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Roguehalo
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Posted - 2008.02.07 16:10:00 -
[1]
Isnt it about time we had more trade skills?
I will award a prize of 10million isk(stop laughing all you trillionaires) to the best idea (imho) posted during the next 14 days 
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Robacz
Essence Trade
Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.02.07 16:26:00 -
[2]
Hm there is not much skills you can add to current market system without changing it... maybe Advanced Accounting (0.5 to 0.25 tax).
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Death4free
Caldari
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.02.07 16:29:00 -
[3]
How about a new skill called undercut
"this skill will immediately increase the amount of isk your are willing to pay in a buy order if another person buy order is higher. The amount added will be 0.1 isk above what the current highest buy order is."
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Cogwheel
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Posted - 2008.02.07 16:33:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Death4free
How about a new skill called undercut
"this skill will immediately increase the amount of isk your are willing to pay in a buy order if another person buy order is higher. The amount added will be 0.1 isk above what the current highest buy order is."
Undercut should be for sell orders and there should be a counterpart skill for buy orders ... umm... can't think of a name...
But yeah... maybe only level 5 would allow .01 isk undercutting... each other level would be some particular percentage markdown/up ;)
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Hadesfire
Caldari
Happy hOur Mining and industry
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.07 16:34:00 -
[5]
Advertisement:
For each level you have of this skill, one of your sell orders is 'stickied', causing it to always appear on the top of the list, regardless of sort order.
Would probably get annoying REAL fast, but kinda funny at first... especially if you use it on one of those 'off by a decimal place' orders :)
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Ours DeSoin
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Posted - 2008.02.07 16:35:00 -
[6]
The ability to view/modify orders from other regions. So some of the Jita warriors can stay home and update by their .01
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.07 18:23:00 -
[7]
Adv Accounting, Adv Broker Relations, then double the base values on broker fees/taxes. Adjust the skills so 5/5 brings you to where you can get now.
This has the advantage of making trading more of a profession, if you're skilled you will have a larger advantage over unskilled people. It also acts as a slightly larger ISK sink.
Market Intelligence - Allows you to view the market as if you were in another station of your choice. You would then see all orders in that system as green and would get # of jumps to other orders from that system. Level 1 allows you to simulate stations in your current system, level 2 is 5 jumps, 3 - 10, 4 - 20, 5 - Region (as per most market skills).
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Dzil
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.07 19:26:00 -
[8]
I have 3 - don't shoot me over the naming as I haven't had much time to work out catchy names:
Acquisition
Pre-req: Wholesale 1
Enables the setup of buy orders with multiple tiers depending on quanity purchased. (This would allow the buyer to offer an incentive to potential sellers to dispose of large quantities of items, rewarding them with a better price). Each rank would allow the order to contain an additional threshold level and price.
For example
Buy order : tritanium, regional, 2 isk, 3 months
With acquisition 3, I could add 3 thresholds to this at which I would purchase bulks of tritanium for more without using additional orders:
1000+ : 2.1 isk
100000+ : 2.2 isk
1000000+ : 2.4 isk
This allows me to encourage and reward bulk sales of goods, rather than widely distributed waste - it also gives me a way to purchase goods at a price higher than the market "top bidder" in high volume circumstances. Escrow would have to be placed for the highest potential price, and unused amounts refunded as appropriate, modified still again by margin trading. I don't think this is too outside the current capabilities of the system, as it manages to pull addition isk from your wallet when you have margin trading today.
Distribution
Pre-req : wholesale 1
The sell order version of acquisition. Again, allows setup of tiered sales in a single order (currently, sales requiring a certain volume of purchase are only allowed in contracts, to my knowledge), encouraging bulk sales.
Corporate marketing
Pre-req : Accounting? (maybe something from the corp tree too)
Allows use of a marketlike system in which your orders are only visible and available to fellow corp-mates. This could be done on a separate order system, my thoughts are each rank would allow you to setup an addition 20% of your market orders as "corp only" orders, these corp only orders would not count against your normal order limit. This would make it a lot easier for corps with an industrial division to distribute goods and receive materials at an internal, corporate price, without a complex and rapidly expiring contract system.
I could see an additional advanced skill based off this that would extend the orders to an alliance instead.
I lied, I have a 4th:
RENEWABLE CONTRACTING:
Allows a contract to immediate duplicate itself upon completion, up to a certain number of times (maybe 5 x rank)? This would allow distributors of more complex goods (such as faction modules) to bring a consistent product to the marketplace and rapidly redeploy contracts while the goods last, without cluttering the contract system or consuming all of their available public contracts.
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Roguehalo
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Posted - 2008.02.07 19:46:00 -
[9]
Acquisition sounds good. Surely would fry the brains of the 0.1 undercutters
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Ki Shodan
Gallente
deep blue
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Posted - 2008.02.07 20:02:00 -
[10]
A skill for more Market orders:
Mega-Tycoon
Ability to organize and manage market operations. Each level raises the limit of active orders by 64.
training time multiplier: 8
Primary Skill required: Tycoon V
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Evemail me, if my name is used as guarantor! |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.07 20:13:00 -
[11]
Acquisition would require a retooling of the market interface... so it's not really in line with the OP's inquiry. If you want to talk about redoing/upgrading the interface then I could come up with 10+ skills with an interface to allow for them... but that's a different can of worms.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Kyla dhaal
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Posted - 2008.02.07 20:23:00 -
[12]
Market Espionage
Req: Tycon 5, Broker Relations 5, Procurment 5
Through market connections the trader can access the secure comerce connecions, allowing the trader to determine the originator of a buy or sell order once per day.
Use of this skill costs 90% of the isk value of the order decreasing by 10% for each level to a 50% at level 5. . |
Dzil
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.07 20:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shadarle
Acquisition would require a retooling of the market interface... so it's not really in line with the OP's inquiry. If you want to talk about redoing/upgrading the interface then I could come up with 10+ skills with an interface to allow for them... but that's a different can of worms.
I'm not sure I see where in his inquiry he explicits that the addition of new skills cannot require a little tweaking in the interface to make them work.
I mean, based on that:
Salvaging required tweaking the fitting screen.
Exploration added new tabs to missioning and probing.
Contracting added - the whole contract pane.
Alliances required new tabs and entirely new game mechanics.
etc.
Most good enhancements to a game require some interface tweaks.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.07 20:34:00 -
[14]
A high level skill to let you see the owner of buy orders could be interesting.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.07 20:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dzil
Originally by: Shadarle
Acquisition would require a retooling of the market interface... so it's not really in line with the OP's inquiry. If you want to talk about redoing/upgrading the interface then I could come up with 10+ skills with an interface to allow for them... but that's a different can of worms.
I'm not sure I see where in his inquiry he explicits that the addition of new skills cannot require a little tweaking in the interface to make them work.
I mean, based on that:
Salvaging required tweaking the fitting screen.
Exploration added new tabs to missioning and probing.
Contracting added - the whole contract pane.
Alliances required new tabs and entirely new game mechanics.
etc.
Most good enhancements to a game require some interface tweaks.
I guess I lumped the 2nd post in with the OP.
But CCP is notorious for not doing much with the market. A skill that would be easily implemented is far more likely to be added than one that requires a reworking of the entire interface.
That said, some of the ideas here I do not like at all.
Auto-updating of prices is just a bad idea.
A skill to see who the owner of a buy order/sell order is not needed, you can just sell something to the order if you really care that much.
Market "stickies" is a horrible idea that would be terribly annoying for everyone. All it would do is add a second level of price wars where people compete in prices with the other stickies. Plus it makes everything far more confusing.
Being able to modify orders from other regions is a bad idea. The market is regional, always has been and always should be. If you want inter-region orders then use contracts. If you don't think contracts are good enough then suggest upgrades/fixes for them. Either switch over to a global market or leave things as they are now. A global market may actually be quite interesting... but it would kill haulers as it would be too easy to find price differentials and thus prices would stabilize too much.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Dzil
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.07 21:58:00 -
[16]
Quote:
But CCP is notorious for not doing much with the market. A skill that would be easily implemented is far more likely to be added than one that requires a reworking of the entire interface.
Ain't that the sad truth.
Still, a guy can dream.
