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Lady Arthe Global Tech Solutions	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:38:00 - [31] Global Tech Solutions would definitely be interested in investing a little in this. As a new corp we're looking to expand our assets, and since we specialize in investing this looks quite good. What would be the approximate return rate if this was successful ? -------------------------------------- Building the world of tomorrow Today !
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:44:00 - [32] No probs. Once we have the fineprint down we can offer investors an out if they decide they don't want in any more. 10.7b is currently raised so I would suggest 50% of the funding has been recieved. Now, I am off to read Kwint's proposal
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:51:00 - [33] 500m sent - 50 shares please. That'll be all for now. I admit I got burned quite badly the last time I invested in a POS-based scheme, but this one seems to be a bit more resilient - importantly, it spreads the workload among lots of people. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Lady Arthe Global Tech Solutions	Posted - 2008.02.05 23:58:00 - [34] Global Tech Solutions will take 60 shares for 600 mil here. Isk sent. -------------------------------------- Building the world of tomorrow Today !
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2008.02.06 15:06:00 - [35] 10 shares please. isk being sent now =] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars???
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2008.02.06 16:58:00 - [36] Hi I just wanted to touch base on this. We are currently determining the best course of action, drawing up plans, Kwint has spreadsheets galore, etc. Basically we want to make 100% sure things are going in the right direction before we jump into things. Now things I have learnt thus far: 1) We may offer this as a bond rather than an IPO, with fixed returns (proportionate to the risk involved). 2) We are currently unsure on the way we will deal with things, be it in Bunnz space or elsewhere. A few other things have resurfaced, but I don't want to remove bunnz from the loop either way. I need to speak with the guys (Amarr Citizen and Kwint) before I say too much, as they don't know about this yet. 3) I have spoken with some pretty powerful people in-game and they have reported that the chosen alliance is quite adequate in terms of security etc. Costs with Bunnz, the alliance etc still haven't been secured but will be before anything is finalised. 4) For 50 POS's we are looking at closer to a 70b cost. 5) It's unlikely things will be operational before 1st March with dividends 1.5-2 months afterwards. I don't want to push on this as yet as it isn't confirmed. There is still a fair bit of communication with all the involved parties that needs doing etc. 6) Some of you have already sent funds. 12.4b has been recieved. Now if people want their funds back in the meantime whilst the creases are being ironed out please evemail Ricdic's Hoe requesting it and I will wire them back. Take note that this means you may not have time to get on board when things start back up (ie sells out before you get a chance to resend). 7) We won't be taking reservations. People can still send money if/when they like. It doesn't need to come in all that fast at the moment as it's sitting idle in my wallet and will remain so for at least another 3-7 days (before we start buying up produce). 8) All of the above is subject to change. This is more a quick update. I haven't had the time to speak to the guys in detail yet (bunnz, kwint, amarr) and yeh we have much more to discuss. Thanks for your time. We will keep you all informed as we finalise our decision and organise a proper business structure in the best interests of all parties.
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2008.02.06 17:03:00 - [37] I should also note, that depending on the level of security and design we decide on the bond (if it becomes one which is highly likely) will pay out between 8% to 13% per month in dividends. The chosen percentage will depend on how secure we can make this operation. Also, a buyback would be likely in place between 3-12 months after starting the operation. I would like to see something new hit the table that I have been considering. IE Month 4 > Buyback in place at 10m per share > 11% monthly dividend Month 5 > Buyback in place at 10m per share > 9% monthly dividend Month 6 > Buyback in place at 10m per share > 8% monthly dividend Basically so the monthly dividend gets smaller and smaller the longer people hold onto their bonds. It gives investors an option to choose when to sell out (ie when their returns aren't worth holding onto). Again, this needs consideration so it isn't set in stone. Feel free to discuss however
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2008.02.06 17:28:00 - [38] Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe 1) We may offer this as a bond rather than an IPO, with fixed returns (proportionate to the risk involved). 6) Some of you have already sent funds. 12.4b has been recieved. Now if people want their funds back in the meantime whilst the creases are being ironed out please evemail Ricdic's Hoe requesting it and I will wire them back. Take note that this means you may not have time to get on board when things start back up (ie sells out before you get a chance to resend). 7) We won't be taking reservations. People can still send money if/when they like. It doesn't need to come in all that fast at the moment as it's sitting idle in my wallet and will remain so for at least another 3-7 days (before we start buying up produce). My big concern here is what happens if I leave you my money now and I then decide I don't like what you're offering when your new plan appears? Can I then withdraw all my money or is it locked into this if I don't take it back now? Thanks. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.06 17:38:00 - [39] Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe 1) We may offer this as a bond rather than an IPO, with fixed returns (proportionate to the risk involved). What does "proportionate to the risk involved" mean in the context of a bond? If you offer it as a bond then you're guaranteeing to make the agreed payments no matter what happens - the only risk to investors is that you scam (or that you're offering a bond which you can't back up if things go wrong - which is just a more sophisticated way of scamming). If you intend to cap the payouts if it gos well - by making it a bond - then, in return, you accept ALL the risk if it gos horribly wrong. That's the key difference between a bond and an IPO. Offering an IPO then changing it to a bond mid-stream is a bit of a dodgy practice in the first place. At least make it clear if you're actually doing that - or if what you're trying to offer is an IPO where the investors bear the risk if it gos wrong but only get a small slice of the profits if it gos well.
