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Slide	Posted - 2008.02.01 16:21:00 - [1] Edited by: Slide on 01/02/2008 16:21:49 I fly a Vargur for several weeks now and thought i share what little knowledge i have build up to now. I like this ship, mostly because it whas a nice change after flying a Maelstrom for long. My knowledge is purely based on using Artillery, i dislike AC's in missions, but that might be a personal taste The Vargur has some advantages in missons, better resistances and almost double the cargo size, meaning i can grab more cap batteries with me (altho i hardly ever use one). The 45m/s speed increase is also nice....making me leave the AB home. Major disadvantage is when there are jammers in the mission, it has halve the sensor strength as a Maelstrom, meaning you have to use at least 1 slot to even that out. (Tried it in a mission with jammers without strengthen its sensor, i have been jammed 24 times in that mission). For my fitting that means sacrificing alot of dps, since i use 2 rigs + 2 low slots to have enough powergrid to fit my setup. Could be 1 low slot but i like to have a cap booster fitted, makes room for errors. The dps is roughly the same as in the Maelstrom ( 1400 T2 Artillery), due to the extra falloff the Vargue performs slightly better at 60/70+ km .....but that doesnt happen to often. The extra tracking speed is sometimes noticable when at closer range, but at my preferable 50 km range hardly noticable. My conclusion, if i had to decide the purchase with this knowledge i would not have bought a Vargur, as my Maelstrom has almost the same performance, and is way more flexible due to its absolutely superior powergrid. All this is from personal experience, your views may be different, perfect
Mangus Thermopyle Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.02.01 16:28:00 - [2] Just a little note: NPCs dont care about youe sensor strength, they use % based jamming, so never ever waste slots on sensor strength improvements. I even tested this, set up my BS with 60 or so in sensor strength, and was just as easily jammed as with my default 20.
Slide	Posted - 2008.02.01 16:35:00 - [3] Well the mission where i whas jammed 24 times (true story) whas a matter of bad rolls/luck then? If what you say is true , well that would be cool :-)
P'uck	Posted - 2008.02.01 16:43:00 - [4] dont get me wrong, i dont HAVE a vargur, but ive been looking at its stats and drooling all over it like mad in EFT. i have some thoughts about it, and the first one is: AUTOCANNONS. i cant say it often enough, this ship SCREAMS for autocannons. t2 autocannons, that is, which can load barrage, if you need it. next thing would be ... a falloff rig. throw a web in, for good measure, and youre good to go. if im not being completely stupid that should mean that you can deal with almost any cruiser and bs in every mission. maybe get a faction web with a good slowdown, so you can hit stuff thats trying to **** you off in the magical 11-16 km or so. give it a try. i think this ship wants t2 autocannons to shine.
Hunter Hughes Caldari Multiversal Enterprise Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.01 16:55:00 - [5] honestly i couldnt agree with P'uck more. IT NEEDS AUTOCANNONS!!!. with a falloff rig of course. with that you can hit to 45 reliably (with barrage) and it will have great tracking. Also, try to get a setup that doesnt use cap boosters, if you can, b/c then you will have space for your loot since you can fit 2x tractor beams and 1x salvager. Originally by: GinoShin Edited by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
P'uck	Posted - 2008.02.01 16:57:00 - [6] Edited by: P''uck on 01/02/2008 17:05:02 thanks :) to the OP: you will learn to love ACs. they sound cool, and they do it more often. kerrrPOW kerrrrrPOW kerrrrPOW. its cool. really. edit: 1.25(ship)1.25(skill)1.15(rig)*1.5(barrage) makes for almost 2.7 multiplier on base falloff. you can hit at (low) arty range with much better tracking. if there is the occasional 55km bs you just dash for it. with or without ab, you soon will close the distance to a considerable level. another edit, just for good measure: autocannons are meant to be used in falloff, in case youre wondering.