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Prism Roze
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Posted - 2008.02.07 22:39:00 -
[17]
Corporation Daytrading
Reqs: Daytrading IV, Trading IV
Allow members of a corporation with the proper roles and wallet access the ability to modify or cancel orders placed by other members with the "Use Corporation Wallet" selected. Because these orders can sometimes go days or weeks unattended, while risking or using up shared resources, there must be some way for a corp to maintain these orders.
Each level of Corporation Daytrading expands the range that a corp member may modify orders from, with range bonuses similar to the standard Daytrading skill.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.07 22:47:00 -
[18]
Hmm, how about Regional Contacts.
Requirements: Trade V, Marketing V, Daytrading V, Procurement V, Visibility V
Allows traders to make contacts in various systems to extend the ranges of their ordering power beyond their current region. Each level of this skill would allow for an additional contact to be made, up to a limit of five. Contacts would cost 10m ISK per week, and add a 10% surcharge to orders placed through them.
Contacts must first be set in person; traders would travel to the system and station they want to hire a contact at. Provided they have the standings (5 or higher) the contact will then allow Traders to select that region to view it's market, and place remote orders as if at the station the contact is in.
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Roguehalo
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Posted - 2008.02.07 22:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Alz Shado
Hmm, how about Regional Contacts.
Requirements: Trade V, Marketing V, Daytrading V, Procurement V, Visibility V
Allows traders to make contacts in various systems to extend the ranges of their ordering power beyond their current region. Each level of this skill would allow for an additional contact to be made, up to a limit of five. Contacts would cost 10m ISK per week, and add a 10% surcharge to orders placed through them.
Contacts must first be set in person; traders would travel to the system and station they want to hire a contact at. Provided they have the standings (5 or higher) the contact will then allow Traders to select that region to view it's market, and place remote orders as if at the station the contact is in.
Inter-Regional market pvp sounds very interesting!
keep the ideas coming.......remember theres 10m for the winner
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.02.07 23:28:00 -
[20]
I was thinking of some kind of skill + implant for corp traders that allowed them to utilize the market in whatever region the other "linked" traders in their corp are in. Orders would count against your own total, or maybe a shared pool of corp orders, but the with the proxy's skill level (ie visibility, marketing).
You can do this already with trade alts, why not make it sort of a built-in option so corp traders can multi-region trade? It'd only work in a remote region if one of the traders was actually there. I would suggest a new "remote market" screen so you could have both the local and a remote market open at once.
I would also like a division for corp traders that includes a shared corporate order manifest, brokerage fees payed on a schedule instead of per trade, and better profit tracking. This could require some new skills like "Corporate Ordering" and "Corporate Daytrading."
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Viilaa
Caldari
OH Corp
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Posted - 2008.02.08 03:38:00 -
[21]
Some skill that allows your buy orders to overlap region boundaries. I operate a lot near Jita and wish my buy orders would overlap into The Citadel or Lonetrek instead of having to make 1 jump and making new buy orders. A range of 5 jumps should be a range of 5 jumps regardless of regional boundaries.
Viilaa
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Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.08 06:58:00 -
[22]
I agree in principal that there should be more trade skills, and some of the ones above look pretty damned good.
As a slightly side question, after maxing trade, what do you guys typically start training on your market chars?
Eve Corp Web Design | Eve Online Addicts |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.08 16:12:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ulstan on 08/02/2008 16:12:29
Quote:
As a slightly side question, after maxing trade, what do you guys typically start training on your market chars?
Skills for faster standing gain :)
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delfy4
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Posted - 2008.02.09 08:20:00 -
[24]
skills are cool, but for a start they should add folders to market window's Quickbar,or as an alternative allow loading/saving presets,just like overview's settings..
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Mirithol
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Posted - 2008.02.10 02:11:00 -
[25]
Totally agree with Delfy4 on the quickbar.
Since trade is charisma based what about:
Smuggle: Improves the chance of moving contraband through customs patrolled space and reduces the fine if caught - think a charming Han Solo. Could also have a smuggling hold mod.
Bribe: Chance to improve standing at a corporation the old fashioned way - through ISK. Perhaps a 0.2% increase per level with the associated bribe cost based on your current standing. For instance 1 million ISK at a level 1 standing, 5 million at level 2, 10 million at level 3, 25 million at level 4, 50 million at level 5, 100 million at level 6, etc. or perhaps just make it a one time bumb per corp bribing.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.10 05:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mirithol
Totally agree with Delfy4 on the quickbar.
Since trade is charisma based what about:
Smuggle: Improves the chance of moving contraband through customs patrolled space and reduces the fine if caught - think a charming Han Solo. Could also have a smuggling hold mod.
Bribe: Chance to improve standing at a corporation the old fashioned way - through ISK. Perhaps a 0.2% increase per level with the associated bribe cost based on your current standing. For instance 1 million ISK at a level 1 standing, 5 million at level 2, 10 million at level 3, 25 million at level 4, 50 million at level 5, 100 million at level 6, etc. or perhaps just make it a one time bumb per corp bribing.
Those numbers are extremely cheap. I'd insta bump all my characters to 8-9 at the rate you are listing. The savings in brokers fees would be payed off very quickly. I think I pay more in brokers fees each week then that as it is, even with a 9.99 corp standing and a 8+ faction standing.
The numbers would have to be astronomically higher... but I like the general idea, even if it only worked at the low end or if the bump was always 1% (derived the same way mission standings are, meaning the subtracting your current standing from 10.0 and then adding in 1% of the difference). This way you get less and less out of it and each time. The fees would have to be based on the difference as well, but that is for CCP to figure out.
There could then be two skills, one to increase the chance the bribe works (by default it would be 50/50 perhaps) and each level would increase it by 5% for example. The other skill would decrease the cost to bribe by 5% per level. You could even have a third skill to increase the impact of the bribe by 5% if you really wanted to... but two would probably be enough skills for this.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
TheCartel
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Posted - 2008.02.10 08:40:00 -
[27]
Blow up Jita - Blow up Jita
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Vanilla Prime
Advanced Technologies And Research Inc
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Posted - 2008.02.10 20:46:00 -
[28]
"Brokers friend" skill
Will work as the margin trading but on the broker fees.
You pay a certain % of the broker fees when you place an order.
Fees must be paid if the transaction is completed.
If you cancel the order, the broker only keep the % already paid.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.10 20:51:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Vanilla Prime
"Brokers friend" skill
Will work as the margin trading but on the broker fees.
You pay a certain % of the broker fees when you place an order.
Fees must be paid if the transaction is completed.
If you cancel the order, the broker only keep the % already paid.
Bad skill. This only encourages people to place and remove orders more often. It also removes some of the money sink that broker fees provide. On top of that it wouldn't help 90-99% of traders in any real way.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Vanilla Prime
Advanced Technologies And Research Inc
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Posted - 2008.02.10 21:40:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Shadarle
Bad skill. This only encourages people to place and remove orders more often. It also removes some of the money sink that broker fees provide. On top of that it wouldn't help 90-99% of traders in any real way.
I agree that's not the best skill ever that every trader would dream to have.
But I don't think you can add a skill which would change seriously the way the market works.
The numbers used actually (% broker fees, % tax) can't be changed without a serious impact.
This skill would give a slight bonus for people who want more 'fluid' orders.
And I think that being able to add/remove orders more frequently would be a good thing.
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SocialTRader
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Posted - 2008.02.10 22:06:00 -
[31]
how about a skill to make it possible to bid on contracts outside of your region thats always annoying as hell when I see a nice auction but its like 30 jumps away to get into the region
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Ava Santiago
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Posted - 2008.02.11 01:47:00 -
[32]
Back Office
Able to check the local markets in which corp offices are located(In different regions). 5 Jumps, 10 Jumps, 20 Jumps, 40 Jumps, Universe.
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.02.11 06:43:00 -
[33]
Advanced Broker Relations (or something)
Allows for the splitting and merging of existing market orders. An order can be split into 2 orders for whichever proportion of units at the same price. To merge orders requires you to have all of the target orders orders at the same price point.
Also allows quantity modifications for existing orders, to increase or decrease # of requested or offered units.
I'd suggest a broker fee of 250cr (vs the usual 100) for advanced order changes.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.02.11 07:23:00 -
[34]
Market Radar
to start remove average prices from market, remove the green and red profit/loss bars.
Make it an advanced skill to be able to see that data. Really, buyers and sellers should be determining average price off data and table section of the market, not having everything available on a silver platter. My shuttle doesn't have an inbuilt wcs so I see no reason people trading should be imune.
