EVE Search - Logistics are imbalanced

All Channels

Test Server Feedback

Logistics are imbalanced

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 [2] :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:16:00 - [31] Another EFT Warrior? The ships are fine. Why does everyone cry about how every ship isn't identical?! ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:37:00 - [32] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 15/02/2008 18:45:02 Originally by: Goumindong With a scimitar and logistics 5, you can perma run 3 large shield reps, a mwd, sensor booster, ECCM while nanoing the ship fast enough to avoid most damage. You can do the same on an Oneiros, but go a bit slower. You cant on a guardian or basilisk. You must circle-tank the guardian or basilisk to be valuable and you do not for a Scimitar or Oneiros. The basilisk cannot tank well and use ECCM/Sensor boosters making their circle vulnerable to high DPS and neuts. The guardian cannot use either one of ECCM or sensor boosters. Making them vulnerable to Ewar and neuts They all have their advantages and disadvantages, but yes, if you only fly in situations where the disadvantages are minimized and the advantages extended then you wont have a problem. this is so wrong. lets do the numbers for nanoed oneiros and guardian oneiros 4x large solace y-t8 mwd, prototype ECCM, 3x cap recharger II 2x overdive II, 2x nanofiber II remote repair aug 2x 2870 mps, 39 sensor str. effective hp 10k, not cap stable with mwd and all reppers on (1 min 14s), cap stable with 2 reppers and mwd on... but if you would fit tracking links this gets even worse guardian 5 large solace 1 large energy transfer array II y-t8 mwd, prototype ECCM radar 3x overdrive II, 2x nanofiber II rigs: ACR I, remote rep aug I 3500 mps, 37 sensor str., 10,5k effective hp in case there are 2 guardians, they can with large energy transfer keep there mwd & all 5 reppers running permantly if they are within 83 km of each other. in case there are 2 oneiros they can do nothing of the above and they still repair less. guardians are better in every way... the only use of oneiros is tracking links for mission runners & snipers... yay... gallente got the bonus here. i know which i would choose from these both. lets see, gallente command ship bonus = crap, gallente logistics = worse than all other logistics, gallente recons (damper) = crap, gallente close range dps is now obsolete too because everybody and his mother can fill this role with the new raven now in a better way, drones are nerfed to hell and back, ppl whine about ecm drones - will be nerfed soon too... whats left? snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:39:00 - [33] Originally by: PCaBoo Another EFT Warrior? The ships are fine. Why does everyone cry about how every ship isn't identical?! if you would have bothered to read the whole thread you would have stumbled upon my statement, that i dont want all ships to be the same... (but what can you exspect from a smash^^) snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:56:00 - [34] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/02/2008 19:00:46 Originally by: Frances Ducoir blah blah blah blah Protip: Large Cap battery Another Protip: The Oneiros doesn't need a second Oneiros to fly with it in order to be effective A third Protip: Remote Repair Augs are not as valuable as CCC's/SMC's are not as valuable as CPR's. Trade the nano's for CPRs and the Repair Augs for polycarbons. Question: What do tracking links have to do with this? Quote: in case there are 2 guardians, they can with large energy transfer keep there mwd & all 5 reppers running permantly if they are within 83 km of each other. No, they cannot. See if you can figure out why.
