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Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 16:46:00 - [1] Ok. I want to know people's opinions on this matter. The other day, my corpmate was mining in high sec. He was then stolen from by a guy in a T2 frigate (Ishkur). I was in a small gang with my alliance mates at the time. They are all in a different corp, but we fly together almost daily... The thing is, we (our gang of 4), flew to the system where my corpmate was being basically griefed in high sec. He was basically being harassed by this player who had nothing better to do than steal ore (2 or 3 units at a time). Once my gang got to the asteroid belt, this T2 frig was red to me in my overview, so I attacked him in my well fitted Thorax. The battle was on, but to my shock, all my FLEET MATES could do was watch him slowly destroy me. The battle took a good 5 minutes, but he finally took me down, and then flew off with no consequences. My question is this... why the hell can't Alliance mates that are IN MY FLEET engage a guy that I can engage??? I think this is totally absurd. I can understand possibly not allowing ALL alliance mates to have kill rights, but for Goddsakes, if they are in my fleet and ALLIED to me and my corp mate that is also in the gang, why the hell can't they attack this griefer??? Am I missing something here??? The griefer laughed at me and said it "wouldn't be fair to him" if my alliance mates were able to target him. That, to me, is a raging joke.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.09 16:47:00 - [2] Dude..... your head..... Did someone pop your torso?... Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 16:48:00 - [3] yeah, its a bug... I had to pay 10 buck to Eve to get a new portrait, which after 2 months still has not been updated here in the forums...
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 17:20:00 - [4] So, any advice as to a workaround on this? The only thing I can come up with is simply merging the Corps in the alliance, as the "Alliance" seems pretty much useless...
Dargaro Inozowa Gallente InoTech Productions	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:15:00 - [5] Laughing at you? He had to hide behind Concord law to get away. That in my eyes is pretty weak. /signed for fleet kill rights.
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:22:00 - [6] Everything is fine here. _______________
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:32:00 - [7] Edited by: MenanceWhite on 09/02/2008 18:32:35 Originally by: Dez Affinity Edited by: Dez Affinity on 09/02/2008 18:27:43 Everything is fine here. Edit: Except dying to an ishkur. How did this happen while you were flying a "well fitted" thorax? Your gang did'nt have any remote reps ? --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:35:00 - [8] Well, this is not the point, but firstly, I am only a 2 month old character... no excuses there, just is what it is... I had T2 small blasters and fed navy ammo, a MWD some T2 hardeners, cap boosters etc... he outlasted my cap. I had him down to less than half his armor, and he was nos'ing me, stealing all my cap. I am not that experienced of a pvper... the point is... my GANG/FLEET should have been able to help.
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Shogun Archer Well, this is not the point, but firstly, I am only a 2 month old character... no excuses there, just is what it is... I had T2 small blasters and fed navy ammo, a MWD some T2 hardeners, cap boosters etc... he outlasted my cap. I had him down to less than half his armor, and he was nos'ing me, stealing all my cap. I am not that experienced of a pvper... the point is... my GANG/FLEET should have been able to help. Fit a 1600mm plate and use light drones against him, make sure you web him and he is done for. Your gang/fleet can help, they can use remote reps/cap transfers on you, they can bump the enemy. When you jetison a can it belongs to your corp not to your alliance and as such taking it only flags you to the corp. _______________
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:39:00 - [10] Plus he had me warp scrammed at the end. I had a T2 warp scrambler as well, and was using it on him in the beginning, but my cap was being thouroughly drained... again... not the point. the point is, what the hell use is forming a fleet with your alliance mates if they can't help you? and BTW, he is over a year old character, and the Ishkur is not a pushover ship. You guys are assuming a T1 cruiser worth 6 million should easily beat a T2 assault Frig... Not to say in the past, I HAVE taken down an Ishkur before, but it definitely is not "easy"
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:47:00 - [11] Dez, thanks for the tips, I appreciate that... (really) But whats te point of an alliance? If you are in the SAME FLEET with alliance mates, can you give me one good reason why they shouldn't have kill rights? Just one reason may be enough to sway my opinion if it is a good reason. I am an open minded guy...