The R2R project would be far easier if people didn't have a free inbuilt trade analyser.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.11 08:57:00 -
[35]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Market Radar
to start remove average prices from market, remove the green and red profit/loss bars.
Make it an advanced skill to be able to see that data. Really, buyers and sellers should be determining average price off data and table section of the market, not having everything available on a silver platter. My shuttle doesn't have an inbuilt wcs so I see no reason people trading should be imune.
The R2R project would be far easier if people didn't have a free inbuilt trade analyser.
I actually think this is a very good idea. If you can't do the math in your head then you should be at a disadvantage.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.11 08:58:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Vested Interest
Advanced Broker Relations (or something)
Allows for the splitting and merging of existing market orders. An order can be split into 2 orders for whichever proportion of units at the same price. To merge orders requires you to have all of the target orders orders at the same price point.
Also allows quantity modifications for existing orders, to increase or decrease # of requested or offered units.
I'd suggest a broker fee of 250cr (vs the usual 100) for advanced order changes.
Change that last part to be "100% of standard broker fees" and I'd find it perfectly acceptable.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Roguehalo
Caldari
RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2008.02.11 09:12:00 -
[37]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Market Radar
to start remove average prices from market, remove the green and red profit/loss bars.
Make it an advanced skill to be able to see that data. Really, buyers and sellers should be determining average price off data and table section of the market, not having everything available on a silver platter. My shuttle doesn't have an inbuilt wcs so I see no reason people trading should be imune.
The R2R project would be far easier if people didn't have a free inbuilt trade analyser.
This is an interesting suggestion in that it would effectively nerf trading initially in order to dole out the information later via skill training.
That in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing since trading for the knowledgeable is currently very overpowered.
My own views on the situation is that just as Titan pilots have a long long road to travel then so should advanced traders have a similarly long road to travel.
So another question. How many people agree with nerfing aspects of trading and then reintroducing those same aspects by way of advanced trading skills?
VestedInterests idea of allowing greater modifications of orders is also interesting. Nothing worse than making a stationwide order by mistake and having to scrap it to make it regionwide instead
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.02.11 09:25:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Roguehalo
This is an interesting suggestion in that it would effectively nerf trading initially in order to dole out the information later via skill training.
Well, any competent trader does the calculations themselves. The idea behind that change would be it would only be trained by people working in the trade industry. If a mission runner or pvp runner wants the benefits that come with it (frankly I think there are none, short of it being there to hold someone's hand to make sure they don't buy overpriced/sell underpriced) then they should have to train some trade skills to allow for it.
That's basically my reasoning behind it. Someone with zero trade skills has the same utilities available as someone maxed out in trade. As above I cannot fly a Titan without specialising in spaceship command skills, so why should a person have access to market operations data with zero specialisation skills.
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Asteroid Bandit
NOPHEX PRISIM
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Posted - 2008.02.11 12:05:00 -
[39]
Ok these aren't new skills, these are skills as part of a market package that I would like to see (only because my own market use is limited enough that I wouldn't suffer from their catastrophic implementation).
Full Disclosure - Allows viewing of buyers and sellers w/o purchasing items. (Ok I do want this one)
*Market agents cost $ for use*
Friends in High Places - Allows the use of market agents to launch inquiry into accounting practices of targeted sell orders (Increases tax on targeted orders by x% for y days).
Anti Trust - Allows the use of market agents to prevent targeted player from engaging in more than x orders for item y for z days.
The Lawyers - Increases cost of market agent use against you proportional to lawyer retainers.
The Firm - Adv. Version of The Lawyers.
Cooked Books - Use of market agents to eliminate taxes for x days, doubles taxes for x days following.
Marketing Campaign - Use of market agents to advertise buy and sell orders in neighboring regions.
Oh I have a bunch more but this is really an exercise in fanciful comedy. I don't think anyone would actually want these, I just like the idea of a far more hostile and subversive marketplace. WEAPONS for MARKETEERS!
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.11 17:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Asteroid Bandit
Ok these aren't new skills, these are skills as part of a market package that I would like to see (only because my own market use is limited enough that I wouldn't suffer from their catastrophic implementation).
Full Disclosure - Allows viewing of buyers and sellers w/o purchasing items. (Ok I do want this one)
*Market agents cost $ for use*
Friends in High Places - Allows the use of market agents to launch inquiry into accounting practices of targeted sell orders (Increases tax on targeted orders by x% for y days).
Anti Trust - Allows the use of market agents to prevent targeted player from engaging in more than x orders for item y for z days.
The Lawyers - Increases cost of market agent use against you proportional to lawyer retainers.
The Firm - Adv. Version of The Lawyers.
Cooked Books - Use of market agents to eliminate taxes for x days, doubles taxes for x days following.
Marketing Campaign - Use of market agents to advertise buy and sell orders in neighboring regions.
Oh I have a bunch more but this is really an exercise in fanciful comedy. I don't think anyone would actually want these, I just like the idea of a far more hostile and subversive marketplace. WEAPONS for MARKETEERS!
In a game without alts this might work, with alts it's nothing but a griefer's tool.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.11 17:22:00 -
[41]
Banking - you get 0.001% interest on your isk in wallet every day after downtime (you have to claim it by clicking the claim button every day, otherwise no interest).
Can be trained to 0.005%/day with level 5.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.11 17:24:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Shadarle on 11/02/2008 17:25:52
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Banking - you get 0.001% interest on your isk in wallet every day after downtime (you have to claim it by clicking the claim button every day, otherwise no interest).
Can be trained to 0.005%/day with level 5.
Too small to make any difference. If it was larger then it would cause inflationary problems.
No sort of "bank" should be run by CCP for any reason.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Dzil
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.11 19:44:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Roguehalo
This is an interesting suggestion in that it would effectively nerf trading initially in order to dole out the information later via skill training.
That in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing since trading for the knowledgeable is currently very overpowered.
My own views on the situation is that just as Titan pilots have a long long road to travel then so should advanced traders have a similarly long road to travel.
So another question. How many people agree with nerfing aspects of trading and then reintroducing those same aspects by way of advanced trading skills?
VestedInterests idea of allowing greater modifications of orders is also interesting. Nothing worse than making a stationwide order by mistake and having to scrap it to make it regionwide instead
I think it would be a terrible mistake by CCP to nerf trading and then offer it back through skills - whether in the form of requiring skills to use tools we have today, or in adding more taxes that required more skills to neutralize. Nothing about that adds any more "fun" to trading, it just requires more time on the treadmill.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.11 21:46:00 -
[44]
What EVE really needs:
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Stock Exchange (Reqs Trade V, Contracting IV, Corp Contracting IV)
Player gets 10 active trades per level, for a maximum of 50.
Allow players to buy and sell corp shares via a Market-style tree, except it's not limited by Region. Corporations can list their stock at whatever price they want initially but a free market would allow the traders to decide their true value. Historical data is also skill restricted (see below) but would be expanded to include data such as dividend payouts.
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Investment Research (Req: Stock Market III)
Gives players greater historical data regarding the stock market. Each level extends the history 75 days, for a maximum of 375 days previous.
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delfy4
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Posted - 2008.02.12 05:17:00 -
[45]
how about making this a sticky thread so devs would see we actually care about some improvements/advancements. otherwise thread would be lost in archive and in couple weeks noone will remember about it..
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.12 06:17:00 -
[46]
Originally by: delfy4
how about making this a sticky thread so devs would see we actually care about some improvements/advancements. otherwise thread would be lost in archive and in couple weeks noone will remember about it..
Only this doesn't really belong in this forum, so mods won't sticky it. I personally think it belongs, but the mods seem to think anyone discussing any type of new idea should be in the ideas discussion. The problem is that there are too many ideas that are not well thought out in the ideas forum. The mods should promote people discussing lots of diff ideas in the relevant forum (market ideas in MD, etc) then when a good idea has been hashed out and a good amount of people agree with it you can move it to the ideas forum for discussion by a wider audience. It would make the ideas in the Idea's forum far more constructive and would make less threads for devs to sort through there.
That said, we all know nothing is going to change and threads like this will still get locked fairly often. We've had other similar threads here before. One actually got a Dev reply in it stating several things I was asking for are actually on the drawing board. I think a few of them are on SISI now actually. But those are mostly interface improvements, not new skills.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Daphne Eveningstar
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Posted - 2008.02.12 08:23:00 -
[47]
Hey don't forget Short Selling!