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2008.02.06 17:44:00 - [40] Originally by: Ambo My big concern here is what happens if I leave you my money now and I then decide I don't like what you're offering when your new plan appears? Can I then withdraw all my money or is it locked into this if I don't take it back now? Thanks. Absolutely. Once we have things ironed out and even now people have the option to pull their funds out. I will put up the proper correct documentation and based on that you can contact me to pull out if you like. I will probably issue shares, the post a notice to shareholders that there is a new thread discussing the changes so people have an 'out' before we spend the cash. We don't want people to feel stuck in something that they didn't first agree too.
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2008.02.06 17:53:00 - [41] Originally by: FastLearner Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe 1) We may offer this as a bond rather than an IPO, with fixed returns (proportionate to the risk involved). What does "proportionate to the risk involved" mean in the context of a bond? If you offer it as a bond then you're guaranteeing to make the agreed payments no matter what happens - the only risk to investors is that you scam (or that you're offering a bond which you can't back up if things go wrong - which is just a more sophisticated way of scamming). Good post FL. As above we would need to determine the method we take. I didn't really consider it in that way. More that the risk is still there to the invester that it can go pear shaped but depending on what kind of risk level we negotiate we would provide better/worse returns. IE lets say we find a location with a good alliance holding the area down. That's not really that secure so we pay a higher % on the bond (ie 13% per month). If we can find an alliance that can guarantee our safety, or provide guaranteed protection under different circumstances, then we can offer something like an 8/9% interest rate as we believe the investment is far safer for the investor. I know what you are saying though, that it's not a traditional bond (aka personal loan) but it was more something I was spitting out into the open not something guaranteed to happen. Quote: Offering an IPO then changing it to a bond mid-stream is a bit of a dodgy practice in the first place. At least make it clear if you're actually doing that It has been done. I have advised things may be changing (as I did in my first post) and as a result of those changes existing investors can get out now, or when the new plan shows up.
TomHorn	Posted - 2008.02.06 19:32:00 - [42] Id like to thank ricdic to opening this plan and giving some small investors a chance to invest in Bunnz's plan. I was really hoping this was going to be an ipo , and my money would be used to get a cut of the profits from Bunnz plan. Ill wait to see the new thread.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.06 20:22:00 - [43] Originally by: TomHorn Id like to thank ricdic to opening this plan and giving some small investors a chance to invest in Bunnz's plan. I was really hoping this was going to be an ipo , and my money would be used to get a cut of the profits from Bunnz plan. Ill wait to see the new thread. Seeing that, I can't help but think people have the wrong idea about Bunnz's offer. He offered services to reactor operators. It wasn't something to invest in, it was a business arrangement to enter. Under his offer he would provide logistic, purchasing support and 0.0 access for your reacting business, he was never offering anything to get a cut of the profits from. That said, I am a reactor operator and I see serious potential between Bunnz's logistic services and the tremendous fuel savings that come with sovereignty. Hence I plan to invest in it. However, to get sovereignty I can't just move my personal reactor chains out there, I have to put up 50 towers worth of reactors. Hence I contacted Ricdic about securing capital to finance a full 50 towers and after extensive discussion and so many spreadsheets they now have their own subdirectory on my computer, we decided to make a public offering to raise some of the needed capital. The exact details of the offer are still being ironed out but it will be at a fixed rate. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Raskor	Posted - 2008.02.06 20:38:00 - [44] Originally by: Kwint Sommer The exact details of the offer are still being ironed out but it will be at a fixed rate. To me, the difference between secure and unsecure bond is that one requires physical collateral, and the other we take their value of their own reputation as the collateral. In both cases, I expect to be paid regardless of the outcome of the operation. Will the payments be made, and original investment returned, even if the operation fails due to a shift in profitability or the collapse of the alliance securing the space? Now, there can be an argument made for an unsecured bond where there is risk of loss of principal, but the rate needs to be much higher than the 12% I think I saw quoted earlier in the thread. In a nut shell, if you want us to bear the risk --- share the profits.