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Shogun Archer Dez, thanks for the tips, I appreciate that... (really) But whats te point of an alliance? If you are in the SAME FLEET with alliance mates, can you give me one good reason why they shouldn't have kill rights? Just one reason may be enough to sway my opinion if it is a good reason. I am an open minded guy... Some people use can flagging mechanics as a method to get a fight, say a cruiser vs a cruiser. Now if it worked the way you say it would be impossible to tell if you really are going to be fighting cruiser vs cruiser or a bunch of recons are gonna uncloak and kill you, who you are actually flagging yourself too. Alliances, okay I guess but there isn't much need for it. _______________
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:55:00 - [13] Well thats the risk you are taking if you are griefing a miner IMO... he wasnt trying to get a fight with a cruiser... He was trying to get a fight with a peaceful miner. I am not a carebear myself, but I respect ppl who mine. BTW, i did use T1 hammerheads, 5 of them, but he had T2 drones attacking me...
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Shogun Archer Dez, thanks for the tips, I appreciate that... (really) But whats te point of an alliance? If you are in the SAME FLEET with alliance mates, can you give me one good reason why they shouldn't have kill rights? Just one reason may be enough to sway my opinion if it is a good reason. I am an open minded guy... Alliances aren't generally useful for high-sec corps, other than increasing the cost of war-deccing you. There are exceptions of course, but alliances are generally formed with 0.0 operations in mind, not high-sec gangs. The aggressions flags are pretty clear. Stealing loot/ore from a player causes the thief to get flagged to anyone in his corp and in his fleet. The problem is that your alliance mates were NOT in the same fleet as the miner when the theft took place, so the flag only applied to corp members. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:13:00 - [15] ahhhh. We (me and the other 3 alliance mates) were in a fleet when the theft took place. We then invited my corp mate to the fleet, and he joined us. Then me and the alliance mates waited in a spot until the guy in the Ishkur stole again... So I am guessing that the entire fleet was formed when the 2nd/3rd theft took place.. are you saying that if we were all in fleet (including the guy being stolen from) that we should have had kill rights? because if so, I'm pretty sure we were all in a fleet together at that point.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:21:00 - [16] Originally by: Shogun Archer are you saying that if we were all in fleet (including the guy being stolen from) that we should have had kill rights? You may want to test it or get someone else to confirm it, but to my understanding, that's how the mechanics work. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Misha Fillechienne Yarr'BQ	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:34:00 - [17] Whats going on with your head?
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:38:00 - [18] Originally by: Misha Fillechienne Whats going on with your head? I guess you didn't read the third post in this thread... thanks at least for the "bump".
Femaref Caldari Armageddon Day	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:51:00 - [19] Well you should have just killed his drones - They are the most of his damage.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:55:00 - [20] Originally by: Femaref Well you should have just killed his drones - They are the most of his damage. Good point. In the beginning of the fight, it looked pretty good for me... he gradually killed me with his drones... Next time, if I am ever in the situation again, i will do that. Thank you for the input, although I still think the fleet rules are screwy. The other thing thats dumb is that I can't practice pvp with alliance mates either... Still trying to see any real reason at all for alliances.
