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Dark Shikari Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:43:00 - [61] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/02/2008 22:46:55 Originally by: Lord MuffloN Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Joseph 9 Given what you just said Bish the US definition of liberalism is utterly utterly unrelated to European liberalism. European liberalism is entriely to do with the personal freedoms of the populace. And whilst it is often associated with left wing parties and policies this is by no means a requirement of liberalism. European liberalism is much more related to the US version of social libertarianism than US "liberalism." I've read this ten times now, and I don't get what you mean DS Clarification for the social liberalist (European version of course ) being me please? A social libertarian believes that the government has absolutely no business making laws on what people do in their bedrooms. More specifically, they believe that anything should be legal that doesn't affect others--the government should not be able to outlaw marjiuana, oral sex, gay marriage, or anything of that sort--its simply not the government's business to legislate morals. The Netherlands is a good example of a country that is socially libertarian. Social libertarians tend to split on topics of the legality of actions that affect others indirectly. Examples include smoking in public areas; second-hand smoke is definitely a health issue for others, so it can potentially be outlawed without opposing social libertarian principles. Another example would be the more harmful drugs, such as crack cocaine--while on the one hand nobody should care if you screw your brain up with drugs, with a public health system, the state (and therefore taxpayers) may have to pay for the consequences of your mistakes. This is in contrast to an economic libertarian, who believes in unregulated free-market capitalism. Of course, these are not mutually exclusive. The opposite of a social libertarian is a Dominionist, such as Mike Huckabee; someone who believes that it is the government's job to legislate morals, in particular religious morals. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Lord MuffloN Caldari Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:46:00 - [62] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/02/2008 22:43:17 Originally by: Lord MuffloN Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Joseph 9 Given what you just said Bish the US definition of liberalism is utterly utterly unrelated to European liberalism. European liberalism is entriely to do with the personal freedoms of the populace. And whilst it is often associated with left wing parties and policies this is by no means a requirement of liberalism. European liberalism is much more related to the US version of social libertarianism than US "liberalism." I've read this ten times now, and I don't get what you mean DS Clarification for the social liberalist (European version of course ) being me please? A social libertarian believes that the government has absolutely no business making laws on what people do in their bedrooms. More specifically, they believe that anything should be legal that doesn't affect others--the government should not be able to outlaw marjiuana, oral sex, gay marriage, or anything of that sort--its simply not the government's business to legislate morals. The Netherlands is a good example of a country that is socially libertarian. This is in contrast to an economic libertarian, who believes in unregulated free-market capitalism. Sounds pretty much like me, though I'm still in for the idea to regulate marjiuana in some way, though a scary thing about it is that the last time the UN did a "report" on it it was proven to be less harmful then cigarettes Originally by: Jago Kain If they ever decide to award a Nobel Prize for Emo, Lord MuffloN is a sure fire winner of the first on
Dark Shikari Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:49:00 - [63] Originally by: Lord MuffloN Sounds pretty much like me, though I'm still in for the idea to regulate marjiuana in some way, though a scary thing about it is that the last time the UN did a "report" on it it was proven to be less harmful then cigarettes Social libertarianism is one of those forgotten beliefs in the United States; though there are probably tens of millions of people who believe in it, there are so many more evangelicals who are willing to come out in force against it. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:53:00 - [64] Originally by: Michael Banaird I have just heard from a source within military intelligence that after the election this year there will be a draft of 18 to 26 year olds for the army and navy. If they do not get enough people with that age range, they will be going to 18 to 30 year olds. Talk to your representative, senator or official being elected about this. P.S. - I am not against the military, just the draft and how the government is hiding this information until after the election. Bull **. EVE RELATED CONTENT**
Kalahari Wayrest	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:56:00 - [65] Quote: The presence of a draft indicates the willingness of the individuals of a nation to give something from their own lives to serve their fellow citizens. No, volunteering would indicate that. Given it's mandatory, willingness has little to do with it. __________________________ Indulge Me Consider Yourself Indulged - Immy ♥ Wow immy scored - Xorus
Dark Shikari Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:58:00 - [66] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/02/2008 22:58:10 Originally by: Kalahari Wayrest Quote: The presence of a draft indicates the willingness of the individuals of a nation to give something from their own lives to serve their fellow citizens. No, volunteering would indicate that. Given it's mandatory, willingness has little to do with it. If the vast majority of a population opposes it, a draft doesn't work unless you're willing to enforce a police state. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Orion Eridanus Dark Nova Crisis	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:59:00 - [67] OP you are a moron. If there is a need for more troops why is the Marines only calling up 2500 troops at a time, and of that 2500 only 700 only actually being returned to active duty for only 1 year of their 3-4 year mandatory reserve contract. And of that 700 why is only 300 in the infantry, and why is the majority of it Non-commisioned officers? If there was really a need for us dont you think they would implement stop loss and call back all of us that are in the IRR at the same time? Would make a lot more sense to keep the people that have already been trained in instead of wasting time training people who have no desire to serve anyone but themselves and would be a burden on the rest of us and the system. Oh btw IBTL Originally by: Paulo Damarr That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