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.15 20:12:00 - [35] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 15/02/2008 20:13:37 Originally by: Goumindong Protip: Large Cap battery which fit very well on our nanoed oneiros with 4 large solace + mwd... would have to drop another remote rep... well... this makes the oneiros even more crap Originally by: Goumindong Another Protip: The Oneiros doesn't need a second Oneiros to fly with it in order to be effective yes because they dont gain anything from each other... a guardian is solo still better than any oneiros at logistics V... it repairs more and can do all the same like the oneiros. Originally by: Goumindong A third Protip: Remote Repair Augs are not as valuable as CCC's/SMC's are not as valuable as CPR's. Trade the nano's for CPRs and the Repair Augs for polycarbons. done for the oneiros. we get: 3300 mps, while still not beeing able to let all 4 repairs and mwd run permanently (but at least 3 - wohoo ^^). fit some tracking links and your oneiros will fail misserably at running repairers and mwd. some points for you: logistics can: a) remote repair/shield boost b) transfer energy remotely c) use tracking links now which bonus is the one which is the main purpose of those ships? seems like a)... fine so lets continue. which of the 3 bonus above is useful for remote repairing: energy transfer or tracking links? you will figure out which one, i'am sure. this leaves us with 2 ships which do a better job then the other 2. while the scimitar still fills a niche in offensive nano gangs, the oneiros fails at everything. the oneiros cant do anything which the other logistics couldnt do better. another problem is the huge gap between logistics skill lvl IV and V. while the oneiros is a bit more cap stable (because it just can use 4 repairers) at logistics IV, the guardian is superiour in every way at logistics V. if you calculate in the use of energy transfer arrays and the use of multiple guardians / oneiros simultanely its getting even worse for the oneiros. Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Frances Ducoir in case there are 2 guardians, they can with large energy transfer keep there mwd & all 5 reppers running permantly if they are within 83 km of each other. No, they cannot. See if you can figure out why. care to elaborate? the fitting given above would need 66 cap/s and generate 14 cap/s. a large energy transfer array will give each guardian 57 cap/s which makes them easily cope the 66 cap/s needs. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.15 20:44:00 - [36] someone isn't a logistics pilot.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.15 22:46:00 - [37] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/02/2008 22:46:26 Originally by: Frances Ducoir yes because they dont gain anything from each other... a guardian is solo still better than any oneiros at logistics V... it repairs more and can do all the same like the oneiros. No, it cannot. It has the same cap regen profile and is missing two med/low slots. None of them can use more than 4 LRARs without friendly boosting[Oneiros due to fitting, Guardian due to cap] while fitting any kind of defense. But the Oneiros can keep itself alive better while boosting friendlies. Quote: done for the oneiros. we get: 3300 mps, while still not beeing able to let all 4 repairs and mwd run permanently (but at least 3 - wohoo ^^). fit some tracking links and your oneiros will fail misserably at running repairers and mwd. What in the world do tracking links have to do with remote repairing? The Oneiros is better when alone because the two extra med/low slots allow the ship to produce a better repair job while still defending itself from both DPS and electronic warfare when alone. The Guardian is better with another because the extra high slots and bonus allow it to circle-jerk cap and armor, letting it fit other modules in its med/low slots. Quote: care to elaborate? the fitting given above would need 66 cap/s and generate 14 cap/s. a large energy transfer array will give each guardian 57 cap/s which makes them easily cope the 66 cap/s needs. If you don't know why it isn't possible I am not going to help you on this one until you get into said ship and try it out. But ill give you a hint. EFT will show you why you cannot do what you claimed.
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.16 04:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 15/02/2008 22:46:26 Originally by: Frances Ducoir yes because they dont gain anything from each other... a guardian is solo still better than any oneiros at logistics V... it repairs more and can do all the same like the oneiros. No, it cannot. It has the same cap regen profile and is missing two med/low slots. None of them can use more than 4 LRARs without friendly boosting[Oneiros due to fitting, Guardian due to cap] while fitting any kind of defense. But the Oneiros can keep itself alive better while boosting friendlies. Quote: done for the oneiros. we get: 3300 mps, while still not beeing able to let all 4 repairs and mwd run permanently (but at least 3 - wohoo ^^). fit some tracking links and your oneiros will fail misserably at running repairers and mwd. What in the world do tracking links have to do with remote repairing? The Oneiros is better when alone because the two extra med/low slots allow the ship to produce a better repair job while still defending itself from both DPS and electronic warfare when alone. The Guardian is better with another because the extra high slots and bonus allow it to circle-jerk cap and armor, letting it fit other modules in its med/low slots. Quote: care to elaborate? the fitting given above would need 66 cap/s and generate 14 cap/s. a large energy transfer array will give each guardian 57 cap/s which makes them easily cope the 66 cap/s needs. If you don't know why it isn't possible I am not going to help you on this one until you get into said ship and try it out. But ill give you a hint. EFT will show you why you cannot do what you claimed. dude you are talking big sh.. guardian can very well keep more than 4 repairers running without external cap injection. at logistics V it will be able to run 5 large solace and 1 med solace and has 4 spare lowslots for tank. how do you come up with your strange asumptions? what do tracking links have to do with this? a lot.2 guardians gain a lot from their secondary bonus (energy transfer), while 2 oneiros dont gain anything at all from its secondary bonus (tracking links). this makes the guardian superiour in the primary role as remote repairer. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.16 04:41:00 - [39] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 16/02/2008 04:41:28 Originally by: MotherMoon someone isn't a logistics pilot. thank you for your worthful input... snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.16 05:22:00 - [40] They are all different. If you dont like your race maybe its time to crosstrain? -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Sorien Marutor The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.02.16 05:54:00 - [41] Well this thread shows exactly 2 things: Number 1: Everybody is afrait of CCPs nerfbat. Every ship 'to be changed' is getting nerfs till its useless for some months. To "raid" threads like this probably seems to be the best defence. As we all know CCP they wouldn't boost the Oneiros, they would instead nerf all 3 working logistics Number 2: There IS a disadvantage for gallente logistics since the changes for remote repair range. The intended role for the gallente one was to have a higher range then the amarr version. Now that they have all the same range the Oneiros and Scimitar lost one of its major advantages. The Oneiros is the worst logistic of all - because of the still existing nano-role of the Scimitar. But i have to say CCP is very consequent with its balancing. They've put the Oneiros InLine with the other Gallente ships Eris, Hyperion, Lachesis, Arazu, Eos and Deimos(soontm).