JAG Wolfe Smoke Eaters Corp.	Posted - 2008.02.09 20:17:00 - [21] Dude... what's up with your head? LOL - just kidding Must be annoying when trying to have a serious discussion to have people pointing out your floating head.. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [SMK.C]
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 20:22:00 - [22] Originally by: JAG Wolfe Dude... what's up with your head? LOL - just kidding Must be annoying when trying to have a serious discussion to have people pointing out your floating head.. :) Lol... yes... VERY annoying. I was actually going to make that point earlier, but decided not to Thanks for doing it for me
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.02.09 22:42:00 - [23] Gotta agree on this one, a lot of game mechanics that happen only at the corp level need to be moved to the alliance level, particularly when in fleet.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:12:00 - [24] So, do you think it's an accident or just something CCP doesn't think is important? The fleet/gang rules are screwy as well when you group run missions and try to tractor beam one of your fleetmates wrecks... Says something like, this wreck is not owned by you, you can't use your tractor beams on it. How long have fleets/gangs been in existence? Still seem pretty buggy to me.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Tamia Clant The aggressions flags are pretty clear. Stealing loot/ore from a player causes the thief to get flagged to anyone in his corp and in his fleet. The problem is that your alliance mates were NOT in the same fleet as the miner when the theft took place, so the flag only applied to corp members. That is not correct, only the corp owning the can will get the flagging, no one else.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Tamia Clant The aggressions flags are pretty clear. Stealing loot/ore from a player causes the thief to get flagged to anyone in his corp and in his fleet. The problem is that your alliance mates were NOT in the same fleet as the miner when the theft took place, so the flag only applied to corp members. That is not correct, only the corp owning the can will get the flagging, no one else. And that's exactly what I think is ridiculous... whats the point of fleeting together or being in an alliance? It makes absolutely no sense. Think about it. If a unit of US infantry in Iraq was getting shot at , and there were also some British soldiers there... Do you think the British would just be like, "Cheerio, good luck with that ya ****ers..." I doubt it. It makes absolutely no sense at all.
Sarkkon	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:59:00 - [27] agree Aliances doing missions or mining ops are siting ducks for theives, especially if say a 5 man fleet is made up of 2-3 diffrent member corps. When i started EVE, you flagged to corps AND aliances when you stole. Sometime after Red Moon Rising update this was changed to corp only to end "greifing" by alainces flipping miners ore. Not sure why CCP saw this as a grief tactic as 99% of can flippers are rookie corp hugging alts preying on industrial and mining aliances. With the increase of mission invasions as well alaince theft flagging need to come back. (gang flaggin not necessary i think in OP's case as his fleet was all aliance and theif would flag to all ganged or not.
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.02.11 02:26:00 - [28] The correct solution has already been stated in this thread. Always have remote repair capabilities in your gangs. If your gang members had had a remote armor rep (or even shield transfer) or a couple of remote rep drones they could have kept you alive. The end result would have been that you either managed to keep him scrammed and eventually killed him or you ran out of cap and he manages to run away. There is also a third possible result if the other pilot is a complete ******. When someone remote reps you they become flagged to the pilot attacking you. So, gang members repair you and the hostile is then able to attack them as well. IF he is stupid enough to do this then those he attacks can shoot back. Anyway, learn to use remote repair (modules or drones) and use them. Just be careful not to accidentally repair any NPCs in high sec
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.11 03:18:00 - [29] Originally by: Maglorre The correct solution has already been stated in this thread. Always have remote repair capabilities in your gangs. If your gang members had had a remote armor rep (or even shield transfer) or a couple of remote rep drones they could have kept you alive. The end result would have been that you either managed to keep him scrammed and eventually killed him or you ran out of cap and he manages to run away. There is also a third possible result if the other pilot is a complete ******. When someone remote reps you they become flagged to the pilot attacking you. So, gang members repair you and the hostile is then able to attack them as well. IF he is stupid enough to do this then those he attacks can shoot back. Anyway, learn to use remote repair (modules or drones) and use them. Just be careful not to accidentally repair any NPCs in high sec I suppose that is a decent "workaround", and was already discussed by our alliace mates, but why? Why shouldn't ppl that are in my fleet at the time of hostilities not be able to fire upon our common enemy? Whats the point of fleeting up? I appreciate your solution to the problem, but it still begs the question... Why can't we fire upon a common enemy? Why did CCP make alliance/fleet rules this way in the first place? What would be the harm in actually allowing fleetmates that are allied to you that are in the same system, less than 5000 meters away fire upon a common enemy?
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.02.11 07:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Shogun Archer Why can't we fire upon a common enemy? Why did CCP make alliance/fleet rules this way in the first place? What would be the harm in actually allowing fleetmates that are allied to you that are in the same system, less than 5000 meters away fire upon a common enemy? Because this is a game and allowing something like that would, more than likely, lead to massive exploitation somehow. Can't think of how off the top of my head but I'm sure there are people out there that would come up with interesting and/or borderline exploit uses of the mechanic. Probably one that totally turns the mechanic on it's head with the end result of people crying on the forums when they get owned. Cheers

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