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Praxis1452 The Bastards	Posted - 2008.02.04 23:18:00 - [1] While I know many people love the ishtar I'm just wondering if a PG boost would be too much? For nanoing it's fine as PG is not really a concern for something that uses drones, however I wonder about the bonus placed upon the Ishtar and other drone boats. The 5% damage boost to Medium Hybrid turrets. The Vexor also contains this bonus but as a cruiser it is cheap and insurable, the Ishtar is not. Basically the Ishtar cannot reptank and use one of it's bonus'. For me, the reptank is 2 repper's, 1 plate, DCU, Explosive hard. It needs an mwd and also a medium cap booster. That's a lot of grid for a reptank. Plate tank also works but that makes it slow and plate gank is better done with a deimos. It only has 3 turret hardpoints making one of it's bonus' less effective, not to mention that it's incredibly hard to fit electron blasters onto it. As a railboat the Ishtar can fit upto 200mm railguns if nano'd but even then grid is not an issue, however tracking with railguns is crap and I have seen many builds posted on the forums that use light rails. If the bonus is unused perhaps it may be better to change it? Perhaps a bonus to mwd speed or to tracking? so that medium rails can actually be fit effectively. Just a few thoughts. Please, don't just go, it's good enough as it is nano'd, no need to boost. I'd like to know why a different bonus would neccessarily be unbalanced etc. Perhaps I'm just trying to find a role for HAC's when they themselves are the limiting factor. I mean Vagabond is pretty much only a nano-ship, Deimos Gank, etc. It just seems that the Ishtar while being very versatile in slots is still lacking a niche other than nano. Thanks. ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it.ö
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.02.04 23:25:00 - [2] Or maybe it needs a nerf instead? Or its just fine...
Praxis1452 The Bastards	Posted - 2008.02.04 23:34:00 - [3] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Or maybe it needs a nerf instead? Or its just fine... Why thank your for fitting that idea into such a concise format. It's such a wonderful line, it includes all the neccessary detail to formulate an accurate opinion and also contributes something to the thread. Oh wait.... ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it.ö
Terraisa Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.05 03:33:00 - [4] A PG boost would be nice but after seeing what CCP did to the Deimos, I really don't want them messing with the Ishtar at all. Fix local with automatic scanners
wide Gallente Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.05 10:49:00 - [5] From the Item database: Quote: the Ishtar design is the furthest CreoDron have ever gone towards creating a completely dedicated drone carrier. most people work around the limitations to take advantage of its drone, not tanking capability.
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.02.05 11:10:00 - [6] Originally by: wide Edit: If anything, dropping the medium hybrid dmg bonus for a 12.5~15% drone damage/hit points bonus would be very nice. Yeah, that wouldnt make it overpowered or anything would it...
Cornette Gallente Black Screen of Death HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.02.05 12:30:00 - [7] I fitted a tanking Ishtar-setup yesterday using only tech 2 and best named. That left me with almost no cpu left to fit the last two high-slots, leaving them useless. The only way I could get more cpu is either to gimp my tank or use faction, but you shouldn't have to do that to fit a decent setup on a tech 2 ship. So to strenghten the Isthar I would like to see: a small increase in cpu +15, and a fourth gunslot.