Short Selling
Allows the placing of sell orders backed by cash, or assets in the hanger at the time of execution. Each level of Short Selling allows you to place short orders using 15% per level less ISK locked in Short-Escrow as needed to fully cover your position (starting from 100% at L1).
A short sell order uses up a regular trade slot.
Short-Escrow is adjusted dynamically from your wallet to cover the market value of the short position. The remaining cash balance needed to cover your position is shown in "Short-Margin, Isk to cover."
Any assets present in the hangar at the time the order fills will be used to fill the order first. If you don't have enough goods available, the difference will be filled with units purchased from the market using short escrow funds. Having assets in the hanger doesn't reduce your short-escrow obligations. Partially filling a short-order from the hanger will reduce your short-escrow requirement proportionally on that position.
Short orders may only be placed and maintained if there are enough units on the market at a higher price to cover the position (Shown in the long/short interest field of the market details,) and are automatically canceled if the long interest drops below a sustaining level. All the normal Marketing and Daytrading mechanics apply with short orders.
Requires Trade 5, Accounting 4, and Margin Trading 5
Implementation: "Place Short Order" button next to "Export To File" in the Market Details screen. Add "short-escrow" field to Wallet->Orders and Market->Orders screens. Add fields to Market Details and History to show long vs. short interest.
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.02.12 17:42:00 -
[48]
This is more for contracts than market
A way to right click a contract assigned to you and insta-accept. Same as when viewing a new corporate member application you can now right click and accept without viewing the application.
I want the same to apply to contracts,
right click contract assigned to you>
view
accept
deny
block contracts from this sender
Some other simple contract functionality too like contract template abilities and the likes. Contracts has the potential to do great things but atm it kinda feels like i am looking in my wife's purse. There's money in there but it's between receipts all over the place, makeup, jewellery and everything else.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=500043
Largest Empire Research Alliance in EVE! |
Roguehalo
Caldari
RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2008.02.12 18:07:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ricdic
A way to right click a contract assigned to you and insta-accept. Same as when viewing a new corporate member application you can now right click and accept without viewing the application.
I want the same to apply to contracts,
I hope you are not suggesting people accept contacts without viewing them ? 
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Kwint Sommer
Incoherent Inc
Otaku Invasion
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Posted - 2008.02.12 18:26:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Roguehalo
Originally by: Ricdic
A way to right click a contract assigned to you and insta-accept. Same as when viewing a new corporate member application you can now right click and accept without viewing the application.
I want the same to apply to contracts,
I hope you are not suggesting people accept contacts without viewing them ?
I believe he is, I have daily contracts between two of my characters and I have absolutely no need to read them. I would definitely appreciate this feature.
5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants |
Drevar
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Posted - 2008.02.12 22:00:00 -
[51]
One that should be quite easy to impliment, but may go against the whole Need for Speed thingy.
Market Pulse
Pre-req Trade V, Daytrading V
Reduces the time between order modifications by 10% (30 seconds) per level.
I soooo hate having to wait 5 minutes to fix a screwed up order.
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Prospor
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Posted - 2008.02.13 11:19:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Prospor on 13/02/2008 11:21:13
Probably worthless to most traders, but here's a couple that struck me when I first started building things and using mineral trades to help fund it; in short, I'd love to be able to change quantity on orders instead of just price.
Receiving:
When purchasing stock, any buy orders you currently have up for that module are adjusted as if they were filled by an equal amount. Progression would be the same as Marketing, Procurement, etc.
For example: You place a buy order for 10 million tritanium, then realize you need 2 million units right now. You purchase those at another station in the system, and your buy order is adjusted to show 8 million units remaining.
Warehouse Management:
Allows the seller to keep a supply of modules in hanger when listing them for sale. If the modules are moved, the sell order quantity is adjusted appropriately. Progression would be the same as Margin Trading.
For example: You decide to sell your surplus units tritanium, and put up 10 million of your remaining 20 million stock for sale. When building your next set of modules later that week, you fall 2 million units short. You can then use some of the tritanium that is for sale to complete your manufacturing, and your sell order is adjusted down by 2 million. If you had already sold more than 8 million, you can cancel the order and purchase the rest.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.13 18:00:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Drevar
One that should be quite easy to impliment, but may go against the whole Need for Speed thingy.
Market Pulse
Pre-req Trade V, Daytrading V
Reduces the time between order modifications by 10% (30 seconds) per level.
I soooo hate having to wait 5 minutes to fix a screwed up order.
Except it would be abused by the .01 jumpers. How about just allowing Cancel Order to be immediate?
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.13 18:08:00 -
[54]
Here's another idea I've had:
Bulk Sales
Req: Trade III
Allow sellers to dictate the quantity of the item that must be purchased at a time. Players would then be buying stacks of items, so the quantity listed must be evenly divided by the number of stacks (eg, 10 stacks of 10 webifiers requires exactly 100 to be offered)
For each level allow the minimum to be raised by x10, so at level one would allow stacks of 10, Level two to 100, three to 1000, four to 10000 and five to 100000.
I can see this being especially important in the mineral market, where stacks of a hundred-thousand units can be placed cheaper than a stack of ten, but only at that quantity.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.13 18:18:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Drevar
One that should be quite easy to impliment, but may go against the whole Need for Speed thingy.
Market Pulse
Pre-req Trade V, Daytrading V
Reduces the time between order modifications by 10% (30 seconds) per level.
I soooo hate having to wait 5 minutes to fix a screwed up order.
Absolutely not. In fact the game is gong to move the other way, devs already stated they are thinking of moving the timer up even more. You shouldn't have to fix a screwed up order as you should never screw an order up, if you do it often you need to slow down as you're likely going to lose a boatload of money by adding too many zeros one time.
Originally by: Prospor
Receiving:
When purchasing stock, any buy orders you currently have up for that module are adjusted as if they were filled by an equal amount. Progression would be the same as Marketing, Procurement, etc.
For example: You place a buy order for 10 million tritanium, then realize you need 2 million units right now. You purchase those at another station in the system, and your buy order is adjusted to show 8 million units remaining.
Warehouse Management:
Allows the seller to keep a supply of modules in hanger when listing them for sale. If the modules are moved, the sell order quantity is adjusted appropriately. Progression would be the same as Margin Trading.
For example: You decide to sell your surplus units tritanium, and put up 10 million of your remaining 20 million stock for sale. When building your next set of modules later that week, you fall 2 million units short. You can then use some of the tritanium that is for sale to complete your manufacturing, and your sell order is adjusted down by 2 million. If you had already sold more than 8 million, you can cancel the order and purchase the rest.
No to both.
The first is WAY too complicated, what you really want is a skill that lets you change the order quantity. I think that's a bad idea too, but at least it wouldn't be as computationally expensive as this idea.
The second is equally bad. Trading is not just about going all out at all times, you have to actually think and plan ahead sometimes. There should be strategy involved. Will you need to produce in the near future? If so you better keep some minerals in stock. You have to decide if it's worth keeping them in stock or not. If you need the minerals after listing them then cancel your order and re-list it.
Both of your skills are merely ways to avoid paying broker fees in reality. You don't want to have to cancel your order and re-list it and thus pay the fees again. IMO that's part of the strategy of trading and you should have to make the tough decisions.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.13 19:21:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/02/2008 19:21:55
One more:
Frugality
When placing an advanced order to buy a quantity of items already listed for sale, the Frugality skill adjusts the amount paid to match the Seller's listed price rather than overpaying for all except the highest offer. Reading through the new players forums, it's amazing how many people actually expect this to be the way the market works, until they learn otherwise.
For example: if there are the following sell orders for Small Shield Boosters: 1 @ 4500 ISK, 25 @ 5000 ISK, 10 @ 6000 ISK. The buyer specifes the quantity he wants (35) and would pay (1x4500)+(25x5000)+(9x6000) = 183,500 ISK, rather than 35x6000=210,000 isk.
Each level expands the range at which Frugality is effective (Level 1 = Current Station, Level 2 = Current System, Level 3=2 Jumps, Level 4=10 Jumps, Level 5 = Regional)
(note: I'm not sure whether to be happy or insulted Shadarle hasn't commented on any of my ideas yet. Either they're not worthy of ridicule, or solid enough not to need criticism)
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.13 19:58:00 -
[57]
I very much dislike "Frugality" as it again removes strategy and removes the need to take your time.