Sivaz Xzerion Fleet Command	Posted - 2008.02.01 17:04:00 - [7] I own a Vargur and I can say it is definatly a AC boat for sure. The abilities are similar with the maelstrom with its fittings, however I like the Vargur with a couple heavy nos and do the same damage as the maelstrom only with x4 800mm II's. I think its a worth while boat, however would like the price to come down on it so it'll cheaper to pvp with. Right now its quite the expensive pvpers ship or the avid mission runners vessel. If you own one, draw your own conclusion and decide for yourself. --- ]v[
Slide	Posted - 2008.02.01 17:35:00 - [8] Edited by: Slide on 01/02/2008 17:38:26 Thanks for the reply guys, but as i said..i don't like AC's. especialy not in missions where i start at 60+ km and have to chase before i can hit anything......I know its screams for AC's but i had hoped it would perform something better using artillery's then it does now, especialy in comparrison with the Maelstrom. Also don't forget barrage is explosive/kinetic if i am right and in some missions absolutely not the best of damage you can do, meaning you loose alot of dps on basicly using the wrong ammo against the wrong resistance.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.02.01 17:43:00 - [9] 1) at the range you can hit you dont have to chase your targets anymore in the way youre used to, i bet. its just... you only have to cross a few km and even without ab you are faster than any long range npc bs. considerably faster. 2) base damage of ACs is a higher due to the rof (means more wreckings, too). give it a try, i bet it wont feel like your average ac boat. and the sweet tracking! oooh the tracking ;) really. the vargur is THE pve turret ship you always wanted, im pretty sure. give them acs a chance.
Slide	Posted - 2008.02.01 17:55:00 - [10] I hardly doubt that 180m/s is fast enough to chase targets without a AB, but thats beside the point.....at some point i will try the AC II and who knows. Unfortunate i only have artillery tech 2 trained But my other conclusion stands, if you use artillery, the Vargur performs, but not that much better then a Maelstrom.
Sivaz Xzerion Fleet Command	Posted - 2008.02.01 18:43:00 - [11] definatly train up those ac's man, the typical AC boat does go out the window in this case. I have all my gunnery skills maxed in minmatar to tech 2 lvl 5's, and the marauder skill trainning lvl 5 atm, you will not be dissapointed in the Vargur's performance in pvp or pve. It's a definate win, only price of the ship is staggering, but given what it does with only 4 guns, I think its worth it. I'll be sticking with my Maelstorm for pvp though until Vargur price comes down. Lets hope for the best and good luck with your AC II trainning --- ]v[
Slide	Posted - 2008.02.01 19:56:00 - [12] Edited by: Slide on 01/02/2008 19:56:51 Done a mission with 4 650 scout , didnt have 800's and to lazy to jump 7 times to buy m. I admit damage wise they seem to work fairly good. But if you warp in a mission where you have lets say 3 groups, normaly wile i advance them when starting at say 60/70km i one shot the frigates and 1 volley cruisers on the way. With AC's equipped i couldnt do anything for the first 30/40 km, granted i didnt have AC II but still. Yet another problem whas when i chased a BS and sticked within a decent range (anywhere from 3 to 20ish km) chances where that the next BS took more distance as time passed, and ended up at 50ish km once the other BS whas gone. Again 20 to 25km of wasted time where i can't do any damage, apart maybe from sticking drone, if they werent busy taking out the frigates wich i was not able to one shot earlier because you can't with AC's
Kateryne Minmatar Quantum Quandry	Posted - 2008.02.01 19:56:00 - [13] With the upcoming resistance change - i can see the Vargur also seeing slightly more action in PVP, where it's high EM and EXP damage will be able to be brought to bear more often. 800mm auto IIs with barrage and falloff rigs will pretty much give you over 50km of pure carnage...
Slide	Posted - 2008.02.01 20:04:00 - [14] Edited by: Slide on 01/02/2008 20:06:50 Uhm your setup would end up with something like 6 + 56 km if i am right, meaning at 62km you have a chance to hit of 50%, at 34 thats 75% wich is starting to get reasonable. I am by no means a expert in this stuff but i wouldnt call that 50km of carnage, you still have to be at 30ish km to really start to dish out the real damage wouldn't you? Hmm i just remind that there has been a very indebt thread about all this earlier, i started this thread to share my experience with artillery and the Vargur. We all know that the bonius of this ship ases for AC's.
