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Cipher7	Posted - 2008.02.09 23:42:00 - [31] Originally by: LaVista Vista So because you dont have fun in the same way as i do, im not entitled to argue that the market has some flaws? "There's too much competition" is not a market flaw. I see all kinds of gaps in the market, entire constellations that are underserved, large swaths of territory where you have to travel 15 jumps to buy equipment. There's nobody selling to those people. Meanwhile you have 800 people in Jita trying to f*ck each other for .01 isk Do you not see anything wrong with the concept of trying to sell Ravens in Jita? You don't sound that stupid to me. Find out where the wars are. Supply the beligerents. Find underserved communities. Supply them. Find Empire/0.0 choke points where people fly in and lose ships. Stock them. Don't "sell" think of it as operating a weapons shop. Your job is to provide the community with toys, to save them the trouble of having to go to a hub. You can't just sell the ship. You have to sell everything that goes on the ship too. Thats why people go to hubs. They're not gonna buy an empty raven and fly to Jita to equip it. They'll fly to Jita in a shuttle, buy the Raven and all the equipment in one stop. You have to sell the launchers, the missiles, the shield hardeners, the cap relays if you want to sell the Raven. If people can get their whole setup in 1 stop, they will pay extra millions for not having to fly 15 jumps to buy a new ship. You're welcome. Now go play.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.09 23:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Reem Fairchild If you're making that kind of money off of tech 1 ship production, you're spending a lot of time online, you have a lot of capital, and you have an army of skilled alts. However, I can easily make about 100 mil/day with just my one industrial alt (this one), with about .7 - 1 bil in capital going into it and with about 1 hour or so (usually less) of online time per day. I don't do it as much as I should though, cause my main character and pvp combat is more fun. :) If i actually used my manufacturing slots aswell, you could easily add another 100mill on top of that. This is solely trading and researching.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.02.09 23:48:00 - [33] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Reem Fairchild If you're making that kind of money off of tech 1 ship production, you're spending a lot of time online, you have a lot of capital, and you have an army of skilled alts. However, I can easily make about 100 mil/day with just my one industrial alt (this one), with about .7 - 1 bil in capital going into it and with about 1 hour or so (usually less) of online time per day. I don't do it as much as I should though, cause my main character and pvp combat is more fun. :) If i actually used my manufacturing slots aswell, you could easily add another 100mill on top of that. This is solely trading and researching. Trading is another issue. But if you're making your money off of trading and not manufacturing, then what's the problem?
Andreask14 Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula Dragons Of Oceans	Posted - 2008.02.09 23:50:00 - [34] The market doesnt need steeper entry fees in time and money just because you want an easier time when investing your fortune. Average joe has the exact same right of playing the game for his entry fee that you have, why should older, and richer players be even more ahead of him ? Why would running missions need to become more risky? Your idea is that more people need to mine to earn their keepings and sell for even more rediculously low prices, or what ? Where do you think your customers come from, your closet? Some mechanism has to be the isk faucet, and in this game its mission running. Why introduce Jove? So you have more items you can undercut the next guy by 10% with? Or more items you want to sell for insanely inflated prices while only a handful of players is able to get a hold of them? In short, your proposals are short sighted and selfish. Go away.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:02:00 - [35] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Trading is another issue. But if you're making your money off of trading and not manufacturing, then what's the problem? I have no "huge" problem. The op was merely a brainstorm. There is a problem with the market. Its not broken, but there is a problem.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:09:00 - [36] Originally by: Andreask14 The market doesnt need steeper entry fees in time and money just because you want an easier time when investing your fortune. Average joe has the exact same right of playing the game for his entry fee that you have, why should older, and richer players be even more ahead of him ? Why would running missions need to become more risky? Your idea is that more people need to mine to earn their keepings and sell for even more rediculously low prices, or what ? Where do you think your customers come from, your closet? Some mechanism has to be the isk faucet, and in this game its mission running. Why introduce Jove? So you have more items you can undercut the next guy by 10% with? Or more items you want to sell for insanely inflated prices while only a handful of