Ademaro Imre Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.01 23:08:00 - [68] Originally by: Michael Banaird I have just heard from a source within military intelligence that after the election this year there will be a draft of 18 to 26 year olds for the army and navy. If they do not get enough people with that age range, they will be going to 18 to 30 year olds. Talk to your representative, senator or official being elected about this. P.S. - I am not against the military, just the draft and how the government is hiding this information until after the election. There are some ****s in your tinfoil hat. Upgrade to the tech 2 version which is solid aluminum, and get the Tin Man outfit. The aim of politics is to keep the populace alarmed and clamorous to be saved by menacing it with imaginary hobgoblins. The urge to save humanity is a false front for the urge to rule it.*
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2008.02.01 23:42:00 - [69] At least you get drafted by your own country. When you get drafted to fight for a country that's not your own, that's when it REALLY sucks.
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:00:00 - [70] So any of you all-knowing youropeein (sp?) folks mind telling me what kind of beliefs I hold using your "proper" definitions? Govt. should have very little or no control over the market Govt. should have no say on any social matter (including things that might effect others) Govt. should NOT provide medical, housing or any other kind of service along those lines unless set up by a lower govt. (like the state govt.) 2. Since this looks to be locked soon by due to being political Id like to point you guys to a forum a friend of mine has started up just for stuff like this. http://debate.pro-forums.com/index.php Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
Dark Shikari Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:04:00 - [71] Originally by: pwnedgato Govt. should have very little or no control over the market Economic libertarianism. Originally by: pwnedgato Govt. should have no say on any social matter (including things that might effect others) Social libertarianism. Originally by: pwnedgato Govt. should NOT provide medical, housing or any other kind of service along those lines unless set up by a lower govt. (like the state govt.) Extreme federalism. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:24:00 - [72] I thought the last one was just pain republican...
Dark Shikari Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:29:00 - [73] Originally by: Shameless Avenger I thought the last one was just pain republican... That hasn't been true since the 70s. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:32:00 - [74] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: pwnedgato Govt. should NOT provide medical, housing or any other kind of service along those lines unless set up by a lower govt. (like the state govt.) Extreme federalism. Well on that one I only say it because of the very high level of diversity of the US. What works in one area probably wouldn't work elsewhere or could at least be much better. Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
Dark Shikari Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:16:00 - [75] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 02/02/2008 01:16:21 Originally by: pwnedgato Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: pwnedgato Govt. should NOT provide medical, housing or any other kind of service along those lines unless set up by a lower govt. (like the state govt.) Extreme federalism. Well on that one I only say it because of the very high level of diversity of the US. What works in one area probably wouldn't work elsewhere or could at least be much better. In most cases, I'd probably agree with you. There are, however, some things that make more sense on a national level. One example would be veteran's health care; my stepfather is quite high up in the VA and from what I know from him, there's a reason its one of the most effective health care services in the US; they have a unified medical information system that allows doctors to instantly know everything they need to know about their patients, wherever they are. The vast population of "snowbird" veterans that live in the South in the winter and the North in the summer would completely screw up any state-run medical system. (The other reason the VA is good is they negotiate with health care providers; Medicare has been legally barred from doing this.) Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:19:00 - [76] I'd think that the VA would take supremacy over any state level healthcare system (you know that whole supremacy clause thingy) Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
Dark Shikari Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:21:00 - [77] Originally by: pwnedgato I'd think that the VA would take supremacy over any state level healthcare system (you know that whole supremacy clause thingy) Of course. My point being that the state governments can't take over everything the national government does. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:25:00 - [78] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: pwnedgato I'd think that the VA would take supremacy over any state level healthcare system (you know that whole supremacy clause thingy) Of course. My point being that the state governments can't take over everything the national government does. No of course not. Personally I'd like to see education moved up the federal level (damn department of education doesn't do anything as is) Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:26:00 - [79] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: pwnedgato I'd think that the VA would take supremacy over any state level healthcare system (you know that whole supremacy clause thingy) Of course. My point being that the state governments can't take over everything the national government does. No of course not. Personally I'd like to see education moved up to the federal level (damn department of education doesn't do anything as is) Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
Dark Shikari Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:26:00 - [80] Originally by: pwnedgato Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: pwnedgato I'd think that the VA would take supremacy over any state level healthcare system (you know that whole supremacy clause thingy) Of course. My point being that the state governments can't take over everything the national government does. No of course not. Personally I'd like to see education moved up the federal level (damn department of education doesn't do anything as is) They tried that. The result was "no child left behind," also known as "gigantic megafail." Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:59:00 - [81] Originally by: Dark Shikari ... The result was "no child left behind," also known as "gigantic megafail." ... Really? I was under the impression that the "no chid left behind" was a great success, at least here in FL.