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.02.06 21:45:00 - [45] From another thread: Originally by: Kwint Sommer Using lowest Jita sell values updated 5-minutes ago; a normal Ferrogel reaction chain produces 576k units per month. Cost of raw minerals going into 576k units of Ferrogel: 12,116,520,000 ISK Value of 576k units of Ferrogel: 13,989,312,000 ISK Difference: 1,872,792,000 ISK Fuel for the 4 POS's needed: 1,132,698,240 ISK Monthly Profit: 740,093,760 ISK Profit per unit of Ferrogel: 1285 ISK % of Ferrogel Cost representing profit: 5.3% To sum up, anyone that thinks Ferrogel's price is inflated is an idiot. To those looking at that number and wondering how that even justifies running the POS's, let alone makes me a solid profit: I assure you there are ways to make at least 30% a month off of those rather skimpy looking numbers. Even if you took 50% of the profits for your 'management fee' (which would be quite egregious IMO) that would still be "at least" a 15% return. Of course, that's ignoring risk or cost of defesne, least of which would involve getting war dec'd or blown up for near-full losses unless it's in an outpost system you've got docking rights to, which I'm guessing isn't the case. Please post constructively. ~Saint
TomHorn	Posted - 2008.02.06 22:03:00 - [46] Thanks for your reply Kwint maybe i misunderstood Bunnz's plan. I thought Bunnz was offering the chance to anyone to become a Reactor operator as long as you had a minimum of 5billion isk availbale for investment, and to get in on the profits from advanced material construction. I beleived he was providing everything for you, and all you had to do was to make the advanced materials, didnt think you had to be a Reactor operator to get involved. I didnt have the 5bill to get involved so i was out,but then ricdic came up with an idea for smaller investors to club together the money and become reactor operators. I presumed a manager was going to be put in charge the investors money would of been used to buy the materials to make the advanced materials.Which would of then been sold and all investors would of taken cut of profits. So what i think what Bunnz was offering was the chance to anyone to become a reactor operator with him supplying all the logistics to do this as long as you had the minimum 5bill isk available, and get in on the profits from advanced materials. Ricdic came up with an idea for all the smaller investors to invest in one of these special plans that dont come around that often. But i think things have changed it aint that no more, but we need to wait for the new thread. I think the chance of the small investor to be involed in something specail with some good returns on your isk are gone. We aint invested in Bunnz plan no more we are invested in a bond, i think. The 2 or 3 people who run the bond will be using the isk in Bunnz plan to make advanced materials and take the profits from these materials and now pay the smaller investors only bond rates
FastLearner Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.06 22:10:00 - [47] Originally by: Raskor Originally by: Kwint Sommer The exact details of the offer are still being ironed out but it will be at a fixed rate. To me, the difference between secure and unsecure bond is that one requires physical collateral, and the other we take their value of their own reputation as the collateral. In both cases, I expect to be paid regardless of the outcome of the operation. Will the payments be made, and original investment returned, even if the operation fails due to a shift in profitability or the collapse of the alliance securing the space? Now, there can be an argument made for an unsecured bond where there is risk of loss of principal, but the rate needs to be much higher than the 12% I think I saw quoted earlier in the thread. In a nut shell, if you want us to bear the risk --- share the profits. That's the point I was making earlier. One of the most irritating (to me) trends here is the proliferation of pseudo-bonds. Where someone wants capital but isn't willing to share the profits or commit to proper reporting - so offers a fixed rate return. Of itself that's no problem - but a LOT of the offerings also pass the risk on to investors because the individual running it lacks the financial backing to payout if their plan gos wrong. I had this argument over Matalino's data-core IPO - which originally was being promoted as a bond despite there being no way for him to cover the promised payouts if data-core prices crashed (which has happened - and wasn't exactly a shock given the number of people training up research alts). His was changed to an IPO in the end - so investors there have no grounds for complaint if/when core prices drop even lower. If there's a reasonable in-game scenario in which someone will be unable to meet the promised payments (including return of principal) then there's no way they should be offering a bond. The best they can offer is an unsecured loan where, if things go wrong, there's an accepted risk by investors that they will lose some (or all) of their investment. And the fixed rate of interest paid for that should be well over the rate at which a secured loan could be obtained from a bank - which is approximately the 7%-12% range. If this were run on that basis then I'd say a fair rate would be around 15% per month - with investors accepting potential loss of investment if something disastrous happens (back-stab by alliance, war vs alliance, collapse of reaction market). I'd far rather see it run as an IPO though - as the real risks/gambles involved (and the lack of any existing operation backing it with capital reserves) really make it unsuitable for anything else.