players is able to get a hold of them? In short, your proposals are short sighted and selfish. Go away. Well, lets see. First of all, you obviously didnt read my post in details. The barrier to entry part is damn clear. When eve first started, it was a totally other world. A battleship BPO was huge. Now, its nothing. But today we have nothing which compares to what a BS bpo was back then. As for the rich vs. poor, its the same as above. There no high-end goals, and its too simple for a person with no experience, little SP, and a small wallet, to compete with a 100bill dude. Or as another person stated it, Bill Gates going from door to door selling PC hardware. Its stupid. The mission running part is simple. Risk vs. reward. To introduce jove, to have a larger range of items to manufacturer. Spread competition, more markets. I have talked to several people about this very topic, and very few actually had any good arguments against what i said. In fact, quite a few saw my points, and agreed. But seriously. If you DO wanna argue against it. At least read the whole post, every single word, and connect a few dots yourself. Its damn obvious :(
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:13:00 - [37] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: LaVista Vista So because you dont have fun in the same way as i do, im not entitled to argue that the market has some flaws? "There's too much competition" is not a market flaw. I see all kinds of gaps in the market, entire constellations that are underserved, large swaths of territory where you have to travel 15 jumps to buy equipment. There's nobody selling to those people. Meanwhile you have 800 people in Jita trying to f*ck each other for .01 isk Do you not see anything wrong with the concept of trying to sell Ravens in Jita? You don't sound that stupid to me. Find out where the wars are. Supply the beligerents. Find underserved communities. Supply them. Find Empire/0.0 choke points where people fly in and lose ships. Stock them. Don't "sell" think of it as operating a weapons shop. Your job is to provide the community with toys, to save them the trouble of having to go to a hub. You can't just sell the ship. You have to sell everything that goes on the ship too. Thats why people go to hubs. They're not gonna buy an empty raven and fly to Jita to equip it. They'll fly to Jita in a shuttle, buy the Raven and all the equipment in one stop. You have to sell the launchers, the missiles, the shield hardeners, the cap relays if you want to sell the Raven. If people can get their whole setup in 1 stop, they will pay extra millions for not having to fly 15 jumps to buy a new ship. You're welcome. Now go play. I both agree and disagree. Yes, theres a market for selling "sets" in the outer regions of eve. Its an age old trick. Nothing new there. But read about the network effect. I mentioned it several times, and its the sole reason Jita exists.
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:18:00 - [38] I agree on the entry barriers, but with the massive amounts of people with 50m sp and 100b wallets, what high end goals do you propose where people cant easily access the market anymore? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars???
Biirk	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:19:00 - [39] Raise Seller prices by squeezing the Life's Loot out of the innocent common player? NO! And Its "TIP" you Freaking Republican Trickle Downer! "TIP" of the Iceberg! Get A Job! (g)
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:26:00 - [40] Originally by: Biirk Raise Seller prices by squeezing the Life's Loot out of the innocent common player? NO! And Its "TIP" you Freaking Republican Trickle Downer! "TIP" of the Iceberg! Get A Job! (g) Or simply leave all current markets as they are, and introduce new markets with a higher barrier to entry, just like T2 bpo's were. Also, i'm not exactly in need of a job. I spend 20 minutes max actually carebearing. The rest is either spend pvp'ing or studying.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:27:00 - [41] The "problem" is very simple: if you want to make isk by PvP and you aren't avery good you go broke (and you notice it) if you want to make isk doing missions and you are bad you go broke losing ships stupidly or you have a very hard time getting better ships and isk (and you notice it) if you want to make isk mining and you don't know how to sell them or how to refine you get less isk/hour but you don't go broke, you only need to do more work to get the same goal, but at least you do limited damage to other people (and generally people don't notice it) if you build things and sell them and you don't know how to price them, regularly underselling them, you still increase your isk, only at a lower pace. And you lower the general price of the item, damaging all sellers. (and again the seller don't notice that he is selling at less than he could get) So the only problem is that while mismanaging PvP or missionrunning has noticeable consequences, mismanaging mining or production only cost more work to the player doing that, but it has no dramatic effects as the first 2 activities.