Dark Shikari Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.02 02:30:00 - [82] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 02/02/2008 02:30:05 Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Dark Shikari ... The result was "no child left behind," also known as "gigantic megafail." ... Really? I was under the impression that the "no chid left behind" was a great success, at least here in FL. Are you kidding me? Its one of the worst educational policies in national history--it intentionally kept behind all the high-performing kids in a desperate attempt to help the idiots. The result was a complete crippling of many schools as they funneled the vast majority of their money to help the couple kids who were "left behind" (since it was an unfunded mandate) as they gutted their programs for high-performing students. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.02.02 02:36:00 - [83] Well when I say moved up to the National level I'd like to see all the standardized testing (FCAT, MCAT etc.) nationalized, and I think that the curriculums should be standardized as well. Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2008.02.02 03:37:00 - [84] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 02/02/2008 02:30:05 Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Dark Shikari ... The result was "no child left behind," also known as "gigantic megafail." ... Really? I was under the impression that the "no chid left behind" was a great success, at least here in FL. Are you kidding me? Its one of the worst educational policies in national history--it intentionally kept behind all the high-performing kids in a desperate attempt to help the idiots. The result was a complete crippling of many schools as they funneled the vast majority of their money to help the couple kids who were "left behind" (since it was an unfunded mandate) as they gutted their programs for high-performing students. I'm sorry that you see it that way DS. You see, there are many conditions that can make a child fell behind. Autism for example. Those kids might need more specialized educators to deal with their conditions. That cost more money. I don't think normal kids are gonna get dumber because the govt took the money for their football uniforms to pay for a speech terapist. I do hope you never get an autistic son. By the looks of it, you seem to favor the old method of chaining them in the basement.
Dark Shikari Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.02 03:40:00 - [85] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 02/02/2008 03:44:08 Originally by: Shameless Avenger I'm sorry that you see it that way DS. You see, there are many conditions that can make a child fell behind. Autism for example. Those kids might need more specialized educators to deal with their conditions. That cost more money. I don't think normal kids are gonna get dumber because the govt took the money for their football uniforms to pay for a speech terapist. I do hope you never get an autistic son. By the looks of it, you seem to favor the old method of chaining them in the basement. Learning-disabled kids already got more money than smart ones before No Child Left Behind. They don't need a national government policy that tells them "you must spend more money getting this one kid to pass tests that he will never pass even if it means taking money away from 1000 other kids." I know exactly what you're talking about, because I was brought up with the schools telling me I was "autistic" (I'm not, by any stretch of the term, or any test) and the entire thing is a massive feel-good waste of money for nothing. You don't need to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for a single kid to go to school. Not with my taxpayer money. Its perfectly fine to have extra care for the kids who need it--its not fine to pay multiple "specialists" for each single autistic kid in the school in the hopes that it will get the school past No Child Left Behind (while at the same time gutting all the other school programs in order to serve the four kids that don't need it anyways). If you ask anyone in the educational system, they will tell you that No Child Left Behind was a mistake--it was an attempt for the national government to change school policy without any thought beforehand and without giving them any money to make the changes. And honestly, if you think it is worth sacrificing the education of hundreds of people in the hope you can help the education of one--you're nuts. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Vanthen	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:10:00 - [86] Originally by: Dark Shikari fascist ... only be believable if the Republicans had a ghost of a chance this election. Charles Rangel is a fascist republican? old news And DS is pretty much spot on with No Child Left Behind crap.