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Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.06 02:19:00 - [1] I'm 99% sure this is pure pipe-dream here, but I'm eager to hear what people think of this. Setting up an outpost is a logistical nightmare for an alliance no doubt. But considering sovereignity requirements, jump freighters, compressed ore and faction towers, I wonder if it's possible, even though it's mad crazy (simply for the fact that big bad alliance comes along and shwacks your POS, shwacks the outpost shields and claims it). although conversely, if you're out in the middle of nowhere with an outpost and you're really not harming anyone (indeed, even helping by bringing in trade goods and the like), would an alliance bother with the logistics to invade? Anyway, between all this there's even a questions: A) Can an egg be built in a POS factory, if so which one? B) What factory does a freighter get built in? C) would the fuel for jump freighting so much stuff worth it? D) (only coz i have no experience in it) can Compressed ore be uncompressed without a rorqual? PErsonally, I think a solo outpost is very doable. Defendable? yeah, right. But I dunno, what do people think. Improve Market Competition!
Chomapuraku Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.06 03:49:00 - [2] hmmm, so you're asking if a one-man, 20-alt corp could build an outpost all by him/themselves? and if said corp/person managed to do so, would an alliance, bored by lack of PVP in their own space go to the trouble of taking the outpost? yes, it's doable, and no, we wouldn't steal your outpost. we'd probably end up fighting several other alliance for the privelege of doing so, and it'd be a toss-up who got to drown themselves in the sweet nectar of your tears
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.06 04:07:00 - [3] Not a one man, 20 alt corp. Just a one man, ok, maybe one or two alt corp (cyno alts). But slightly further, what if the facilities offered by the outpost were offered to whatever ruling body at the time for free? Delving a little more into the politics than I figured, just more interested in how concievable setting one up, whether it's just conquered or not, actually is. Improve Market Competition!
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.06 04:11:00 - [4] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Not a one man, 20 alt corp. Just a one man, ok, maybe one or two alt corp (cyno alts). But slightly further, what if the facilities offered by the outpost were offered to whatever ruling body at the time for free? Delving a little more into the politics than I figured, just more interested in how concievable setting one up, whether it's just conquered or not, actually is. ISS tried that, it didn't work. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.06 04:21:00 - [5] Originally by: Verite Rendition ISS tried that, it didn't work. I'm familiar with ISS's downfall, I'm unfamiliar with how they ran things though. If I recall anything correctly, they charged for outpost services. But I'm not trying to copy ISS, not even saying I'm going to do this (I've got about only 25% of the cash needed, and even then it's jammed up in operations). Just curious as to the concept that Jump Freighters will make Outposts a helluva lot easier to set up, and a lot more accessible to smaller corps, or even individuals. Improve Market Competition!
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries	Posted - 2008.02.06 04:49:00 - [6] Let's put it this way: In order to anchor the egg which becomes the Outpost, you'll need Sov 3 or 4 (can't remember offhand). This means you'll be spending several weeks keeping towers online to claim soverignty to build up to that level. Once you gain Sov 1, you'll be visible on the map for all to see. (which makes you a target and something to be investigated regardless of hostile intentions) If you dedicated all your time to keeping all these towers up and running, you might just have time enough to put together the egg and gather materials in the few seconds of free time you might steal here and there. During all this time of gaining soverignty, you'll be getting probed and investigated by all sorts, from outlaws to folks curious about the new neighbor. A 1-man operation might not worry the curious folks, but would be a magnet for those wanting to cause mayhem. If you survive all this long enough to actually get the Outpost built, you'll then have to pack your gear quick to escape the mobs who will then move in and take your work away from you. And why would your Outpost be taken from you? (besides "because we can") Money. Fees from labs/factories. Reprocessing fees. Base of operations. (not to mention selling the newly conquored station to an alliance who wants more assets in the area) Theoretically possible, yes. Too big a target to pass up? Hoo boy, yes. Do as you will. You can't say you haven't been warned. _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.06 05:10:00 - [7] Sov 3 or 4? I checked it up the other day, my understanding was it was only sov 1. Indeed, from the player guide Quote: In order to successfully deploy an Outpost, you must place it in a system meeting two criteria. First, there must be no other stations in the system; second, your Alliance must have a system sovereignty level of at least 1 in that system. So it'd be one POS to maintain, which is incredibly simple (imo) It's interesting to conceive that alliances really are that controlling of their nearby territories, so much so that nothing could really sway their mind when considering the conquering of an outpost, because there's equally reasons not to conquer a one-man neutral corp. 1. Drawing of resources from other potential conflicts. 2. Requirement to extend your resources further than necessary. 3. Neutral station may draw other neutrals (potential targets) to the area. 4. Convenient halfway house to other alliances (dubious, as this works both ways) and prolly a few more if my mind was fully focused on this atm. Improve Market Competition!