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:27:00 - [42] Originally by: Bryg Philomena I agree on the entry barriers, but with the massive amounts of people with 50m sp and 100b wallets, what high end goals do you propose where people cant easily access the market anymore? Honestly? I dont really have any ideas. But planets and ambulation springs to mind. Also, low-sec stations. Something with those. Nuff' said.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Venkul Mul The "problem" is very simple: if you want to make isk by PvP and you aren't avery good you go broke (and you notice it) if you want to make isk doing missions and you are bad you go broke losing ships stupidly or you have a very hard time getting better ships and isk (and you notice it) if you want to make isk mining and you don't know how to sell them or how to refine you get less isk/hour but you don't go broke, you only need to do more work to get the same goal, but at least you do limited damage to other people (and generally people don't notice it) if you build things and sell them and you don't know how to price them, regularly underselling them, you still increase your isk, only at a lower pace. And you lower the general price of the item, damaging all sellers. (and again the seller don't notice that he is selling at less than he could get) So the only problem is that while mismanaging PvP or missionrunning has noticeable consequences, mismanaging mining or production only cost more work to the player doing that, but it has no dramatic effects as the first 2 activities. Again, another excellent point. Again, the risk vs reward system isnt working as intended.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.10 01:14:00 - [44] Even if the economy crashes it will fix itself,this is the great thing about player driven markets. Easiest way to fix it is....Do nothing actually. This is what happens when a kestrel with thermal missiles declares war on earth
iudex Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.10 02:32:00 - [45] I have to agree with the OP on some points. People are telling here that everything is fine since it's a player driven economy, but it's not, as you can "print" isk out of nowhere here. Just some numbers: In my home system there are 24/7 100-200 people in local, doing lvl 4 missions. With the ships they usually use (you can see up to 5 navy ravens in front of the station at the same time) it's easy to make 10-20 mil per hour from bounties. So that are 24-94 bil each day generated only in that singel system. There are a lot of other missionrunner hubs, it's safe to say there are trillions of new isk going into the economy every day just from missionrunners and ratters. When you lose an insured ship you generate isk aswell etc. So you can't compare eve economy with rl economy, since you cant "generate" new cash in rl, unless you are illegaly printing counterfeit. That's why i agree on OPs proposal to "ò Increase the amount of consumables, ships, modules, boosters, implants, etc." Skills, trading fees, blueprints, lp stores and minor stuff are not enough to keep that huge isk increase in check. We only don't see a price increase on everything as the market is over-saturated for almost everything and some prices were lowered artificually (t2 item cartels -> invention, motherships -> tackelable (=lower demand) etc.). There should be additional options to spend a lot of isk, since more and more people are doing missions (my home system's local trippled in the course of last year). Some extremely expensive extra skillbooks, implants, npc corporation shares or whatever, stuff people can give a lot of isk for, and it MUST be from npcs, so that the isk gets lost and not just changes hands, like with player produced items. _______ My skills Faction standings: Gallente -9.35; Minmatar -8.01; Angel Cartel +5.91; Serpentis +6.63.
Moon Kitten GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.10 02:51:00 - [46] Quote: The problem is the blueprints. Back in the days, you were a legend if you have a battleship BPO. These days, everybody and their dog have a Raven BPO. I don't see why you would want to change this. An elastic market benefits everyone except the 'elite'. We've lulled our opponents into a false sense of confidence. Oh, yes. Everything is going according to plan. Those fools, they think they can win... by winning.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.02.10 02:55:00 - [47] Originally by: LaVista Vista and introduce new markets with a higher barrier to entry, just like T2 bpo's were. Now I understand this thread. I'm sorry your tech 2 bpo's aren't as profitable anymore since invention came. cries in sympathy
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.02.10 02:59:00 - [48] Originally by: Moon Kitten Quote: The problem is the blueprints. Back in the days, you were a legend if you have a battleship BPO. These days, everybody and their dog have a Raven BPO. I don't see why you would want to change this. An elastic market benefits everyone except the 'elite'. Obviously because he is the elite. In real life he would be the businessman running to the government asking them to set up tariffs and regulations to protect his business from compettion at everyone else's expense.
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.02.10 03:04:00 - [49] Sounds like the market is working perfect.. Makes a person think.. hmmmm which is more fun? PvP for 4 hrs and make little to no isk or mine and build for 4 hrs and make little to no isk.