Pattern Clarc Quam Singulari The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.05 13:04:00 - [8] needs alot more cpu if anything, drone modules are a ****** to fit.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.02.05 15:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Pattern Clarc needs alot more cpu if anything, drone modules are a ****** to fit. Cool, I'm not the only thinking this!! I made a post some time ago explaining how I could not fit a proper tank and drone modules, even downgrading the guns to oblivion... Most people told me 'nano it', but as a mission fit, nanoing instead of tanking... It's a damn gallente ship that should armor tank! And if it has 5 med slots, it's for drone modules, not for shield tanking!!! What the ishtar doesn't need : a firepower boost. What the ishtar needs : CPU which allows for more drone survivability because of drone modules and drone flexibility. My current ishtar fit (for missions) uses only one drone link augmentor and I can't usually fit other drone modules without nerfing the tank (using resistance platings instead of energized - and no, not adaptive ones, resistance specific ones). To save up a handful of CPU points, I ended on using faction and deadspace stuff, this includes darkblood/amarrnavy/truesansha energized or hardeners and the armor repairer is down to using 'meditation' medium armor repairer which is totally outpriced. My fit uses a small remote armor repairer for drone maintenance between pockets... As there is plenty CPU left on PvP fits, boosting the ishtar's CPU wouldn't make it a PvP beast, just allow us to fit it properly for missions! PS : It's the 2nd lowest CPU HAS and at the same time, it has the most CPU expensive weapon specific equipement! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Arcord Gallente Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2008.02.05 15:29:00 - [10] Edited by: Arcord on 05/02/2008 15:29:46 Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Originally by: wide Edit: If anything, dropping the medium hybrid dmg bonus for a 12.5~15% drone damage/hit points bonus would be very nice. Yeah, that wouldnt make it overpowered or anything would it... omg and who are you troll? ishtar really needs some kind of a pg/cpu boost...currently its prolly the only ship with complately useless high slots...because honestly what do you guys fit there? i have 3x 150mm rails lol its a drone carrier, let us actually fit some drone focused modules or just anything more useful than empty slots...and about that damage bonus...thats a joke on the other hand, every time i read dev blog i am afraid what they come up with...myrmidon, eos, deimos...which gallente ship is next? way to go CCP
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.02.05 15:39:00 - [11] Originally by: Arcord Edited by: Arcord on 05/02/2008 15:29:46 Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Originally by: wide Edit: If anything, dropping the medium hybrid dmg bonus for a 12.5~15% drone damage/hit points bonus would be very nice. Yeah, that wouldnt make it overpowered or anything would it... omg and who are you troll? ishtar really needs some kind of a pg/cpu boost...currently its prolly the only ship with complately useless high slots...because honestly what do you guys fit there? i have 3x 150mm rails lol its a drone carrier, let us actually fit some drone focused modules or just anything more useful than empty slots...and about that damage bonus...thats a joke on the other hand, every time i read dev blog i am afraid what they come up with...myrmidon, eos, deimos...which gallente ship is next? way to go CCP Use as intended, tank it and use drones + blasters and nos. Dont come whining because its not the perfect nano machine. Its good enough and with increased drones damage and loss of hybrid bonus this ship would ONLY be viable as a overpowered nano ship. This is what you want, a new pimp mobile for gallente because of recent eos and myrmidon loss. If you wanna nano it, go ahead but youll miss out on some of its bonus doing so but dont ask for stupid changes like giving even more drone damage and removing hybrid bonuses. Not going to happen...
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.02.05 15:48:00 - [12] A drone speed+tracking (tracking because speed directly nerfs its own tracking when orbiting) bonus could make a useful one. It would loose 0.75 turret by loosing the turret bonus... I don't think the ishtar's turrets are worth it, becaus you won't fit much damage mods for just 3 and you won't hit anything in a nanofit and drone survivbility is better than turret damage in the ishtar. Slightly faster drones means that you really really need to web them to shoot or that smartbomb is the only smart counter. But I still think that the only thing needed is the CPU to use the drone modules, then fitting electrons or dial 150mm is really ok for a fully drone oriented ship. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2008.02.05 21:22:00 - [13] If you were really looking to boost drone damage in place of gun damage, then a small bonus would be in order - something like 1 to 2% per level of Gallente cruiser (5 or 10% total, respectively). Extra CPU would be extremely nice, but I doubt we'd get it. The problem with using the Ishtar as blasters and nos/neut is that even post-nerf the Myrmidon does that much better, with the PG to fit tank and gank and injectors and other crap with much better sustainability - there's not much reason not to kite/nano the Ishtar
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:49:00 - [14] Is this really a "boost the Ishtar" thread?
