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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.05 18:20:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Trade Tricks
anyways - you heard of timezones and other countries? recently realised that eve went up by some thousand players? your 'rare' pirate implant (lol) ... maybe it has just kinda high demand, even if its not much traded? imagine more and more pilots in vagas, commands, capitals ... well - as said before... lol 
Translation please.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.06 20:16:00 -
[2]
If any outside program interacts with the EVE client itself in any way it is against the EULA, period.
You can write a program that reads output from eve (through the API or market exports, etc) and then displays that data in a window in front of the EVE client. That is legal.
If the program does anything to the EVE client, such as moving the pointer, clicking, typing, etc it is illegal.
There is no getting around this. It doesn't matter if the program provides an advantage or not. If any program does something that a user would ordinarily have to do it is a "bot" or a "macro" and is illegal.
Splicing is not necessary. It is a simple and straightforward rule.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.06 20:36:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Letias
Originally by: Ambo
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Imo, a program running 23/7 that will be able to check things faster than any human and with a solid ruleset is always going to generate more cash than ordinary gameplay.
Only if it is programmed to do things faster than a human could. If the bot is programmed to do things at the same rate as a human or even slower then it is not helping to acquire items faster or make more money than a human could. The bot is just doing it in place of a human.
And it is still illegal.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.07 04:02:00 -
[4]
Gamepads and programming third/fourth mouse buttons, etc is actually against the EULA of almost every MMORPG I've played. It is fairly hard to catch somebody doing it... but not impossible.
In DAOC people would set their game pads to 'click' every 10 minutes to prevent themselves from being logged off. GM's posted warnings, broadcast them in game, sent email warnings... and then actually suspended people for a week for doing it. Some people got perma-bans for it because they continued to do it after two suspensions.
EVE's EULA also prohibits such activity... but I don't think they've ever banned anyone for it. But if you came up with a very complex key combination and they could prove it to some degree then you could indeed be banned. They reserve the right to ban you even if you think you've found a loophole.
In the cases mentioned here it is clear that any program that automatically interfaces with the client and issues instructions of any sort is illegal. It's extremely simple to know if your idea is illegal as I've said before. If your program 'clicks', 'types', or sends any signal to the client it is illegal. Period. It doesn't matter if it provides any advantage or not. It could simply be done to auto-export the market every hour. This is still illegal. You may not get caught/banned but it doesn't mean it isn't illegal and if you admitted to doing it they could ban you if they chose to.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.07 21:03:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ulstan
As long as you can trounce any bot by running 4 buy orders to his 1, things should be ok.
If anyone honestly believe that this is OK then they are insane.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.08 00:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Vested Interest
Aren't some of these sorts of tools legal in WoW? Not saying they should be legal here but I know there are a bunch of neat WoW tools that put down overlays and stuff like that.
WOW's API was designed to specifically allow people to do all sorts of nifty things. CCP could learn a LOT from WOW's interface. No game I've ever played has held a candle to WOW's interface. You could change it in almost every way. Everything was removable/re-sizable/etc.
You were basically encouraged to do whatever you wanted with the API and if Blizzard thought an addon went to far they would change the API so it wouldn't work anymore.
But you were not allowed to bot in WOW. Some addons auto-ran people from one place to another and they were disabled. Some auto-mined and they were removed as well. Only a very few, mind numbing tasks were allowed to be automated (making bandages, etc). But everyone knew where the line was.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.08 06:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
and if my non-WoW background of limited knowledge serves right, automated adjustments were not allowed by mods.
Indeed. You'd get a perma-ban if you were caught... and Blizzard had many ways to catch you. They banned tens of thousands of people if I recall correctly. They could do that because they had millions of subscribers and a few hackers would ruin the game for the real customers who played fairly.
If you were a farmer you'd get banned, if you sold accounts you'd be banned, etc. Sure they didn't get everyone but they sure did get a lot. Unfortunately CCP doesn't understand that removing bots would actually help their bottom line more than hurt it. Otherwise they'd go after farmers with more zeal.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.08 17:13:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Astorothe
What's even scarier is that I'm basically agreeing with 2 of Shad's post in one thread. 
This just proves that you can be right twice in the same thread sometimes! 
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.09 06:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Its kind of amusing when people discuss something they know next to nothing about.
Which in itself is an ironic statement since you cannot possibly know who any of these people are or what they actually know. For all you know one of the posters in this thread could be the foremost expert on artificial intelligence and mmorpg scripting. You should take your own advice is my point.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.10 19:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Its kind of amusing when people discuss something they know next to nothing about.
Which in itself is an ironic statement since you cannot possibly know who any of these people are or what they actually know. For all you know one of the posters in this thread could be the foremost expert on artificial intelligence and mmorpg scripting. You should take your own advice is my point.
Its very obvious to me from what people have posted in this thread that they are not either. I may not be an expert on AI, but I am on MMORPG scripting.
Before I came to eve I was one of the first and largest macroer/gold farmers in Ultima Online.
Now before you jump down my throat for being an "evil" macroer, I came to eve because I would actually have to play it instead of macro. The cat and mouse games with the stupid GM's in UO got old. For a while I even ended up moving to a freeshard created by our macroing community. There is nothing like watching an army of your bots fight some other guys.