Shin Dahn	Posted - 2008.02.10 03:27:00 - [50] Edited by: Shin Dahn on 10/02/2008 03:28:39 EveÆs population is reaching a sort of critical mass. The effect of the population growth has had a profound effect on deflation. In the RL world this differs. Greater population (assuming easy and dispensable income) creates increases in price. We can easily see that with the price of oil. There is only so much oil available: supply / demand dictate higher prices. That is a big difference about Eve. Eve has unlimited supply of resources to draw from. Roids regenerate and are plentiful, which was the original concept of the game. Plentiful minerals encouraged people to build and profit from building and for people to go out and mine. This allowed the game to grow. The current deflation will not end. The basic game mechanics insures a constant and easy supply of building material. The drone regions, macro-miners and an influx of people have increased the total resources in the bottle. Real world economics do not work that way at the base. And, the market has been deflating since the start of 2007. It was in the quarterly report. The game is flooded with ISK and minerals. Unlimited resources means constant deflation. More money makes that money less valuable over time. There is one (of many) possible solution to this. More ships have to be destroyed at a faster rate; in particular in Empire. Creating an arena system in Empire would help. Those in empire that would use an arena are the ones living in empire now -which is most of Eve. If 70% of your population produces items that are staying in game (lack of pvp) then find away for those items to exit. (aside from that, there are intelligent ways to create an arena and NOT make it WOW). Just a suggestion. Many other possibilities and I am no expert.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.02.10 03:34:00 - [51] Originally by: Shin Dahn And, the market has been deflating since the start of 2007. It was in the quarterly report. The game is flooded with ISK and minerals. Unlimited resources means constant deflation. More money makes that money less valuable over time. You fail at basic economics. If there is deflation it means ISK is worth more, not less. If there was too much ISK there would be inflation, not deflation.
Savesti Kyrsst Minmatar White-Noise	Posted - 2008.02.10 04:11:00 - [52] data plaque will eat us all we need our johnny appleseed
Aindrias Amarr Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.02.10 07:26:00 - [53] The reason why minerals/ice appear "free" is because there is an unlimited supply of them. Whether you get the from rat loot or belts, minerals are constantly created. This is sorta a "reverse inflation" from your RL economy. There's more ISK now than ever because it comes from "no where" either mishing or ratting (no, the ISK sinks, don't cover it). This, coupled with unlimited supply, equals prices dropping even though there's more "rich" people. People will remain "rich" longer because the stuff they buy is cheap. Further, since Eve is based off "slave labor" (alts) there's no more need to "pay" anyone to do work and often you're paying your corp to pay the Alliance you're in for access to POS's and 0.0 space. Ya
Stormaar Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.10 07:39:00 - [54] Edited by: Stormaar on 10/02/2008 07:40:23 ... Jita Let me pay for delivery when im buying some crap... im too lazy for fly more than 3-4 jamps. Wanna better service. 1 jump of delivery = 50k as example. ----- Customizable UI / internal API for mods/addons
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.10 08:26:00 - [55] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: LaVista Vista and introduce new markets with a higher barrier to entry, just like T2 bpo's were. Now I understand this thread. I'm sorry your tech 2 bpo's aren't as profitable anymore since invention came. cries in sympathy Let me see. I never had a T2 BPO. I joined eve after the whole lottery, and i got my first battleship BPO last year. So how in hell would i have, or had, a T2 BPO? The T2 lottery WAS a failure. It was broken from the start. But it had an extremely high barrier to entry, which is good. Yet the way you got hold of it was extremely poorly planned out.