350125GO White Nova Industries	Posted - 2008.02.01 20:07:00 - [15] I'm not discounting the AC option, but why 1400's for missions. Drop to 1200mm IIs and you can ditch a rig or low slot (or two) for something more usefull. Especially if you're only staying at 50km range. Just by using proton you can hit from 50km with 1200's with nuclear up to 70km. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Slide	Posted - 2008.02.01 20:09:00 - [16] Edited by: Slide on 01/02/2008 20:10:34 I swap at times, but dont be mistaken by the absolute carnage 1400's do in missions For that i only use Phased plasma, EMP and sabot..ranging anywhere from 30 to 52 optimum range and maximize damage.
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:10:00 - [17] Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 01/02/2008 22:13:08 Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 01/02/2008 22:11:09 It's good to see some feedback on running missions with this ship. A few notes and things to try. * try using a medium cap booster (800's) and you might not need 4 fitting mods. They typically give enough cap to get you through a tight spot. This can let you fit 4 gyros. * The vargur doesnt really need TE's or TC's since it have amazing falloff and tracking. You lose no more than 4% dmg between 50km-75km, and do more damage at all other ranges (vargur with no TE/TC vs Maelstrom with 1xTC/2xTE). A single TC(optimal) mitigates this. Go for a 4th gyro if you can * to the poster above re 1200's vs 1400's: 1200's with 4 gyros do about the same damage as 1400's with 3. That low slot difference will let you fit the 1400's. The 1200's have more tracking, but the 1400's have superior range and alpha. * You can talk up the uber EFT damage of autocannons all you want. Artillery will still out DPS AC's past 45km, and that assumes the AC's user is a) using barrage b) using 3x falloff rigs and c) fighting angels. It drops to 25km if you aren't using barrage and falloff rigs. Conversely, AC's do more below that range, but still need to be at ~15km to do max DPS. At least barrage packs good Kinetic damage as well it isnt a complete waste except on Sansha/bloodraiders.
Slide	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:22:00 - [18] Edited by: Slide on 01/02/2008 22:23:54 Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis * try using a medium cap booster (800's) and you might not need 4 fitting mods. They typically give enough cap to get you through a tight spot. This can let you fit 4 gyros. Excellent suggestion . Why i never thought of a medium booster goes beyond me, and yes if i need cap badly its always a little like 2 batteries or something, before i solved most troublesome dps. A medium is more then enough.
Mysteriax Eve University	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:08:00 - [19] Why compare a Vargur (which was supposedly made for missions) with the 2nd best Minmatar mission boat. Compare it to the Typhoon, minmatars best mission boat currently imo. Good DPS with a combo op drones and cruise missiles and a little bit with Arty's. Can bring 5 med and 5 heavy drones. Has a Good tank with 2 Lar or 1 Lar 1 Mar and nanobot accelerator + it can be all run cap stable with 2 BCS2 in Low slot. 1 BCS2 if you really want a good tank and use 4 hardeners, which aren't needed for 90% of the level 4 missions. Also the Typhoon isn't as slow and bulky as the Mael.
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Mysteriax Why compare a Vargur (which was supposedly made for missions) with the 2nd best Minmatar mission boat. * Because you need a lot more skill points in missiles and drones that the average minmatar level 4 mission runner has to make the Typhoon superior to the Maelstrom. You really need T2 heavy drones, T2 cruise, and T2 projectiles to get better DPS than on a Mael. Even then it is marginal. In a full T1 setup, the Mael will out DPS the Typhoon. Once you get T2 projectiles, the Mael wins by a huge margin until you get T2 heavies and T2 cruise. * The Vargur and the Mael have the same slot layout, they are both shield tankers, and have the same bonuses. Makes it very easy to compare them. * All 3 ships can tank well enough.
Meha Mott Minmatar Carebear Research and Produktion Agency	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:32:00 - [21] I love my Vargur, it is an insane boost to mission running. High: 4 x 800 mm Autos II 3 x Tractorbeam Med. Gist b-type xl 2 x Caldary Navy Invul 2 x Caldary Navy Ampli 1 x Cap recharger II Low: 2 x Cap Flux coil II 3 x Republic Fleet Gyrostab Rigs: 2 x Ambit Extension II With 5% Imps, permarun all mods, and with barrage, its no prob to pop Frigs and Cruiser at max lock range. (93 km with my skills and imps) Sorry for my bad english.