The only thing that makes macroing unfair is when the company running said game makes it "illegal" to macro. Then the carebears feel they are being cheated because its "against the rules". Sad truth is macroers are smarter then the people that don't like them. I'm thinking you could actually justify macroing from a legal point of view using the American Disability Act and if you were banned because of it possibly sue for discrimination.
I don't believe any company has any right to tell me what programs I can run on my own computer, nor how said programs can interact with other programs running. The memory and its contents are owned by me and I will do whatever I damn well please with it.
Explains a lot. But the arguments you make are pretty weak. You agree to follow all terms and conditions set forth by CCP when you play their game. If you disagree to their conditions then you are violating the EULA and can be banned. No one is forcing you to play EVE, you choose to play. If you choose to not follow the conditions set forth to play then you can be banned. It's all personal choice. They can't force you not to run a macro on your computer, but they can ban you from playing their game if you do.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.10 19:33:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Shadarle on 10/02/2008 19:33:29
And further, it is insulting to all people who truly are disabled that you use their disabilities as a means to justify cheating. If someone truly has a disability they can contact CCP and discuss their situation and I'm sure they would be able to work something out, if not then they can decide what they wish to do. Trying to claim that you'd merely be acting on behalf of disabled people is a disgraceful and blatant lie.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.10 20:27:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Shadarle on 10/02/2008 20:28:07
Originally by: Dr Slurm
It is in any MMORPG companies best interest to let macroers slide when they can. It helps if they have some sort of tough looking public policy with teeth to make the carebears happy. Farmers make the game accessible to more people, not to mention provide a large (very large) source of revenue.
This is, absolutely, 100% not true. This is the kind of FUD produced by people who macro to try and justify their actions. Any money gained by the few macroers is more than offset by the number of people who quit because macroers destroy certain aspects of the game. If this was not true then it would not be against the rules to do it.
The same FUD was spewed by botters in DAOC, exploiters in WOW, aimbotters in CS, etc. It's complete and utter crap. Cheating that goes unpunished long enough loses far more customers than it attracts. The proof of this is that every mmorpg company bans people for doing the very things you claim are good for the game. If it was truly good then these companies would promote it. Every person here knows what you're saying is untrue, so honestly you should stop while you're behind.
The fact that you "used to" be a macroer is kind of like people coming here saying they "used to" be a scammer but they've learned from their evil ways. The only difference is you are fully admitting macro'ing is good. As far as I'm concerned cheating is worse than scamming because scamming is at least allowed within the EULA, cheating is not. And in case anyone here doesn't get the connection, macroing = cheating.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.10 22:24:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Shadarle on 10/02/2008 22:25:18
Originally by: Wikipedia
Cheating is -- as an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others.[1] Cheating implies the breaking of rules.
Originally by: merriam-webster
intransitive verb1 a: to practice fraud or trickery b: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
Originally by: dictionary.com
űverb (used without object)
4.to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.
5.to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.
Violating rules is cheating. Macroing is against the rules. Macroing is cheating.
A=B, B=C, A=C.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.11 00:33:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Shadarle on 11/02/2008 00:33:55
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Mining is not "cheating". Mining by hand produces the same result as macro mining. Macroing is not cheating.
A=B, B=C, A=C
The above highlighted section is not the whole truth. The end result in both cases is that ore ends up in your cargo hold. The process to get the ore there is VERY different. One requires someone to sit at the computer, the other does not. Using obviously false logic is not a very good way to prove a point.
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Everyone in the world should know by now that ganja should not be illegal, yet it is. This is the same thing. Its an unjust rule put in place to make a few ignorant people happy(richer).
This is an entirely different argument. You're arguing the rules are wrong. That's your right, but the means you have to argue this is to take it up with CCP. Until CCP changes the rules the rules are still there. If you carry around pot in real life and get caught you will be guilty of a crime (varying in degree based on how much, situation, etc). You will not get out of the crime by arguing the law is a bad law. But you are free to try that approach in front of a judge and see how far it gets you.
It would be like driving 120mph down the highway and getting pulled over. When the cop starts writing out a ticket you tell him that speed limit laws are bad laws and you have the right to drive as fast as you want. He then smiles and hands you the ticket. If you refuse to pay it you'll end up with an even larger fine and if you don't pay that you could wind up in jail.
If you don't like the rules against macroing then take it up with CCP directly, that's your course of action. If they don't change the rules you then either have to live with it, take your chances, or if you believe so firmly in your position you must quit out of principle. It seems you're in the "live with it" crowd in EVE and you were in the "take your chances" crowd in UO. Regardless, your entire line of reasoning here means nothing as you are cheating if you macro-mine, macro-trade, bot-mine or bot-trade.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.11 06:20:00 -
[15]
You've gone so far past sanity I can only assume you've been joking this whole time Slurm. Please tell me you've been trying sarcasm and failing in this thread.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.11 16:49:00 -
[16]
As I've said time and again, it all comes down to BOTS ARE ILLEGAL. If you use them you are cheating. If you macro you are cheating. The rules say you can't do it, if you do you are violating the rules. It's extremely simple. You can dislike the rules but the rules are still the rules. Until the rules change if you violate them you are cheating. Plain and simple.
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