If you're too lazy to buy them all up one at a time then you should pay the extra few % to do it in one go. If you just screwed up and put too many zeros then that is your fault as well and you should pay for it. So I see no reason for this skill to exist.
As to the bulk orders idea, in theory I have no problem with bulk orders, but I dislike your implementation. It is worthless for any high volume items and it is stupid for low volume items. Why would you want to stop people from buying your items in lower quantities? The only reason to do bulk orders (imo) is to encourage people to buy in larger quantities and thus giving them a discount for that so you can unload items quicker. Unfortunately it seems complicated to include bulk orders into the interface, the buy/sell order windows would have to be greatly modified to accommodate a good implementation. Your implementation would indeed be easier to implement but fairly lacking in usefulness.
The biggest problem with your implementation is the hard and fast numbers. 10/100/1000/10000/100000, etc. That's worthless for Trit for example, even for Pyer/Mex among other things perhaps. A percentage system may be better, such as a percentage of the average daily volume traded or something? Or a percentage of your total quantity for sale. Not really sure if either of these would be a good idea. Frankly I think the advantages of bulk orders is not great enough to make it worth adding complexity to the client... but if someone had a great solution then I'd not be against it at all.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.13 20:23:00 -
[58]
Ha, I knew I'd get some attention around here ;)
Originally by: Shadarle
I very much dislike "Frugality" as it again removes strategy and removes the need to take your time.
If you're too lazy to buy them all up one at a time then you should pay the extra few % to do it in one go. If you just screwed up and put too many zeros then that is your fault as well and you should pay for it. So I see no reason for this skill to exist.
The purpose behind "Frugality" is twofold: first, to align mechanics with expected market behavior; second, to make market manipulation and Cherrypicking more rewarding by saving the time it takes to buy the lowball orders up. Sure, someone in the know can sit there for ten minutes, clicking on each undervalued item and buying it in the appropriate amounts. But IMHO it's just a time sink that can be better served by adding a skill that rewards people who do this anyway. The ones who can't be bothered to train the skill will still be punished by being forced to pay full price.
And it's not just a few percent -- when buying named components, for example, the spread between the bottom ten orders can be 50-100% or more. If your plan is to buy them all and relist them all at a higher rate, you can waste half your profit just to save five minutes or longer, if you're in a laggy trade hub.
Originally by: Shadarle
As to the bulk orders idea, in theory I have no problem with bulk orders, but I dislike your implementation. It is worthless for any high volume items and it is stupid for low volume items. Why would you want to stop people from buying your items in lower quantities? The only reason to do bulk orders (imo) is to encourage people to buy in larger quantities and thus giving them a discount for that so you can unload items quicker. Unfortunately it seems complicated to include bulk orders into the interface, the buy/sell order windows would have to be greatly modified to accommodate a good implementation. Your implementation would indeed be easier to implement but fairly lacking in usefulness.
I intentionally kept away from automatic tier pricing because that would drastically alter the interface even more. As it is, the Sell window would only need to be changed to include a "Quantity" field which is already there on the Buy window. Minimum interface changes and all that.
As for why, you already answered it: to sell items in higher quantites in situtations where multiple .01 isk sellers all have 1-2 items priced for pennies below yours. As someone who deals in bulk T1 goods I don't see it lacking in usefullness nearly as much as someone who deals in lower quantity high-ticket items might.
Originally by: Shadarle
The biggest problem with your implementation is the hard and fast numbers. 10/100/1000/10000/100000, etc. That's worthless for Trit for example, even for Pyer/Mex among other things perhaps. A percentage system may be better, such as a percentage of the average daily volume traded or something? Or a percentage of your total quantity for sale. Not really sure if either of these would be a good idea. Frankly I think the advantages of bulk orders is not great enough to make it worth adding complexity to the client... but if someone had a great solution then I'd not be against it at all.
Keep in mind those numbers were the quantity required in each stack...a million trit is simply 10 stacks of 100k. Watching my mineral orders, I typically see them moving in several low-quantity amounts (a few hundred units) followed by one or two huge orders that take the rest of my stock. Besides minerals and other bulk raw materials, also keep in mind other potential markets for this, such as Salvage, Ammunition & Drones, Trade Goods, POS Fuel, and even frigates.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.13 20:48:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Shadarle on 13/02/2008 20:48:58
Originally by: Alz Shado
And it's not just a few percent -- when buying named components, for example, the spread between the bottom ten orders can be 50-100% or more. If your plan is to buy them all and relist them all at a higher rate, you can waste half your profit just to save five minutes or longer, if you're in a laggy trade hub.
Don't you think people should have to make that decision then, do they want to spend their time to get the best value or do they want to spend a bit more money to save time? Why should they be given an easy-mode skill to train? Skills shouldn't reduce the thought required to play.
Originally by: Alz Shado
As for why, you already answered it: to sell items in higher quantites in situtations where multiple .01 isk sellers all have 1-2 items priced for pennies below yours. As someone who deals in bulk T1 goods I don't see it lacking in usefullness nearly as much as someone who deals in lower quantity high-ticket items might.
Ok, so now I understand it a bit more. You basically hate the way the market works currently. You dislike it being a broker based system and want it to be a shop based system. Thus the reason for your first skill and thus the reason for this skill. You're trying to make the system into the way you personally want it to act, rather than the way it currently acts. I personally love that EVE uses a broker system, it makes it far more interesting and makes it different then every other mmorpg out there. Changing one dynamic after another so that it mimics a shop based system is a bad idea IMO.
This is basically what you're doing here by saying if someone wants 10 of an item they can bypass the lower orders on the market and buy all 10 from you at a higher price. I have no clue why they'd do that... it seems fairly stupid for them, they should just buy up 10 units singularly for less money each. If you'd price your 10 units cheaper per unit then the individual units then you are only hurting yourself to require people to buy 10 at a time, why not allow people to buy up each individual unit?
The reason a system which has multiple pricing tier works is because you can charge more for 1 unit then you do for 10. Now that makes sense. Simply adding a minimum purchase requirement is hurting you as a seller.
Originally by: Alz Shado
also keep in mind other potential markets for this
I was and am, that's why I am saying any such sill must be usable in any sized market imo. A fixed unit amount is not good enough, it has to be variable with the market somehow.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.13 21:28:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Shadarle
Don't you think people should have to make that decision then, do they want to spend their time to get the best value or do they want to spend a bit more money to save time? Why should they be given an easy-mode skill to train? Skills shouldn't reduce the thought required to play.
By that same logic, the Refinery Efficiency skill is pretty pointless, because you can avoid highend mineral waste by splitting a 1000 item stack into 333 stacks of 3. Nevermind that it takes an hour and wears out my keyboard by shift-clicking that many times, not to mention adds lag the system with all the extra database transactions.
I don't see Frugality as an "Easy-Mode" -- I see it as a reward for doing your research and knowing where there's value to be plundered. It doesn't reduce thought, it increases the efficiency of traders while not negatively effecting anyone else. There are a lot of other skills out there to make cumbersome processes more efficient, from navigation to manufacturing. And it makes the market mechanics more logical at the same time.
Originally by: Shadarle
Ok, so now I understand it a bit more. You basically hate the way the market works currently. You dislike it being a broker based system and want it to be a shop based system. Thus the reason for your first skill and thus the reason for this skill. You're trying to make the system into the way you personally want it to act, rather than the way it currently acts. I personally love that EVE uses a broker system, it makes it far more interesting and makes it different then every other mmorpg out there. Changing one dynamic after another so that it mimics a shop based system is a bad idea IMO.
Absolutely not. I love that EVE has an anonymous and free market. What I don't understand is why the same tools given on Buyer's side of the transaction (minimum quantities) can't also be used by the seller.
Originally by: Shadarle
This is basically what you're doing here by saying if someone wants 10 of an item they can bypass the lower orders on the market and buy all 10 from you at a higher price. I have no clue why they'd do that... it seems fairly stupid for them, they should just buy up 10 units singularly for less money each. If you'd price your 10 units cheaper per unit then the individual units then you are only hurting yourself to require people to buy 10 at a time, why not allow people to buy up each individual unit?