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:21:00 - [87] Originally by: Dark Shikari Learning-disabled kids already got more money than smart ones before No Child Left Behind. Not everywhere... on many places they used to tell parents "we don't have the personell to deal with your kid therefore we can't accept him in this school". Originally by: Dark Shikari They don't need a national government policy that tells them "you must spend more money getting this one kid to pass tests that he will never pass even if it means taking money away from 1000 other kids." You don't know that he will never pass. He probably will. Originally by: Dark Shikari I know exactly what you're talking about, because I was brought up with the schools telling me I was "autistic" (I'm not, by any stretch of the term, or any test) Good for you. Originally by: Dark Shikari and the entire thing is a massive feel-good waste of money for nothing. Again, is not for nothing, some of these kids are showing great results. Originally by: Dark Shikari You don't need to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for a single kid to go to school. I don't think those numbers are correct. My kid's teacher drives a toyota, not a mercedes. Originally by: Dark Shikari Not with my taxpayer money. And who else's? cuz I'm broke Originally by: Dark Shikari Its perfectly fine to have extra care for the kids who need it There we agree. Originally by: Dark Shikari --its not fine to pay multiple "specialists" for each single autistic kid That depends how you do it. Here for example, the specialists are actually state/county employees that travel to all the schools to provide the tests and stuff. Originally by: Dark Shikari ...in the school in the hopes that it will get the school past No Child Left Behind (while at the same time gutting all the other school programs in order to serve the four kids that don't need it anyways). Examples of those other programs please? Originally by: Dark Shikari If you ask anyone in the educational system, they will tell you that No Child Left Behind was a mistake I have asked, they don't say that. Originally by: Dark Shikari --it was an attempt for the national government to change school policy without any thought beforehand and without giving them any money to make the changes. Govt never thinks beforehand, we all know that one. Originally by: Dark Shikari And honestly, if you think it is worth sacrificing the education of hundreds of people in the hope you can help the education of one--you're nuts. Please don't be vague on a statements like that: "sacrificing the education of hundreds". Come on. You make it sound like if a hundred teachers just got laid off just to accept my kid in school. Drama queen!
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2008.02.02 08:33:00 - [88] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 02/02/2008 02:30:05 Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Dark Shikari ... The result was "no child left behind," also known as "gigantic megafail." ... Really? I was under the impression that the "no chid left behind" was a great success, at least here in FL. Are you kidding me? Its one of the worst educational policies in national history--it intentionally kept behind all the high-performing kids in a desperate attempt to help the idiots. The result was a complete crippling of many schools as they funneled the vast majority of their money to help the couple kids who were "left behind" (since it was an unfunded mandate) as they gutted their programs for high-performing students. Let's also not forget that it moves education in the US even further away from children actually learning by putting emphasis not on teaching, but on passing tests. Or that by emphasizing quantifiables, it moves even more funding away from intangibles like psychology, sociology, philosophy, the arts, physical education, vocational education, etc. Or that it practices collective punishment, penalizing the entire school for a specific subset possessing an unwillingness or inability to learn. Or that it leads to teaching to the baseline, not only due to lack of funding but in order to artificially inflate grades. NCLB is in the process of creating an entire generation of children who will never have art past elementary school, never be taught critical thinking skills, never make or do anything worthwhile during their education, and never truly be challenged. Math, English, standardized test. Repeat ad nauseum. Then they're going to hit college, and with the exception of children in private schools, home schooling, magnet schools, or private tutoring, they will be woefully unprepared. Originally by: Frug Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.02.02 09:30:00 - [89] Originally by: Amarria Black Let's also not forget that it moves education in the US even further away from children actually learning by putting emphasis not on teaching, but on passing tests. Math, English, standardized test. Repeat ad nauseum. ... Then they're going to hit college, and with the exception of children in private schools, home schooling, magnet schools, or private tutoring, they will be woefully unprepared. Sounds depressingly like how education is run here in the UK. I learnt next to nothing in College since the stuff we were taught was pretty irrelevant to the subject and we were only taught it because it was a topic that would appear in an exam. It always seemed to me like the exam boards (particually OCR, curses ) completely missed the point of education It's all theory, theory, theory and no practical. What's the point of being bombarded with the science if you've nothing to actually relate it to? Wonderful, I'm taught the science behind the CPU and how it processes data - was I taught how to set a PC up? or install hardware? configure networks? Nope, not once in a 2-year A-level Computing course.
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2008.02.02 09:36:00 - [90] Too old and already served. The draft would do this country some good as long as we could stay out of conflicts we have no business in.

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