Trading Bunnz Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.06 23:04:00 - [48] Edited by: Trading Bunnz on 06/02/2008 23:05:12 Originally by: TomHorn Id like to thank ricdic to opening this plan and giving some small investors a chance to invest in Bunnz's plan. This offering isn't really a chance to invest in my plan. The people making this offering are in negotiations with me to make use of the logistics and access I have obtained and using that basis to make an offering to the public. Originally by: Kwint Seeing that, I can't help but think people have the wrong idea about Bunnz's offer. He offered services to reactor operators. It wasn't something to invest in, it was a business arrangement to enter. Under his offer he would provide logistic, purchasing support and 0.0 access for your reacting business, he was never offering anything to get a cut of the profits from. See, and here's why I am happy to be dealing with Kwint. He read my offer and understood it. Originally by: TomHorn I thought Bunnz was offering the chance to anyone to become a Reactor operator as long as you had a minimum of 5billion isk availbale for investment, and to get in on the profits from advanced material construction. I beleived he was providing everything for you, and all you had to do was to make the advanced materials, didnt think you had to be a Reactor operator to get involved. I was providing all "long haul" logistics, or getting whatever you needed from where it could be bought to where the POSes would go up. There were options on the table to "do more" but I really wasn't pushing those, as I don't want to do the rest. Regardless of what is said, whether this "ipo/bond" makes use of my logistics or not, it wont be my operation. Edit : quote fu
Takimi Star	Posted - 2008.02.06 23:17:00 - [49] Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe Edited by: Ricdic''s Hoe on 06/02/2008 17:06:32 Month 4 > Buyback in place at 10m per share > 11% monthly dividend Month 5 > Buyback in place at 10m per share > 9% monthly dividend Month 6 > Buyback in place at 10m per share > 8% monthly dividend Maybe I misunderstand what you mean when you say Bond, but if I go to the bank right now and buy a bond for the government or a business, there is a fixed return until maturity, then the interest goes up if you keep the bond longer.
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2008.02.07 02:14:00 - [50] If the above scale were to be taken on it would encourage people to sell their bonds back to us. If we keep on paying the same rate of return people won't sell them back and the operation wouldn't privatise. Anyway it was just an idea. Something I haven't seen anyone do yet but figured it made sense.
Takimi Star	Posted - 2008.02.07 03:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe If the above scale were to be taken on it would encourage people to sell their bonds back to us. If we keep on paying the same rate of return people won't sell them back and the operation wouldn't privatise. Anyway it was just an idea. Something I haven't seen anyone do yet but figured it made sense. Ok. that makes sense why you would do it then... does it eventually go negative? That would be hilarious... "sorry sir, you waited 24 months.. your buyback on this 2bil bond is only 0.01 ISK.. I want to invest in this... but I am still waiting to see the final plan and possibly raise my personal assets higher than 1 share
jna Caldari Black Ash Enterprises	Posted - 2008.02.07 05:34:00 - [52] Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe So assuming the above 2b profit, the investors would recieve a return of 1.4b off that 7b investment, or 20% return. Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe I should also note, that depending on the level of security and design we decide on the bond (if it becomes one which is highly likely) will pay out between 8% to 13% per month in dividends. Meh. Let me say straight out that, Ricdic, you have an excellent reputation in the community, as well as an excellent reputation with me personally as I have experienced via EBANK. Trustworthiness is not an issue here for me. Let me also say that I don't want my money back (yet, anyway) due to your statement that if I asked for it back now I might miss out on this opportunity's future incarnation if I don't camp the forum 24/7. However, I will be waiting to see what comes out regarding this in a future post of yours and decide accordingly. I completely understand that things change from day-to-day; but can I just encourage you to not post offerings up on the forum for investors asking us to part with our money immediately to "get in before it all goes", until you have a reasonably solid, researched, discussed and agreed offering to put up? It might save on a whole bunch of slightly surprised and slightly-dissatisfied-but-will-wait-and-see people like me making slightly whiney posts like this one. ------------------------------------------------- When Carebears Attack! <-- Hulk PvP video
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2008.02.07 06:03:00 - [53] hehe agreed. Truth be told I thought it was a simple operation Bunnz was offering that you could just jump into. When I spoke to Kwint I found even though Bunnz is chewing up a lot of the logistics there is a ton more work that needs to be put into the thought process. I apologise that it went that way but you all definetly have an 'out' if you want it. I hope to have our documentation finalised in the next 2-3 days so the money won't stay idle for too long.