Jim Nakamura Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.02.10 08:37:00 - [56] As anyone with an economics background will tell you, low barriers to entry are an essential component of a free market. If you rig the market to discourage new entrants, then the existing members can control prices. This is not good. You need to understand how business cycles work. So what if there's a glut of new players, all trying to undercut each other and driving the prices down? You're only looking at it from one side of the thing. There's more than one way of making money in EVE, and if downwards pressure on prices continues, then people will start deserting the markets and going off to pursue more time-profitable pursuits like ratting and mission running. Bingo, supply starts to dwindle and prices creep back up again. In fact, it's absolutely necessary for this to work that there should be as few barriers to entry as possible, otherwise the market is insulated from what's going on outside of it. EVE already has a few constants; the income you can make from missions and bounties, NPC vendors for essential items, and the insurance price of big assets. As someone already mentioned, nobody will ever sell ships for below the insurance value, and the NPC vendors are there to prevent people trying to corner the market on essentials. So what you're basically left with is mission/ratting income, and it's that more than anything which determines whether people are going to trade or do something else.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.10 08:50:00 - [57] Originally by: Jim Nakamura As anyone with an economics background will tell you, low barriers to entry are an essential component of a free market. If you rig the market to discourage new entrants, then the existing members can control prices. This is not good. You need to understand how business cycles work. So what if there's a glut of new players, all trying to undercut each other and driving the prices down? You're only looking at it from one side of the thing. There's more than one way of making money in EVE, and if downwards pressure on prices continues, then people will start deserting the markets and going off to pursue more time-profitable pursuits like ratting and mission running. Bingo, supply starts to dwindle and prices creep back up again. In fact, it's absolutely necessary for this to work that there should be as few barriers to entry as possible, otherwise the market is insulated from what's going on outside of it. EVE already has a few constants; the income you can make from missions and bounties, NPC vendors for essential items, and the insurance price of big assets. As someone already mentioned, nobody will ever sell ships for below the insurance value, and the NPC vendors are there to prevent people trying to corner the market on essentials. So what you're basically left with is mission/ratting income, and it's that more than anything which determines whether people are going to trade or do something else. Well, i hear what you are saying. But i still think it doesn't quite apply to eve. First of all, we have little high-end content. It would be a real life world without innovation and new products. We all produce the same items, thats the problem. Its like having random-Joe producing Windows, at the same time as Bill Gates does. Or as another person described it, Bill Gates going from door to door to sell random hardware. Dont get me wrong, a free market is good. But when everybody produces the same raven, the same cap booster and the same WCS, well. Whats the point? It would be cool if you could add enhancers to your production line, so you could buy ships with bonuses, so theres more variation in the market, and not everybody produce the same raven. Also, more high-end content to offload the large wealth of eve there is now. There's too much isk in the hands of players.
Aindrias Amarr Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.02.10 08:57:00 - [58] Originally by: Jim Nakamura As anyone with an economics background will tell you, low barriers to entry are an essential component of a free market. If you rig the market to discourage new entrants, then the existing members can control prices. This is not good. You need to understand how business cycles work. So what if there's a glut of new players, all trying to undercut each other and driving the prices down? You're only looking at it from one side of the thing. There's more than one way of making money in EVE, and if downwards pressure on prices continues, then people will start deserting the markets and going off to pursue more time-profitable pursuits like ratting and mission running. Bingo, supply starts to dwindle and prices creep back up again. In fact, it's absolutely necessary for this to work that there should be as few barriers to entry as possible, otherwise the market is insulated from what's going on outside of it. EVE already has a few constants; the income you can make from missions and bounties, NPC vendors for essential items, and the insurance price of big assets. As someone already mentioned, nobody will ever sell ships for below the insurance value, and the NPC vendors are there to prevent people trying to corner the market on essentials. So what you're basically left with is mission/ratting income, and it's that more than anything which determines whether people are going to trade or do something else. Unfortunetly your parallel doesn't work for Eve. There are MANY MANY factors stopping Average Joe from entering the "business owning world" in RL. There's nothing stopping the average Eve player from entering the market. Alls it is "training time" and minimal ISK investment which can be easily gotten by Mishing/ratting. When everyone appears to use these unlimited resources to enter a Open-Door market.. you will have issues with the Base of the Economy, which is material cost.
Slazia Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.02.10 08:58:00 - [59] Why not remove NPC vendors? We dont need them any more as we can produce everything we need. Allow people (new players) to corner markets such as T1 ammo, inertia stabs etc. Where are the blueprints for implants and the ability for players to create new BPOs?
Richard Third	Posted - 2008.02.10 09:59:00 - [60] Originally by: LaVista Vista The problem is the blueprints. Back in the days, you were a legend if you have a battleship BPO. These days, everybody and their dog have a Raven BPO. If your Raven BPO doesn't have any value, you can just give it to me for free. I promise I will accept your charity.

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