Daedalus DuGalle Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.02.06 07:27:00 - [8] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs So it'd be one POS to maintain, which is incredibly simple (imo) It's interesting to conceive that alliances really are that controlling of their nearby territories, so much so that nothing could really sway their mind when considering the conquering of an outpost, because there's equally reasons not to conquer a one-man neutral corp. 1. Drawing of resources from other potential conflicts. 2. Requirement to extend your resources further than necessary. 3. Neutral station may draw other neutrals (potential targets) to the area. 4. Convenient halfway house to other alliances (dubious, as this works both ways) and prolly a few more if my mind was fully focused on this atm. The player guide is out of date. 1 + 2) The costs of running an outpost is infitismal to the strategic advantage it provides to the locals. Thus a free outpost (because thats all it is if you're holding space with one POS and one ship) is like undocking, finding an officer fitted carrier and not flying off with it. 3) Targets in or near your home is NOT good. You want targets away from your home who you can raid on demand. 4) Like you said, dubious. In fact this is exactly what bought down ISS. ISS was strictly neutral and invaders would use ISS outposts as staging areas to invade locals. The locals got annoyed and took the outposts. To be honest, the fact you'd even CONSIDER trying to hold 0.0 space by yourself with 1 measly POS means you're seriously under-informed about how 0.0 conquest works. The problem with running independent outposts is not the logistics, but how to keep it safe. Heck, it would be profitable for me to get a coupel friends, spend 1bil to make an alliance, take your outpost and sell it to somebody else. - What good is money if it can't inspire terror in your fellow man?
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.06 09:38:00 - [9] People who have built outposts with hundreds of people and tried to defend them have lost them. You can build an outpost by yourself but you will need thousands to defend it.
Reviera	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:18:00 - [10] nearly impossible, but i can se where you are trying to go, atleast guess. would be the ultimate dream for a trader. jump freighters, move the buissnis to 0.0, expand your buissnis, build your own station and have your own market. controle everything! a nice thing. but so many that dont care and only want kills etc. so they will gladly kill and steal whatever they like.
000Hunter000 Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:25:00 - [11] Unless u have aNAP or some other deal with the local alliance boys they will just come and take it away from u and thank u for the free station u provided them... I dunno but i know better ways to waste my money then that Still, if u did manage to do it... personally i think i should be rewarded for it by naming it permanently and having ur name in the news CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:38:00 - [12] Chribba's Veldspar Shack - Soon in a region near You Secure 3rd party service ■ the Love project

Pizi Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Chribba Chribba's Veldspar Shack - Soon in a region near You hmm i feel you are one of the few who could pull this _______________________________________________ Mining Crystal II BPC Pricelist EVEpedia[Deutsch]
avon calling2	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:28:00 - [14] Edited by: avon calling2 on 06/02/2008 13:29:57 first you need to be/make a allaince to get Sov second you will need to claim sov of the area around your system to gain the chance to achonr the egg third getting stuff pass the local bully boys fouth keeping hold of said station. all bar the forth is do-able by a single corp so suggest you talk to allaince's in the region you are thinking of and asking them if they want you to join them and setup a Station, you can arrange that % of your station profit will be payed to allaince this will keep them willing to defend it if it's a good payer,they may ask you cover the cost of any ship lost in it's defence..