Blight1 Caldari Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2008.02.07 09:35:00 - [54] Edited by: Blight1 on 07/02/2008 09:34:59 I killed a freighter today full of moon minerals and pos' and couldn't help but laugh as I thought about this project ><
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Bat Country	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:53:00 - [55] 25 shares please, ISK has been sent.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.02.07 18:23:00 - [56] Originally by: Blight1 Edited by: Blight1 on 07/02/2008 09:34:59 I killed a freighter today full of moon minerals and pos' and couldn't help but laugh as I thought about this project >< For those thinking OMG, this could happen to my ISK if I invest! I'm here to say, it won't. Why? I would like to list what I do to ensure the safety of my shipments and how the largest loss I ever had was under 20M and involved getting sloppy with a Crow but I don't need to because all of that is being handled by Bunnz. I would say a few things about his logistics abilities but it really doesn't matter, if he looses a shipment it's his loss not ours. In the worst case scenario it would simply disrupt production, hurting our bottom-line but not touching the invested capital. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.02.07 19:27:00 - [57] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: Blight1 Edited by: Blight1 on 07/02/2008 09:34:59 I killed a freighter today full of moon minerals and pos' and couldn't help but laugh as I thought about this project >< For those thinking OMG, this could happen to my ISK if I invest! I'm here to say, it won't. Why? I would like to list what I do to ensure the safety of my shipments and how the largest loss I ever had was under 20M and involved getting sloppy with a Crow but I don't need to because all of that is being handled by Bunnz. I would say a few things about his logistics abilities but it really doesn't matter, if he looses a shipment it's his loss not ours. In the worst case scenario it would simply disrupt production, hurting our bottom-line but not touching the invested capital. Just to add to this, IF bunnz entire logistical operation was somehow deestroyed by some strange act of God(CCP), im sure there are backup plans in place to handle the need to move fuel/materials/reactions around if need be. I would assume any operation of this magnitude would have a plan in place if such an event were to occur. With that being said, I seriously doubt bunnz is going to fall victim to such an event. Although I do not personally know bunnz, I have done my research and spoken to several individuals and I can honestly say I have zero doubt at his ability to run a smooth operation. My name is Amarr Citizen 155 and I approve this message. ---------------------------------------------- Why do it the hard way when you can do it the AMARR way.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2008.02.07 20:07:00 - [58] Might be interesting in tossing some ISK in this once I see the final documentation.
Trading Bunnz Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.08 06:40:00 - [59] Originally by: Kwint ...if he looses a shipment it's his loss not ours... I fully endorse this statement. Materials are paid for when I get them out of the Corporate Hangar Array and billed when I put them into the Corporate Hangar Array. Any risk of loss before or after that is incurred by me, not Kwint and his partners. Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 ...I seriously doubt bunnz is going to fall victim to such an event... I concur, or I'd be charging a far higher premium. Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 ...Although I do not personally know bunnz, I have done my research and spoken to several individuals and I can honestly say I have zero doubt at his ability to run a smooth operation... Thanks for the vote of confidence, I'm kinda curious what research and who you spoke to. Not that I disagree, I know I can do it, but thats a very bold statement to make about someone you don't know, which leads me to believe we have mutual friends somewhere who have been whispering in your ear. I dont want to speak out of turn, this isn't my launch or product, even tho it does make use of my logistics chain, but I would seriously question the timelines projected by Ricdic above. I'll catch him and/or kwint/amarr to discuss that as soon as I can and hopefully they can clarify things here for investors.
Kaylanar Ortan	Posted - 2008.02.08 10:43:00 - [60] Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe Also, a buyback would be likely in place between 3-12 months after starting the operation. I would like to see something new hit the table that I have been considering. IE Month 4 > Buyback in place at 10m per share > 11% monthly dividend Month 5 > Buyback in place at 10m per share > 9% monthly dividend Month 6 > Buyback in place at 10m per share > 8% monthly dividend Basically so the monthly dividend gets smaller and smaller the longer people hold onto their bonds. It gives investors an option to choose when to sell out (ie when their returns aren't worth holding onto). Again, this needs consideration so it isn't set in stone. Feel free to discuss however So, it seems to me that this plan is just this idea, just with different packaging, ie. investors provide a low interest, unsecured, short term loan

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