Hotice	Posted - 2008.02.02 05:19:00 - [22] Edited by: Hotice on 02/02/2008 05:20:05 The whole point of running mission is to make money. Using T2 ammo is kind of a waste. Navy ammo is different story since you can buy them with LPs. However, AC with high ROF means you go through t2 ammo at a very high rate. Compare to t2 1400mm arti with t1 ammo, AC with t2 ammo just wouldn't be very cost effective. When it comes to missions, arti is the way to go. Using AC and T2 ammo is just plain not practical unless you got a barrage bpo. For fun, I can see that but for long term money making, I would say no to AC with t2 ammo.
Meha Mott Minmatar Carebear Research and Produktion Agency	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:17:00 - [23] I invent and produce the T2 Barrage for myself, price for a single shot is round about 150 isk, and i only use it, to kill nasty frigs and cruiser (damp, scramble and jammer) and the rare case of long range orbiting BS. For the rest i use Rep fleet ammo from the LP shop, and it works great. I have 44 km falloff range, and i start to shot at 40 km, because of the tractor beam range. With the tracing bonus its no prob to shot dowm cruiser from 5 km + orbit range, but normaly they never arraive me, because thy pop so fast when they try to come in range. Sorry for my bad english.
Mysteriax Eve University	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:19:00 - [24] Edited by: Mysteriax on 02/02/2008 12:21:12 Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Originally by: Mysteriax Why compare a Vargur (which was supposedly made for missions) with the 2nd best Minmatar mission boat. * Because you need a lot more skill points in missiles and drones that the average minmatar level 4 mission runner has to make the Typhoon superior to the Maelstrom. You really need T2 heavy drones, T2 cruise, and T2 projectiles to get better DPS than on a Mael. Even then it is marginal. In a full T1 setup, the Mael will out DPS the Typhoon. Once you get T2 projectiles, the Mael wins by a huge margin until you get T2 heavies and T2 cruise. * The Vargur and the Mael have the same slot layout, they are both shield tankers, and have the same bonuses. Makes it very easy to compare them. * All 3 ships can tank well enough. In a T1 Fit with level 5 skills and My own skillpoints the Typhoon outdamages the maelstrom. Also the phoon doesnt have the same amount of problems with reload as the mael. With Drones and missiles as your main weapons you dont have to worry much about tracking and falloff. The maelstrom misses allot while the phoon only has to worry about defender missiles. In a T2 Fit with the Phoon having T2 drones and the Mael T2 arties the Phoon wins again. I agree to fully master the typhoon you need allot more skills but you don't really need T2 Cruise and T2 arties. Also good drone skills are nice for most minmatar ships. The Mael has a better tank but it uses allot more Cap then my own Typhoons tank. Cant get a Mael with 2 damage mods even remotely cap stable tank runs out in 3-4 Minutes. Cap Stable tank = Less problems if lag hits. I also was thinking since the phoon armor tanks and the mael shield tanks why not use the phoon for EM/Them missions and the Mael for the Angel missions. Kin/Therm The phoon again because of the better DPS :P but you can use the Mael aswell :P PS in both fits I used 2 Damage mods in lows for Mael 8 1400mm arties and 4 Ogre 1. Phoon 4 Cruise missiles 3 1200mm Arties and 1 Drone link augmentor and 5 Ogre 1's (Hammerhead 2's as for cruisers and frigs as backup. Love the 175m3 drone bay)
Slide	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Slide on 02/02/2008 12:36:13 I think it comes down to preference alot. For me the Maelstrom works better in missions then the Typhoon did. And i used the Phoon for quiet a long time. With 3 gyro's and 8 x 1400 II i eat most missoins very fast. The only thing it doesnt have is a perma tank, wich indeed would be handy in laggy situations. But i can tell you the 37.5% boost,(ship bonus), for the shield booster makes up alot in tankability. So for me the Maelstrom is the best missionship and thus i compare the Vargur with that ship And to Hotice, who claims that "The whole point of running mission is to make money", that might be for you, but i can asure you that: I do missions because i actualy find them fun to do. Why else would i invest my time in that if it wasnt fun, else i might aswell earn cash in the real world if it whas like work or something for me