Lui Kai Phoenix Aeronautics	Posted - 2008.02.06 15:08:00 - [15] Yeah. Cribba's the one person most the big boys wouldn't steal an outpost off - if for no other reason than they'd loose their sig hosting :D To answer the original questions: I don't know that the egg can't be built in the pos factory, but since you're jumpfreightering everything, you're better off building it in a station anyway. Freighters get built in a large assemby array - but again, station makes more sense. Yes, the fuel for jumpfreighting it around would be far more intelligent than trying to build it at the pos. Compressed ore is uncompressed by refining it, no rorqual needed. Essentially: Could you manage to get one launched? Yes - if tenacious enough, you'd manage it. But it'd be gone within days. It's just too juicy a target to be passed up. If nothing else, your local pirates will claim it, thinking they're now a serious alliance with an outpost, and the next day your real neighbors would take it from them. ----------------
William Ortega Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.06 19:12:00 - [16] Originally by: Chribba Chribba's Veldspar Shack - Soon in a region near You I haven't mined veld in years, but if you pull something like this off, I will personally come to your region in a hulk and mine veld to fill up your shack. Can you make it so only veld can be reprocessed in the station? -Willy
Won Swunglow Caldari Dead By Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.06 19:16:00 - [17] All hail Chribba and his plans for world domination!!!
Counterparty	Posted - 2008.02.06 19:58:00 - [18] I've solo built outposts on Sisi. It's easy nowadays. Before freighters could unload at POS and eggs, it would have been a monumental amount of work for a solo player to haul everything. The sticky points are you need sov1, and hence an alliance, and you need to haul the egg (750k m3) from a station to your sov system. The station components to build egg are (from feeble memory) some 22000k m3 total and only sold by NPC in empire. They could be individually jumped to a 0.0 station to assemble egg in 0.0 -- but that would take nearly a hundred jumps. The egg fill items are another 3k or 4k km3, so tack on another dozen jumps.
aiiaiiaii	Posted - 2008.02.07 00:44:00 - [19] Someone would claim it just to grief you and they'd be right to do it.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.07 03:49:00 - [20] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 07/02/2008 03:51:50 Originally by: aiiaiiaii Someone would claim it just to grief you and they'd be right to do it. Well, my point isn't about whether it's right or not, of course it's totally right. If I went out and just plonked an Outpost out there (especially with the feedback from this thread) it'd just get taken, I'd 100% expect that. I was partially seeking answers as to if there was any arrangement alliances might seek which, cutting a very long story short, would allow someone to set up an Outpost stopping just short of actually joining their alliance while maintaining at least some capacity to take on at least neutrals as visitors to the station. To some of the other points raised, I'm reasonably familiar with 0.0 and how it operates, and familiar with it's politics (all of which lead me to believe there's a lot of people, specifically figureheads in alliances, who lead very nervous and paranoid lives within EVE, though completely justifiable). Personally it's the politics and that "expectation to serve at the CEO's whim despite RL commitments, else you are kicked from the corp/alliance", although that's my personal experiences and not a reflection of 0.0 as a whole. Regardless, the politics aren't what I was wondering about. Main point was the logistics of one person actually setting it up, in the face of hostiles gatecamping 0.0 access. It's some interesting stuff there, I might jump onto Sisi and see if you can assemble an egg in a POS (from what I can tell its 3 million m3 of equipment, 5 full normal freighter runs, 15-20 JF runs) If that's true about the sov requirements and the guides, then I think it's pretty **** that the guides aren't kept up to date with such a basic change. To any aspiring alliance wanting to set up an outpost and no prior knowledge of it, I'd be pretty PO'ed to have planned for sov 1 and then find out you actually need about 20 more POS's. The fact it's a sov 3 requirement is actually what I expected. Big suggestion to anyone at CCP reading this to get that fixed ASAP. On a flipside, I suppose alliances would mostly use Amarr Outposts for the factory slots right? Plenty of other towers/empire towers to research at? Improve Market Competition!