The reason a system which has multiple pricing tier works is because you can charge more for 1 unit then you do for 10. Now that makes sense. Simply adding a minimum purchase requirement is hurting you as a seller.
That's exactly what I want to do: list my 10 item stack for *less* than the 1-2 item sellers when accounted on a per-item basis. Buy orders are sorted by Price Per Unit, not by quantity, so should sell orders? And how am I hurting myself -- if I want to be the Sams Club of EVE and offer in bulk for a lower overall margin, why not? As it is, a 1000 item sell order will just intimidate the rest of the low-volume sellers and cause a panic to not get blocked out of the market by *my* massive pile which will take a week to sell off. It hurts me *more* as a seller when everyone else bottoms out the market trying to get ahead of me. I could just list 5-10 items at a time, but when they sell off I stop making profit which hurts just as bad!
Originally by: Shadarle
I was and am, that's why I am saying any such sill must be usable in any sized market imo. A fixed unit amount is not good enough, it has to be variable with the market somehow.
Variable quantites complicates the process, but it does match the minimum quantity buy order mechanic so technically I'm not opposed. Fixing the limit at the skill however encourages bulk traders to train the skill up, and keeps noob alts from putting up 100k stacks on their first day. If you have another idea for skill progression rewards, I'd be glad to hear it.
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Dzil
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.14 21:31:00 -
[61]
Oh yea, I'm adding in a 5th suggestion:
Kiosk
Pre reqs: Advanced spaceship command I, Retail V, [Race] Industrial V
Allows flight of a new type of spaceship that would function as a mobile trade stand. Ship would have a decent cargo capacity and tank, and could "trade" in a number of items equal to your skill rank while in deploy mode. Ship would be incapable of deploying on the same grid as a jumpgate, station or POS unless it's owner had permission from the sovereignty there, so as to avoid a massive cluster jam in Jita.
This might allow the ship's owner to set up localized shop, with the ability to not only quickly move his goods, but also make on the fly deals with local neighbors. See a few miners at a belt? Deploy your kiosk right next to them and offer to buy the ore. Maybe sell them a few drones for protection. Mission runner needs some missles? Help is on the way (for a modest upcharge, of course).
And here's the kicker - because you're not on the market, you don't pay any taxes or brokerage fees. Of course, there's the risk that your goods are in a spaceship with finite HP rather than a nice invulnerable station, but what is EVE without a little risk? ;)
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.02.15 02:27:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Vested Interest on 15/02/2008 02:27:45
"Frugality" is one of my favorites out of this but I don't think it should take a skill.
I take issue with the mechanic that allows someone to sell their stuff for less than the best price, and also lets someone accidently pay orders of magnitude more than the best price for something.
If you go to sell your stuff and accidently key a price below the best offer, it should auto adjust to the best price and complete the deal against that order.
If you are buying, and you mash in some extra zeros, it should correct your offer to the best price too.
This is coming from a trader who's far more often the receiver of these unexpected windfalls, than the victim. I'm sick of seeing someone sold me units for 11,000 that sell for 1,100,000 or even 11,000,000 and then finding out their cat jumped on the keyboard or something stupid like that.
I would gladly pay my asking price, or sell the units at my offering price and give these windfalls up.
This may be best left to another thread though. But I am interested in some honest opinions on either side of my position.
Edit: on paper this would allow you to place a buy order for as many units are as on the market, but only pay the asked price for each. Placing a single order to "clear the board" at the asking prices should be an option.
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.02.15 03:05:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Vested Interest on 15/02/2008 03:05:20
Originally by: Dzil
I think it would be a terrible mistake by CCP to nerf trading and then offer it back through skills - whether in the form of requiring skills to use tools we have today, or in adding more taxes that required more skills to neutralize. Nothing about that adds any more "fun" to trading, it just requires more time on the treadmill.
I'm kinda on the fence with this. See, I think they got Daytrading wrong. To me this implies the ability to modify my orders at an increased frequency rather than at X number of jumps from the market. Real-life daytraders enter and exit positions multiple times per day and it has nothing to do with how far from the market they're sitting.
Daytrading should really be called something like Telemarketing.
That said, if I was feeling truly  I'd suggest limiting order modifications to 3x per day (once per shift) and the addition of the skill:
Floor Trader
At level 5 would allow the current 5 minute duration between order modifications that we currently enjoy for free.
This would encourage people buying and selling at the single-use use level to place their order and leave instead of lingering around all day to adjust it. It'd really separate the Jita-style pit traders into a field of their own, separate from the folks who just want to move their loot or their productions. The skill requirements wouldn't be excessive, maybe Retail 5.
Just enough to make people commit a slight amount of training for the ability to stay on top of their positions. I guarantee all the serious traders would put it right on the top of their skill list and it would discourage those just dabbling in the market from trying to keep up with the big boys 
But yeah it might have a detrimental effect on, well, non-traders profits
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.02.15 22:03:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Dzil
Kiosk
Pre reqs: Advanced spaceship command I, Retail V, [Race] Industrial V
Allows flight of a new type of spaceship that would function as a mobile trade stand.
That sounds like something I'd suggested in an older thread as a Syndicate Merchantile as a floating 0.0 trade station and would be awesome to have.
Originally by: Vested Interest
"Frugality" is one of my favorites out of this but I don't think it should take a skill.
I take issue with the mechanic that allows someone to sell their stuff for less than the best price, and also lets someone accidently pay orders of magnitude more than the best price for something.
I agree that it's a confusing mechanic but it's the one that the Devs have given us. It does allow for some market darwinism, and as guilty as I feel when I see someone buying my goods for 10 or 100x the advertised price I'm not going to give their money back ;) (I've done it enough times myself to feel even)
I also sort-of agree with the time limit skill, except that in 2-3 months all the trade alts will have that at 5 anyway so I don't see it as being a solution to +.01 isking. My suggestions for fixing that mechanic would be to boost the broker's fee from 100isk to 1000isk for modifying transactions, to limit orders to 1-3-5-7 days and to not reset the timer when the order is modified. That would still allow for healthy economic shifts, while discouraging the five minute bunnyhopping.
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.02.17 03:15:00 -
[65]
My suggestion for limiting order modifications was not meant to "combat" 0.01 undercutting. Nothing wrong with that at all.
It was just mentioned that CCP wanted to dampen down the order modification rate and that's how I'd probably suggest it.
You might think that people would take a week to train up a basic set of trade skills, but my experience in the market says otherwise. Most of my corp mates cba to even train up to Daytrading. Too many guns and ewar skills in the plan to bother.
Hence I think it'd act as somewhat of a natural governor on the market.
I'm mostly neutral on whether we need such a thing though. The trader in me loves the idea of making it take a bit more specialization to enjoy frequent order modifications.
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Roguehalo
Caldari
RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2008.02.17 04:33:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Dzil
Oh yea, I'm adding in a 5th suggestion:
Kiosk
Pre reqs: Advanced spaceship command I, Retail V, [Race] Industrial V
Allows flight of a new type of spaceship that would function as a mobile trade stand. Ship would have a decent cargo capacity and tank, and could "trade" in a number of items equal to your skill rank while in deploy mode. Ship would be incapable of deploying on the same grid as a jumpgate, station or POS unless it's owner had permission from the sovereignty there, so as to avoid a massive cluster jam in Jita.
This might allow the ship's owner to set up localized shop, with the ability to not only quickly move his goods, but also make on the fly deals with local neighbors. See a few miners at a belt? Deploy your kiosk right next to them and offer to buy the ore. Maybe sell them a few drones for protection. Mission runner needs some missles? Help is on the way (for a modest upcharge, of course).
And here's the kicker - because you're not on the market, you don't pay any taxes or brokerage fees. Of course, there's the risk that your goods are in a spaceship with finite HP rather than a nice invulnerable station, but what is EVE without a little risk? ;)
This is a great suggestion and one that I like very much.