Lunarmist	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:00:00 - [26] Originally by: Slide Edited by: Slide on 02/02/2008 12:36:13 I think it comes down to preference alot. For me the Maelstrom works better in missions then the Typhoon did. And i used the Phoon for quiet a long time. With 3 gyro's and 8 x 1400 II i eat most missoins very fast. The only thing it doesnt have is a perma tank, wich indeed would be handy in laggy situations. But i can tell you the 37.5% boost,(ship bonus), for the shield booster makes up alot in tankability. So for me the Maelstrom is the best missionship and thus i compare the Vargur with that ship And to Hotice, who claims that "The whole point of running mission is to make money", that might be for you, but i can asure you that: I do missions because i actualy find them fun to do. Why else would i invest my time in that if it wasnt fun, else i might aswell earn cash in the real world if it whas like work or something for me You really need to learn reading within the context here. I think he means compare the cost per mission between using normal ammo and t2 ones. I doubt he means doing missions just to make ISK. Like he said, unless you got a t2 ammo bpo, otherwise using it along with AC is very costly.
Slide	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:30:00 - [27] Edited by: Slide on 02/02/2008 17:33:48 I have no idea who needs to learn to read within the context, but the point i tried to make was pretty clear i thought, let me refrase it. I don't care for the isk per hour ratio, in the end of the Eve day its the fun i had wich counts, for me, but thats all a matter of personal taste.
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:53:00 - [28] I apologize in advanced for the thread derail. If this wasnt somewhat related, I wouldn't bother. You need a solid baseline for a mission ship to compare the Vargur to. Originally by: Mysteriax In a T1 Fit with level 5 skills T1 fit with all level 5 skills completely misses my point and is rediculous. Originally by: Mysteriax and My own skillpoints the Typhoon outdamages the maelstrom. Of course if you fly a Typhoon often your skill set will reflect this. My claim was that the average minmatar player starting level 4 missions does not have as many skill points in drones and missiles ad they do in gunnery. With my skills, i get much much less DPS out of a Typhoon vs Mael, but I've focused almost exclusively on gunnery. My point is you have to train specifically for the Typhoon to maximize it DPS, and its a long road for minimal gains over a Mael. Originally by: Mysteriax Also the phoon doesnt have the same amount of problems with reload as the mael. There is a check box in EFT to take reload into account for DPS. There is nothing in particular about a Mael that makes it need to reload more often. Its not like cruise launchers dont need to reload. Originally by: Mysteriax With Drones and missiles as your main weapons you dont have to worry much about tracking and falloff. The maelstrom misses allot while the phoon only has to worry about defender missiles. Drones have limited range, heavies take 3 years to get to the target, and missiles do lowered dmg vs moving/smaller targets. If you learn to manage an after burner, you can make tracking a non-issue. It balances out in the end. The only real counter point is picking your dmg type with the missiles/drones, but thats somewhat negated by the mael being able to use ALL of its high slots out to lock range (4xcrusie + 4xarties does not fit well on a Phoon). Originally by: Mysteriax In a T2 Fit with the Phoon having T2 drones and the Mael T2 arties the Phoon wins again. I agree to fully master the typhoon you need allot more skills but you don't really need T2 Cruise and T2 arties. Also good drone skills are nice for most minmatar ships. But with ONLY T2 guns, the Mael wins, hence my training time point. Originally by: Mysteriax The Mael has a better tank but it uses allot more Cap then my own Typhoons tank. Cant get a Mael with 2 damage mods even remotely cap stable tank runs out in 3-4 Minutes. Cap Stable tank = Less problems if lag hits. The mael doesn't need to be anywhere cap stable to run missions. Throw on a boost amp and a large booster if you want it be less cap hungry and a perma run setup. It will be just as cap efficient per repair amount as an armor repper with the ship bonus. But for the high