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.16 07:34:00 - [42] Edited by: Goumindong on 16/02/2008 07:34:14 Originally by: Frances Ducoir guardian can very well keep more than 4 repairers running without external cap injection. at logistics V it will be able to run 5 large solace and 1 med solace and has 4 spare lowslots for tank. how do you come up with your strange asumptions? Well to start with, i used a propulsion mod, because otherwise you might as well just right click self destruct. Though to be honest, you will probably explode long before your two minutes are up. Then, i used some ECCM/Sensor booster because its nice to not be made obsolete by an single ewar ship. Then i took a look at the cap use per module and then looked at the cap profile of the ship and realized that the peak regen is too thin to run 5 LRARs without capping out, or having a 1 slot tank. Then i decided "wow, thats really freaking stupid to do that" and told you about it. Quote: what do tracking links have to do with this? a lot.2 guardians gain a lot from their secondary bonus (energy transfer), while 2 oneiros dont gain anything at all from its secondary bonus (tracking links). Unless you are setting up a ship for tracking linking... But really, the secondary bonus of the guardian is useless when there is only one logistics there. And the secondary bonus of the Oneiros is less usefull if there is two logistics there. Wow, the ships are different. Quote: Blah blah blah blah 2 guardians Holy lord, we get the point you have a friend in a guardian who follows you around every time you log on. Not everyone has a friend in a guardian who follows them around every time they log on. For those who dont, an Oneiros will be a better option. Yes, we know two guardians can circle-jerk to great power. Yes, we know two guardians are better than Quote: its the same like the eos... all the other command ships are way better in their gang boosting role. There is nothing wrong with the Eos. It does a lot of damage, tanks, tackles, and runs gang mods. Its not the fleet sniper like the vulture is, its not the useless but a pain to kill like the damnation is, and its not speedy but cant tackle without being paper thin like the claymore is. Its fine. If you say anything about the ewar gang links then, i suggest you go fight someone whose ewar is 200-250km away from your fleet so that only your Rokhs can hit them[while they are all jammed] Look, if you dont believe me, look at this: Here is a Guardian running 3 LRARs just barely [Guardian, New Setup 1] Capacitor Power Relay II [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] 10MN Afterburner II Large Capacitor Battery II Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Light Armor Maintenance Bot II x5 It has 3 useless high slots since it cant run them, 4 slots of tank, no ECCM and no Sensor booster. Here is an Oneiros running 3 LRARs. It has 4 slots of tank, ECCM, a sensor booster, and actually repairs more than the Guardian because its drone bay is twice as large Change to an MWD and you get the same thing, except they both need another slot of cap. [Oneiros, New Setup 1] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] 10MN Afterburner II Large Capacitor Battery II Prototype ECCM I Magnetometric Sensor Cluster Sensor Booster II, Targeting Speed Cap Recharger II Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x5 P.S. I am tired of this game. The reason you cannot circlejerk to 83km is because 1. The Guardian cannot lock to 83km. 2. The Max range on a best named large armor transfers is 71km 3. The Max range on an best named large energy trasnfer is 76km
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.17 02:08:00 - [43] i dont know about what we are arguing here, these 2 ships are so much imbalanced, it should be obvious for everybody. fit some remote repair augmentors, set all skills to V and try again ^^ you simply neglect the fact that logistics V is NEEDED for a logistics pilot to use his ship really effectivly. at logistics V the guardian is superiour in every way: examples: guardian + oneiros both fitted for solo use and max repair. guardian repairs more, has a bit less hp, clear winner guardian fitted for gang use with one other guardian note: the large energy transfer array II generates + 56,5 cap for both guardians, thatswhy they are capstable if they are within range of each other (83km). guardian in this configuration can still repair more than oneiros and has a way better tank and one spare midslot (sensor booster fitted here). guardian = winner. guardian and oneiros nanoed... both fitted as the only logistic ship in the gang as you can see guardian can only run 4 large repairers capstable, has a bit (300mps) less speed but 2 spare highslots. both ships can be nanoed equally good, although this doesnt make much sense because most offensive nano gangs are shield tanks and will use the scimitar^^ oneiros and guardian nanoed, guardian in team with another one the large enery transfer array creates enough cap for the guardians to fit this spectacular setup. i think i dont need to say anything more to this ^^ all in all we have a clear winner: the guardian is solo & nanoed as good as the oneiros, in teams way better. it is fitted for max rep and fitted for team rep better. the oneiros has no single niche at which it does something better than the other logistics. another useless ship. (btw eos is imbalanced because it has a useless bonus to ew ganglinks, which noone uses, all other gang links are way better and benefit the gang boosting command ships themselves). snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.17 02:17:00 - [44] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2008 02:25:41 Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2008 02:19:29 Notice how all of your assumptions rely on having two logistics and one of them being a guardian? Notice how the two guardians rely on not being jammed or dampened or the circle fails before they can relock? And the one that doesnt require two guardians has the Oneiros as better than the Guardian... edit: Solo use has a propulsion module, ECCM, and sensor booster. The guardian does not have this. The Oneiros can. Without the ECCM and sensor booster its just waiting to be made irrelevent with some ewar.
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.17 02:31:00 - [45] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 17/02/2008 02:32:06 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2008 02:19:29 Notice how all of your assumptions rely on having two logistics and one of them being a guardian? 2 examples for solo use, 2 for gang use Originally by: Goumindong And the one that doesnt require two guardians has the Oneiros as better than the Guardian... the guardian is able to repair way more capstable than the oneiros. i wouldnt say that the oneiros is better then ^^ Originally by: Goumindong edit: Solo use has a propulsion module, ECCM, and sensor booster. The guardian does not have this. The Oneiros can. Without the ECCM and sensor booster its just waiting to be made irrelevent with some ewar. you could only fit ABs, what do you want with an ab? if an mwding ship closes in, you are in problems with & without ab. the oneiros for solo use couldnt even fit a 10mn ab because of powergrid issues, you would have to drop another large solace for a med solace. you were able to see that all setups had ECCM fitted? you can add the sensor booster to all setups by droping one cap recharger II and remove a lowslot (tank) module for a CPR II. this would weaken the tanks of both ships and applies to both ships equaly. exception: nano setups. but thats irrelavant because RSD arent usefull anymore except for fleet fights. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.08 11:48:00 - [46] alliance tournament: Logistics Cruisers fielded: 87 Total. Scimitar:1 Guardian: 41 Onieros: 7 Basilisk: 38 snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.08 18:47:00 - [47] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/03/2008 18:55:54 Because in the alliance tournament you get a very structured enviornment to work with that is quite dissimilar to real pvp. edit: and you think info war and the Eos are weak? Are you kidding me?
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.08 19:09:00 - [48] Don't be silly. If you just compared one aspect of a ship with another, then of course you'll see differences. In day-to-day typical PvP though, I'd say one oneiros is considerably more effective than one guardian. Yes, it repairs less, but you can do all kinds of things with those med slots that you can't with a guardian. For example, in the OP's two logistics ship setups, you can clearly see that neither ship would ever have a chance to repair in a standard pvp situation. In a more pvp-oriented fitting, the oneiros has a distinct advantage (although with the script changes, I'd have to agree that tracking link bonuses are worthless).

Pages: 1 [2] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.