Kaven Kantrix Two Brothers Mining Corp. Friend or Enemy	Posted - 2008.02.07 06:33:00 - [21] Most of your questions have been answered, so I will stick to the one that hasnt: How to keep it. You state you would like to set up the outpost in someone elses space and allow neutrals to dock at it. That is the problem right there. Any deal you could make with any alliance would require you to only allow THEM to dock. I could definately see an arrangement being made between you and an alliance where you offer to put up an outpost and maintain it, under their protection. (They may require more than one pos to protect it though, since their enemies could easily sieze it.) And, just to avoid the logistics, they would allow you to keep it and protect it. Basically, they would be outsourcing the logistics of running "their" outpost. NOTE: Not all alliances would do this, for fear you would block their access at some point, trapping their assets, or do other nasty things. They'd want to have control and safety over that. But probably some alliance, somewhere, would go for the deal. Probably a pvp alliance who hates logistics, and who would be confident that they could take it from you if they needed to, and probably already have one or more outposts so not all their assets would be trapped. But its definately a dice roll with bad odds. The only way to run a neutral friendly outpost is to have the pvp force to defend it yourself, such as ISS or Big Blue had, waaaay back when. But all of those entities have sadly been destroyed over time.
Lui Kai Phoenix Aeronautics	Posted - 2008.02.07 06:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs On a flipside, I suppose alliances would mostly use Amarr Outposts for the factory slots right? Plenty of other towers/empire towers to research at? Most alliances like a minmatar for their first outpost - refining crap loot/ore is handy. For their second, typically an Amarr. Usually a Caldari for a third, though sometimes another minmatar/amarr depending on their needs. Most only build Gallente when they have nothing else they need done from an outpost but have the funds that they're willing to drop for a new place to dock. If you actually want to be serious about this, while still allowing neutrals to dock, you're going to have to be a seriously good salesman to the alliances you speak to. Especially without allowing them some type of control over the outpost (IE: A way to keep you from building it, placing it, and handing it over for their enemy to use as a staging grounds at a nice price). Not to mention the logistical problems of the fact that most landholding alliances are NBSI - so for there to be neutrals to dock at your hypothetical outpost, you'd need a NRDS alliance. So: Already landholding NRDS Willing to let an outsider build on their land Strong enough that they can defend their space (Thus not making your investment pointless in a week when Alliance X decides to invade) Friendly and trustworthy enough to not tell you to do this, then rip it out from beneath you. Minimal paranoia in their leadership Reason to desire another outpost in their regions (These aren't always good things - especially placed in the wrong spot) Honestly, the only alliance I can think of whom comes even vaguely close to all the points you'd need for this to work would be CVA - and they defiantly don't meet that final qualification. Also, I'm fairly certain even they aren't friendly enough to let an unknown go building one, even it complied to their rules. Not that I discourage your entrepreneurial spirit - I just don't think that this particular idea is feasible in the current political climate of Eve. But, if you're heart set on trying - start contacting alliance diplomats. And be very prepared to hear a lot of raging paranoia, alternating with a lot of stifled giggling while polishing up their guns. ----------------
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.07 09:45:00 - [23] Thanks for all the feedback, dunno if it seems like it but it's been incredibly useful. My focus wasn't really on the politics because it's not something I'm even close to thinking about at the moment isk-wise, and that'd probably change heaps by the time I'm even close. However, that doesn't mean I can't work towards it in some capacity (and I don't mean moving components into 0.0 space). Unexpectedly gained more insight into the operations of alliances too. Whatever I do, won't be for a long time that's for sure. Plenty can happen in the meantime. Big thanks again for all the feedback though. Improve Market Competition!