DPS missions, nothing really beats a XL booster and a cap booster for tanking 1000+ DPS (angel bonus room). I agree that armor tanking/perma run is more lag proof. Originally by: Mysteriax I also was thinking since the phoon armor tanks and the mael shield tanks why not use the phoon for EM/Them missions and the Mael for the Angel missions. Kin/Therm The phoon again because of the better DPS :P but you can use the Mael aswell :P Good call. That is my long term plan as well, but I lack the missile skills to make it worth it. The Mael in Angel missions is a cake walk, and they make me the most ISK/hour. Originally by: Mysteriax PS in both fits I used 2 Damage mods in lows for Mael 8 1400mm arties and 4 Ogre 1. Phoon 4 Cruise missiles 3 1200mm Arties and 1 Drone link augmentor and 5 Ogre 1's (Hammerhead 2's as for cruisers and frigs as backup. Love the 175m3 drone bay) There is part of the problem. I run 4x damage mods and 10x medium drones on my mael. You need the mediums to handle small ships and the 3rd + 4th damage mod actually gives a good DPS bump. Also all of the ZOMG max DPS typhoon fits ive seen have 4xAC's instead of 3x arty+ drone links. At max skills, 4x gyro T2 mael will out DPS a 2x BCU T2 typhoon with only 3 arti
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:06:00 - [29] Originally by: Hotice Edited by: Hotice on 02/02/2008 05:20:05 The whole point of running mission is to make money. Using T2 ammo is kind of a waste. Navy ammo is different story since you can buy them with LPs. This is pretty flawed logic from some one pointing out the financial problems with T2 ammo/RF ammo. Seeing RF ammo as "free" is just as bad as miners thinking the minerals they mine are "free". If any single RF ammo L sells for more than barrage L, then its cheaper to cash out your LP, sell said RF ammo, and buy barrage L. Just because you make it yourself does not change the opportunity cost of not selling it on the market. It really comes down to 15% more dmg = faster missions = more ISK/hour. If you make 20mil an hour and RF ammo lets you make 23mil an hour, its worth it if you used less than 3mil in ammo during that hour. If you dotn care about ISK/hour and play for fun.... well i have more fun killing faster personally.
Hotice	Posted - 2008.02.02 20:58:00 - [30] What is so flawed about that? AC setup is clearly not as good as if Vargur could use 4 t2 1400 artillery. All the other Maruaders can use the largest guns without issue. This is not a matter of choice made by players. It is a decision made by dev people. This is what I considered as a bad decision on the ccp part. Maelstorm is right on part as Vargur when it comes to doing missions. 1 volley can kill cruisers and even bc pretty often. That is using t1 ammo. T2 ammo decision is nothing but a bandaid fix to the short coming of the ship. It is a waste of money compare to the other marauder ships. I use nightmare for blood raider/sansha missions, Kronos for Gruistas and Torp golem for angel missions. All use just t1 ammo and does missions really quickly. I have tried Vargur for a few days, I cannot find a role for this ship against any faction other than angels. Even that is not as good as a torp golem. At the end, I rather see Vargur to be able to use 1400mm guns just like all other ships of it's class. Leave the weapon choice to players. Only at then, ammo/weapon choice we make would be based on purely fun. Right now, that decision is made by the ccp and that to me is not fun. Only thing left is a decision on how much money would you willing to waste. About LP and such. We get LP as we do missions. I use navy ammo a lot since I have tons of LP. If I got t2 ammo bpo, I would be using t2 ammo more aften too. However, I don't just go out and buy navy ammo/t2 ammo with isk. ISK is not the issue here really, it is about effeciency. Transport ammo around between missions is not fun in my book. So, at the end, using Vargur for mission purpose is not that good right now. Maelstorm can do it just as good at 1/5th of the cost with all normal guns and ammo. With Mach, it would be even more stylish as well. Vargur cannot justify it's cost at it's current stats. Other than the longer tractor beam range, Vargur offers nothing but more cost per mission than Maelstorm. I have and fly all of them, Vargur is by far the worst one when it comes down to doing missions. It is not a very cost effective ship.

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