But I do rather think that a very big ship wandering about stuffed full of goodies is kinda gonna be on the top of every pew pewers target list
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Roguehalo
Caldari
RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2008.02.20 11:48:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Roguehalo on 20/02/2008 11:50:45
The list of suggestions received so far is as follows :-
1/ Advanced Accounting
2/ Undercut
3/ Markup
4/ Advertisement
5/ Regional Daytrading
6/ Advanced Broker Relations
7/ Market Intelligence
8/ Acquisition
9/ Distribution
10/Corporate Marketing
11/Renewable Contracting
12/Mega-Tycoon
13/Market Espionage
14/Order Origination
15/Corporation Daytrading
16/Regional Contacts
17/Corporate Regional Trading
18/Corporate Ordering
19/Regional Marketing
20/Office Administration
21/Smuggle
22/Bribe
23/Brokers friend
24/Regional Contracting
25/Back Office
26/Advanced Broker Relations
27/Market Radar
28/Full Disclosure
29/Friends in High Places
30/Anti Trust
31/The Lawyers
32/The Firm
33/Cooked Books
34/Marketing Campaign
35/Banking
36/Stock Exchange
37/Investment Research
38/Short Selling
39/Advanced Contracting
40/Market Pulse
41/Receiving
42/Warehouse Management
43/Bulk Sales
44/Frugality
45/Kiosk
46/Floor Trader
I've invented names in a few cases where the op didn't give one. I'll be announcing the winner tomorrow. Thx all for the amazing response
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Roguehalo
Caldari
RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2008.02.21 10:30:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Roguehalo
Edited by: Roguehalo on 20/02/2008 11:50:45
The list of suggestions received so far is as follows :-
1/ Advanced Accounting
2/ Undercut
3/ Markup
4/ Advertisement
5/ Regional Daytrading
6/ Advanced Broker Relations
7/ Market Intelligence
8/ Acquisition
9/ Distribution
10/Corporate Marketing
11/Renewable Contracting
12/Mega-Tycoon
13/Market Espionage
14/Order Origination
15/Corporation Daytrading
16/Regional Contacts
17/Corporate Regional Trading
18/Corporate Ordering
19/Regional Marketing
20/Office Administration
21/Smuggle
22/Bribe
23/Brokers friend
24/Regional Contracting
25/Back Office
26/Advanced Broker Relations
27/Market Radar
28/Full Disclosure
29/Friends in High Places
30/Anti Trust
31/The Lawyers
32/The Firm
33/Cooked Books
34/Marketing Campaign
35/Banking
36/Stock Exchange
37/Investment Research
38/Short Selling
39/Advanced Contracting
40/Market Pulse
41/Receiving
42/Warehouse Management
43/Bulk Sales
44/Frugality
45/Kiosk
46/Floor Trader
I've invented names in a few cases where the op didn't give one. I'll be announcing the winner tomorrow. Thx all for the amazing response
Without more ado I've decided to award the 10m isk to delfy4 for his suggestion that market quickbar should have more tabs. On the basis that the market quickbar can be likened to a drawer in a filing cabinet I've called the skill office administration. I've come up myself with a complementary suggestion that there should be more tabs in the assets window.
So herewith are 2 new trade skills for CCPs consideration :-
1/ Ofice Administration : each level grants one extra market quickbar
2/ Warehouse Administration : each level grants one extra assets window tab
10m isk has been sent to delfy4. Thanks to all those that posted suggestions
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 11:03:00 -
[69]
my understanding is this is on the test server, and no skills required
--
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Roguehalo
Caldari
RH Ship Brokers
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 11:09:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Treelox
my understanding is this is on the test server, and no skills required
I've never been on the test server but it's nice to know that mine and CCPs thinking coincides
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 11:22:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Roguehalo
Originally by: Treelox
my understanding is this is on the test server, and no skills required
I've never been on the test server but it's nice to know that mine and CCPs thinking coincides
or maybe your an ebil dev alt sent here to destroy us.......
:P~
--
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Lindsay Fox
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 12:07:00 -
[72]
Well this turned out to be quite the knuckle-headed idea.
First, most of your suggestions are just things to make life easier. I'm surprised that nobody suggested 'Profitability - the skill that multiplies your profits by 0.1% per level trained' :)
I have news for you, Eve isn't like that.
Second, the winning idea isn't even a skill, but a UI enhancement. The OP then created a skill that will result in different UI capabilities depending on how high you've trained it. I don't think there is a single skill in the whole game that works like that.
Personally I think the whole trade skill tree needs to be split up into specialised areas, which would result in 40 or 50 new skills. The same way that a Caldari pilot has different skills to train so they can use the T2 versions of each type of missile, it should be the same with traders.
As an example, 'broker relations' would become:
- Broker relations (Materials)
- Broker relations (Equipment)
- Broker relations (Ships)
- Broker relations (Rigs)
and so on. Someone might be able to come up with a scheme that makes more sense, but my point i that this is how all the other professions in Eve have to do things, so traders should as well. Yes it would take years to train all of these individually to V, but that's the whole point.
As it stands now, you can roll a trader character and then max out their trade related skills in a few months. Sure, CCP needs to add a few advanced skills, and some of the ideas in this thread are good, but I think it's more important to split the existing skills up so that a trader's training plan is as long and frustrating as anyone else's.
At the end of they day, we should be looking for a skill set that gives the 5-year veteran as much of an advantage in trading as a similarly-aged combat character would have. At the moment it's just not fine-grained enough.
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Hersheff
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 13:51:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Lindsay Fox
Well this turned out to be quite the knuckle-headed idea.
First, most of your suggestions are just things to make life easier. I'm surprised that nobody suggested 'Profitability - the skill that multiplies your profits by 0.1% per level trained' :)
I have news for you, Eve isn't like that.
Second, the winning idea isn't even a skill, but a UI enhancement. The OP then created a skill that will result in different UI capabilities depending on how high you've trained it. I don't think there is a single skill in the whole game that works like that.
Personally I think the whole trade skill tree needs to be split up into specialised areas, which would result in 40 or 50 new skills. The same way that a Caldari pilot has different skills to train so they can use the T2 versions of each type of missile, it should be the same with traders.
As an example, 'broker relations' would become:
- Broker relations (Materials)
- Broker relations (Equipment)
- Broker relations (Ships)
- Broker relations (Rigs)
and so on. Someone might be able to come up with a scheme that makes more sense, but my point i that this is how all the other professions in Eve have to do things, so traders should as well. Yes it would take years to train all of these individually to V, but that's the whole point.
As it stands now, you can roll a trader character and then max out their trade related skills in a few months. Sure, CCP needs to add a few advanced skills, and some of the ideas in this thread are good, but I think it's more important to split the existing skills up so that a trader's training plan is as long and frustrating as anyone else's.
At the end of they day, we should be looking for a skill set that gives the 5-year veteran as much of an advantage in trading as a similarly-aged combat character would have. At the moment it's just not fine-grained enough.
I wont even comment on how bad that idea is.
Let me just say, if you are a 5 year old char, that does not make you _berlord on pvp, skills go a long way true, but that does not mean an 2 year char cant come and pop your ship.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now, quiet! The're about to announce the lottery numbers... |
delfy4
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 15:25:00 -
[74]
Edited by: delfy4 on 21/02/2008 15:27:45
Edited by: delfy4 on 21/02/2008 15:25:33
Originally by: Roguehalo
Originally by: Roguehalo
Edited by: Roguehalo on 20/02/2008 11:50:45
Without more ado I've decided to award the 10m isk to delfy4 for his suggestion that market quickbar should have more tabs. On the basis that the market quickbar can be likened to a drawer in a filing cabinet I've called the skill office administration. I've come up myself with a complementary suggestion that there should be more tabs in the assets window.
10m isk has been sent to delfy4. Thanks to all those that posted suggestions
Thank you :)
and now i present my own hardcore fix for that problem, until ccp will finally implement folders/multiple quickbars or even something better. It's awkward and might harm innocent children. It's just concept of proof example.
WARNING - this material is provided for educational purpose only. use that on your own risk
Following solution applies to windows XP. users of other operating systems will have to figure some alternative.
On your local hard drive, there's a folder where Eve stores it's settings, among which is quickbar's content
That folder could be found at location :
"C:\Documents and Settings\<windows account username>\Local Settings\Application Data\CCP\EVE\settings\"
<windows account username> is your windows account name. in case you don't know it, explore the "c:\documents and settings" folder, it's out there :)
Alternatively you can try searching for file "char__.dat" , that might lead you out to the right place.
Here were're gonna create two different profiles that would have different quickbar content. let's say one would be for minerals, and the other for raw ore.