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Originally by: Arcord Edited by: Arcord on 05/02/2008 15:29:46 Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Originally by: wide <Suggestion of an extremely broken fix> <stuff> <stuff> Use as intended, tank it and use drones + blasters and nos. Dont come whining because its not the perfect nano machine. Its good enough and with increased drones damage and loss of hybrid bonus this ship would ONLY be viable as a overpowered nano ship. This is what you want, a new pimp mobile for gallente because of recent eos and myrmidon loss. If you wanna nano it, go ahead but youll miss out on some of its bonus doing so but dont ask for stupid changes like giving even more drone damage and removing hybrid bonuses. Not going to happen... I don't believe the OP asked for it to be the 'perfect nano machine'. From what I got, he was looking for enough fittings to set it up comfortably without having to use 0 PG/CPU mods in the lowslots (i.e. nano fit). Show me this setup that (with named/T2 only, no faction/COSMOS stuff) works as a tank/blaster/nos-mobile. Preferably it should have the ability to tackle. I agree with you that drones+ (electron) blasters is the intent of the ship, but armor tank gear is PG and CPU hungry and blasters are PG and CPU hungry. And for blasters you NEED MWD (oops, there goes another 50 CPU!) And the Ishtar just plain doesn't have much CPU. And no, you're not allowed to use microblasters here, USE that medium hybrid bonus (or why have it there at all?) -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
doctorstupid2 Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.06 04:22:00 - [16] I have played around a little bit with a heavy electron ishtar, single rep and plate, and it wasn't half bad. total bastard to fit, but not bad. ultimately i gave up on it as the dual rep/800mm setup proved much more survivable and as such versatile. What I would like to see, given the vulnerability of drones, is the control range bonus changed to a drone MWD speed bonus; drones get to target faster, back in the bay faster, can keep up with fast targets better... mmmmmm... would make me happy in unmentionable places. MOVIES: Deadspace Deadspace 2
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2008.02.06 04:49:00 - [17] Quote: Is this really a "boost the Ishtar" thread? I thought the same thing when I started reading, but in truth if any Gallente ship was the bastard child, it would probably be the Ishtar. Whilst many moan that their Arazu has bitten it, it still has a very viable and specific role. The Ishtar however, whilst agreed to be a drone boat - gets this really odd hybrid bonus that is of no use. So I disagree that it needs more powergrid. What it needs is a bonus to drone control modules, enabling it to fit these and either nano or tank. Less embarrasment for me anyway when my lossmail to all those****ging nano ishtars shows that I was killed by a dual 150mm railgun! Get rid of those turret slots and make it a true drone boat.
Chencherra Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2008.02.06 16:46:00 - [18] Btw drones are the only weapons that cant be upgraded with damage mods. And the only weapons that can be shot. People who whine about drone boats are mostly those, who are clever enough to shoot the ship instead of the drones. Now if someone comes with " you can instscoop them", try it on a nanoishtar or a tank ishtar. If your drones get webbed, they die, they also die due to lag or smartbombs. And thanks to the last patch they dont recharge their shield instant when back in drone bay.
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.02.06 18:48:00 - [19] Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 06/02/2008 18:48:28 Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Show me this setup that (with named/T2 only, no faction/COSMOS stuff) works as a tank/blaster/nos-mobile. Preferably it should have the ability to tackle. I agree with you that drones+ (electron) blasters is the intent of the ship, but armor tank gear is PG and CPU hungry and blasters are PG and CPU hungry. And for blasters you NEED MWD (oops, there goes another 50 CPU!) And the Ishtar just plain doesn't have much CPU. And no, you're not allowed to use microblasters here, USE that medium hybrid bonus (or why have it there at all?) This for example, fair tank, very high gank: 3xHeavy Eletrctron Blaster II 2xMedium Dim Nos 1x10mn MWD II 1xWarp Disrpt II 1xWeb II 2xCap Reacharger II 1xMARII 1xExplo Hard II 1xEANM II 1xDC II 1xCo-processor II 2xAncillary Current Router Get in range, shut down mwd and the rest including repper runs forever. Ok its rigged, but you rig your nano aswell and these are cheaper. I dont see much problem with this really...you dont have to nano EVERYTHING and then ask ccp to overpower the nano capabilities even more, k?