Lui Kai Phoenix Aeronautics	Posted - 2008.02.07 10:22:00 - [24] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Unexpectedly gained more insight into the operations of alliances too. Imagine a clinically paranoid, megalomaniacal, kleptomaniacal, sociopath. Who has an exceptionally poor grasp on the English language. You've just imagined 90% of the alliance diplomats/leaders out there. ----------------
Gillian Haas	Posted - 2008.02.07 10:57:00 - [25] I reckon any alliance would welcome someone who could drop an outpost egg, especially if this would get them 3 outposts in a constellation and hence constellaion sov. You'd most likely need to prove to said alliance that you could produce the egg before they'd let you join up tho, so it might be an idea to build the egg first then ask various alliances if they'd like to have you drop it in their territory. You need to decide on which type of outpost to build as well. most outpost pairs will be a refinery and a factory so they might welcome either another factory (for more manufacturing slots) or a research outpost.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.07 11:27:00 - [26] Originally by: Lui Kai Imagine a clinically paranoid, megalomaniacal, kleptomaniacal, sociopath. Who has an exceptionally poor grasp on the English language. You've just imagined 90% of the alliance diplomats/leaders out there. Oh crap, that's uncanny.
Jon Asus	Posted - 2008.02.07 14:42:00 - [27] I have no advice on the topic, just want to say that I too would love to run a one man outpost.
CrazzyElk Northern Shadowrunners Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.07 16:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Lui Kai Originally by: Kylar Renpurs On a flipside, I suppose alliances would mostly use Amarr Outposts for the factory slots right? Plenty of other towers/empire towers to research at? Most alliances like a minmatar for their first outpost - refining crap loot/ore is handy. For their second, typically an Amarr. Usually a Caldari for a third, though sometimes another minmatar/amarr depending on their needs. Most only build Gallente when they have nothing else they need done from an outpost but have the funds that they're willing to drop for a new place to dock. Read this thing about a research outpost being a third choice for most alliances but I've never heard that before and never even seen sutch an outpost. I have however seen several gallente outposts witch I think are a bit more common. Aside from the big boys a lot of alliances out there have dossens of corps and they all want corp offices (corp hangar). While research is done pretty easilly in posses even in highsec PS. Checked with outpost alert 16 gallente vs 7 caldari research outposts DS.
Counterparty	Posted - 2008.02.07 16:30:00 - [29] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs I might jump onto Sisi and see if you can assemble an egg in a POS (from what I can tell its 3 million m3 of equipment, 5 full normal freighter runs, 15-20 JF runs) 3m m3 is to fill the build platform(egg). To build the platform takes over 30m m3 of station components. Check out the egg blueprint. To anchor egg you need some significant skills as well. Originally by: Kylar Renpurs If that's true about the sov requirements and the guides, then I think it's pretty **** that the guides aren't kept up to date with such a basic change. To any aspiring alliance wanting to set up an outpost and no prior knowledge of it, I'd be pretty PO'ed to have planned for sov 1 you only need sov1 to build outposts.
Pete Higgs Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.07 18:15:00 - [30] I thought this was kind of a cool hypothetical. I love reading posts like these that dream big. Unfortunately a poorly defended outpost near an alliance's space is an enemy staging area waiting to happen. No one would accept a liability like that within close striking distance. You would have to prove you could assist your allied alliance in defending it, which could mean things like: 6 well designed large deathstar POS's Sov 3 Cyno jammer Jump Bridge Corp members who have trained Starbase Defense Management to act as POS gunners, preferably 3-4 in every time zone. That said, small(ish) entities such as Libertas Fidelitas have managed it. LFA put up 2 outposts and has less than 250 members.

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