Step 1) backup "C:\Documents and Settings\<windows account username>\Local Settings\Application Data\CCP\EVE\settings\"
Step 2) Run eve, and fill your quickbar with minerals of your choice, exit eve, and make a copy of ...\eve\settings\ folder to ex. c:\eve-profile-minerals
Step 3) run eve again, clear the quickbar from minerals and fill it with ore instead. repeat copy process only this time copy the files to c:\eve-profile-ore
Now, whenever you want to launch eve with either profile, just copy the c:\eve-profile-something folder to original location which was "C:\Documents and Settings\<windows account username>\Local Settings\Application Data\CCP\EVE\settings\"
I assume the process could be automated by programming some sort of eve-profile-launcher.
hope that helps, sorry for so many words :)
fly safe
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 16:36:00 -
[75]
If there's to be anything salvaged from this, it's the hope that some developer took a moment to browse these ideas and came away with some inspiration for future updates to the Trade skills. Not having been posted in the "Features and Ideas Discussion", there's some chance the actual thought that went into everyone's suggestions might just be forgotten. But maybe, just maybe, we did some good here.
Personally, I thought Dzil and Ricdic had some really good ideas, and playing devils advocate Shadarle brought up excellent points that made the conversation worth discussing. It's hard to make a skill that won't unbalance the game or be too easy to exploit. I actually worked for a couple hours to figure out a way to make Short Selling in a way that wouldn't screw over consumers, buyers, sellers, manufacturers, or investors with a simple alt and couldn't do it without some major changes to the way the market currently works.
There are some features I'd love to see in Eve: a Stock Market, personal shops, manufacturers who can produce "named" items with custom attributes, investment opportunities (such as savings, loans, escrow accounts) All of these things require the most delicate balance to keep the economics running smoothly.
Basic changes to the game mechanics? That's really just icing on the cake, ain't it?
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SencneS
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 16:38:00 -
[76]
Too bad I was on vacation when this thread hit the forum. My idea is pretty simple.
Market Networking Skill tier 6
Skill that allows you to set premiums or discounts to sell orders according to personal standing.
Each level dictates how high or low standard will consider.
Level I -2.0 to 2.0
Level II -4.0 to 4.0
Level V -10.0 to 10.0
Corporate Market Networking Skill tier 6
Skill that allows you to set premiums or discounts to Corporate sell orders according to corporate standing.
Each level dictates how high or low standard will consider.
Level I -2.0 to 2.0
Level II -4.0 to 4.0
Level V -10.0 to 10.0
Mechanics are already in game, just look at any POS lab or factory. Wouldn't be much to port into the market.
This has MANY implementations in Empire and even more in 0.0
You want your 0.0 alliance to be able to purchase your equipment at a reasonable price, but you don't want your enemy to buy up all your stuff, so you train to level 4, have your alliance set to 8.0 an give them a 4% discount, have your enemy alliance set to -8.0 and have them a 20% premium.
In Empire you can setup Trade networks, I'll add you to my friends and give you a 10% discount if you add us, etc.
Amarr for Life |
Lindsay Fox
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 17:13:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Hersheff
I wont even comment on how bad that idea is.
Let me just say, if you are a 5 year old char, that does not make you _berlord on pvp, skills go a long way true, but that does not mean an 2 year char cant come and pop your ship.
You've completely misunderstood my point. it's got nothing to do with an old character being unkillable or anything like that. It's to do with having a learning tree that will keep offering you new stuff year in and year out.
I'll try to express it differently:
If you are a combat character, and you get more or less max skills in every combat-related category, you can burn about 160 million SP. That's about ten years worth of continual self-improvement.
The figure for trade-only characters is less than ten percent of that. This is what I was trying to get at...after a few months the trade-only character has nowhere left to go. Yeah, you can branch out into industry, mining, research...and you can train for freighters etc as well, but those are not trade-specific skills. They are different professions that traders end up training because there's nothing left in trade.
Now, there's no way they can come up with 50 or 60 million SP worth of new skills to fix this, so instead, the existing trade skills need to be split up into various specialties in the same way that combat characters have all the gunnery, missile, and spaceship command specialty skills.
http://ineve.net has the skill stats in the right-hand column if you don't believe these numbers.
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Shadarle
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 19:03:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Roguehalo
Originally by: Treelox
my understanding is this is on the test server, and no skills required
I've never been on the test server but it's nice to know that mine and CCPs thinking coincides
Yes, your amazing thinking. Perhaps you actually have not seen this posted about 10 times previously on this very forum... or the several posts in which people have said it was on the test server prior to this thread even starting. Never-the-less "suggestion" had nothing to do with what you wanted in the OP. Interface tweaks and skills are quite different. Making it a skill would be terrible, not to mention very unlikely.
You should go back through the actual skills and pick a decent one to award your gift to, just as long as it isn't one of mine because I don't want the ISK.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 19:18:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Lindsay Fox
Now, there's no way they can come up with 50 or 60 million SP worth of new skills to fix this, so instead, the existing trade skills need to be split up into various specialties in the same way that combat characters have all the gunnery, missile, and spaceship command specialty skills.
http://ineve.net has the skill stats in the right-hand column if you don't believe these numbers.
Actually, I think that market specialization is a great idea!
Look at all the specialization skills for processing ore in the Industry tab. Look at all the construction skills in the Mechanic category.
The market should allow for customization, depending on what kind of trade goods you choose to specialize in. Just like how anyone can reprocess Veldspar but some do it more efficiently, so too should traders be able to train up proficiencies in the different market categories:
* Ammunition & Charges
* Blueprints
* Drones
* Implants & Boosters
* Manufacture & Research
* Ship Equipment
* Ship Modifications
* Ships
* Skills
* Starbase Structures
* Trade Goods
The question then becomes, how does specializing in a given category help the trader? Because this is a support skill, it should augment the player's Accounting and Broker Relations skills. Both of these must be at Level V to be able to train the proficiency skills, which would reduce the tax and brokers fees each by 10% per level and would eliminate the fees altogether at Proficiency Level V. Assuming a learning time of about 45 days for each to get to level V, that adds 495 days to a trader's training schedule.
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Roguehalo
Caldari
RH Ship Brokers
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 19:42:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Alz Shado
Originally by: Lindsay Fox
Now, there's no way they can come up with 50 or 60 million SP worth of new skills to fix this, so instead, the existing trade skills need to be split up into various specialties in the same way that combat characters have all the gunnery, missile, and spaceship command specialty skills.
http://ineve.net has the skill stats in the right-hand column if you don't believe these numbers.
Actually, I think that market specialization is a great idea!
Look at all the specialization skills for processing ore in the Industry tab. Look at all the construction skills in the Mechanic category.
The market should allow for customization, depending on what kind of trade goods you choose to specialize in. Just like how anyone can reprocess Veldspar but some do it more efficiently, so too should traders be able to train up proficiencies in the different market categories:
* Ammunition & Charges
* Blueprints
* Drones
* Implants & Boosters
* Manufacture & Research
* Ship Equipment
* Ship Modifications
* Ships
* Skills
* Starbase Structures
* Trade Goods
The question then becomes, how does specializing in a given category help the trader? Because this is a support skill, it should augment the player's Accounting and Broker Relations skills. Both of these must be at Level V to be able to train the proficiency skills, which would reduce the tax and brokers fees each by 10% per level and would eliminate the fees altogether at Proficiency Level V. Assuming a learning time of about 45 days for each to get to level V, that adds 495 days to a trader's training schedule.
Actually it was this kind of debate I wanted my original post to provoke. But after this post I kind of got a bit discouraged :-
"I think it would be a terrible mistake by CCP to nerf trading and then offer it back through skills - whether in the form of requiring skills to use tools we have today, or in adding more taxes that required more skills to neutralize. Nothing about that adds any more "fun" to trading, it just requires more time on the treadmill."
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 19:45:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Roguehalo
Actually it was this kind of debate I wanted my original post to provoke. But after this post I kind of got a bit discouraged :-
"I think it would be a terrible mistake by CCP to nerf trading and then offer it back through skills - whether in the form of requiring skills to use tools we have today, or in adding more taxes that required more skills to neutralize. Nothing about that adds any more "fun" to trading, it just requires more time on the treadmill.
Except that isn't a nerf -- it leaves the current system as-is, and only offers a way to reduce the fees and taxes imposed on Traders to give an ever-so slight advantage over the casual player. No new taxes, just ways to cut the old taxes even further.
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