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.02.06 20:16:00 - [20] ...well? Whats the matter? My fit no good? Everyone so quiet now.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2008.02.06 20:37:00 - [21] Edited by: bldyannoyed on 06/02/2008 20:40:06 That fit is utterly utterly awful. It has a single MAR tank with no HP buffer and obviously has to operate well within web range where its tank will be compeletely overwhelmed by basically anything bigger than frigate. And very high gank. The only thing high around here is you. 450 DPS max from 5 ogre II's plus mebbe 100 more for the blasters. So outganked by the majority of tier II BC,s, an AC Muninn, a Deimos, a new 5 turret Zealot, a 5 turret blaster Eagle, even the Sac with its not staggeringly powerful HAM's isnt far behind. And funnily enough they ALL would have a better tank than that thing. And FFS, THREE slots wasted on fitting mods? Do you actually fly the ship, or is that EFT speaking. Cos if you actually DO use an Ishtar setup like that you deserve to be dragged outside and shot.
Leviathan9 Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.06 22:31:00 - [22] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 06/02/2008 18:48:28 Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Show me this setup that (with named/T2 only, no faction/COSMOS stuff) works as a tank/blaster/nos-mobile. Preferably it should have the ability to tackle. I agree with you that drones+ (electron) blasters is the intent of the ship, but armor tank gear is PG and CPU hungry and blasters are PG and CPU hungry. And for blasters you NEED MWD (oops, there goes another 50 CPU!) And the Ishtar just plain doesn't have much CPU. And no, you're not allowed to use microblasters here, USE that medium hybrid bonus (or why have it there at all?) This for example, fair tank, very high gank: 3xHeavy Eletrctron Blaster II 2xMedium Dim Nos 1x10mn MWD II 1xWarp Disrpt II 1xWeb II 2xCap Reacharger II 1xMARII 1xExplo Hard II 1xEANM II 1xDC II 1xCo-processor II 2xAncillary Current Router Get in range, shut down mwd and the rest including repper runs forever. Ok its rigged, but you rig your nano aswell and these are cheaper. I dont see much problem with this really...you dont have to nano EVERYTHING and then ask ccp to overpower the nano capabilities even more, k? You just proved the OPs point for more PG. Also someone elses point for more CPU... ----------------------------
Lt Angus Caldari the united Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.06 23:31:00 - [23] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 06/02/2008 18:48:28 Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Show me this setup that (with named/T2 only, no faction/COSMOS stuff) works as a tank/blaster/nos-mobile. Preferably it should have the ability to tackle. I agree with you that drones+ (electron) blasters is the intent of the ship, but armor tank gear is PG and CPU hungry and blasters are PG and CPU hungry. And for blasters you NEED MWD (oops, there goes another 50 CPU!) And the Ishtar just plain doesn't have much CPU. And no, you're not allowed to use microblasters here, USE that medium hybrid bonus (or why have it there at all?) This for example, fair tank, very high gank: 3xHeavy Eletrctron Blaster II 2xMedium Dim Nos 1x10mn MWD II 1xWarp Disrpt II 1xWeb II 2xCap Reacharger II 1xMARII 1xExplo Hard II 1xEANM II 1xDC II 1xCo-processor II 2xAncillary Current Router Get in range, shut down mwd and the rest including repper runs forever. Ok its rigged, but you rig your nano aswell and these are cheaper. I dont see much problem with this really...you dont have to nano EVERYTHING and then ask ccp to overpower the nano capabilities even more, k? Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.02.07 10:51:00 - [24] Edited by: Eleana Tomelac on 07/02/2008 10:51:28 About new zealot vs ishtar, I tried it on sisi, but by lack of skills, I had no way of fitting med pulses with something like scorch to have an easy keeping at range... Even with my innapropritate best named beams, I kicked the ishtar, with proper skills and fitting, I would have killed it at less risk and with 1/4 the time. And my fit was crap too. Not much more I can say : an armor tanking ishtar is a damn pain to fit and is not too efficient in PvP. An ishtar will not fit drone modules because of CPU. Tell me just one fit where adding CPU makes it too good? As there is no module upgrading the drone damage. (oh, sentry drone rigs that reduce the already short CPU? just lol at the drone rigs, it ca't fit them because of CPU!!) -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.07 11:17:00 - [25] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 07/02/2008 11:18:39 Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Edited by: Eleana Tomelac on 07/02/2008 10:51:28 About new zealot vs ishtar, I tried it on sisi, but by lack of skills, I had no way of fitting med pulses with something like scorch to have an easy keeping at range... Even with my innapropritate best named beams, I kicked the ishtar, with proper skills and fitting, I would have killed it at less risk and with 1/4 the time. And my fit was crap too. Not much more I can say : an armor tanking ishtar is a damn pain to fit and is not too efficient in PvP. An ishtar will not fit drone modules because of CPU. Tell me just one fit where adding CPU makes it too good? As there is no module upgrading the drone damage. (oh, sentry drone rigs that reduce the already short CPU? just lol at the drone rigs, it ca't fit them because of CPU!!) Dude WTH does an ishtar have to do with a zealot, they are completely different ships. You cant balance them according a 1vs1, your whole story is mute. Fail. Dont overpower ships that are fine already. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.02.07 12:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Dont overpower ships that are fine already. This hasn't answered the main question : how CPU can make the ishtar too good at PvP? Because the only damn way people find to use it in PvP is to nano it which doesn't use much CPU at all! The only ships that can't fit drone modules are the gallente T2 drone ships... -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.07 13:30:00 - [27] A MWD bonus is a big no-no imho given the amount of nano users allready. The drone bonusses the Ishtar gets are fine imho, allthough a drone speed bonus would be nice on top of the range and dps bonus we allready get. It has been suggested plenty of times before but I really do agree with it, given the fact that it's intended to be a drone platform pursang, a role bonus like the covertops are getting a.k.a. 99% reduction in CPU fitting requirements for drone performance enhancement modules. The question this leaves is if drone control units should be included with that or not (the way I said it it wouldnt). This role bonus should apply to the Ishkur and Dominix as well. The hybrid damage bonus is a wastefull bonus imho, tracking would indeed be better suited or even a small hybrid bonus instead of medium hybrid bonus. Another question one may ask is why do you have 5 highslots with only 3 hardpoints, the Ishtar is allready getting a drone control range bonus, so what was the intended purpose of those two remaining slots, was it it cant sustain a tank and 2 neutralizers, Another usefull change for all drone related ships could be to move the drone navigation computer and omnidirectional tracking link from being midslot modules to highslot modules allthough the effect of that may render the use of them on Domi's useless. Moving the drone modules from midslots to highslots will also open up room for drone damage enhancement rigs (i.e. 10% drone damage increase at the cost of 50% all turret damage), pre-nerfing their use on ships not intended as drone carriers. If you combine the role bonus of 99% cpu fitting requirement reduction for drone performance enhancement modules, move all drone modules to be highslot modules and introduce the drone damage mods then it doesn't need more powergrid and the whole hybrid bonus could even be dropped. This approach leaves one pitfall though which relates to the advanced drone interfacing nerf and that is carriers and motherships having to fit drone control units in their highslots to reach maximum number of drones, the obvious solution to that would be to reinstate the advanced drone interfacing skill as it was pre-nerf but only effective for capital ships (could rename it to capital drone interfacing for clarity (for those before the nerf that means adding number of controlled drones without having to fit drone control units). - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Galyrion Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2008.02.07 13:36:00 - [28] The ishtar is by far the most versitile and powerful hac atm. A buff would be insane.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.07 13:39:00 - [29] Originally by: Eleana Tomelac My current ishtar fit (for missions) uses only one drone link augmentor You do realise that fitting a drone link augmentor to an Ishtar is a waste if you have good drone range skills? The Ishtar allready gets a 10% per level drone control range bonus which surpasses the targetting range (77km versus 83km if my math is correct) of your Ishtar with maxed skills (targetting, HAC and drones). This is my NPC Ishtar, currently setup against Guristas: Low: 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Mid: 10MN Afterburner II (can change to MWD for belt ratting) Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II High: Prototype Cloaking Device I Salvager I Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Rigs: Auxiliary Nano Pump I Capacitor Control Circuit I - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.07 13:43:00 - [30] Originally by: Galyrion The ishtar is by far the most versitile and powerful hac atm. A buff would be insane. Next time read before you post, this post discusses nerfing the Ishtar into it's intended role as drone carrier at the cost of some of that versatility, by boosting it's drone ability at the cost of nano/blaster fits. - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...

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