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Logistics are imbalanced

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Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:12:00 - [1] Amarr and Caldari Logistics are superiour to Gallente and Matar ones. Example Oneiros: high: 4x large solace remote rep med: prototype ECCM magnetometric sensor cluster 4x cap recharger II lows: 800mm rolled tungsten armor explo. hardener II EANM II beta reactor control CAP power relay Guardian: highs: 5x large solace remote rep 1x medium solace remote rep meds: 2x cap recharger II lows: 800mm rolled tungsten 2x EANM II 2x beta reactor control cap power relay both ships use 2 remote repair augmentor I rigs oneiros repairs: 1536/5sec + 240/5sec (5med armor rep drones t1) = 1776/5sec @ 71 km distance guardian repairs: 2112/5sec + 120/5sec (5 small armor rep drones t1) = 2232/5sec @ 71 km distance caldari & matar are similar, with matar beeing worse then the caldari logistic cruiser. before the logistics boost, the oneiros and scimitar compensated their lack in repair / shield boost amount through better range but now all 4 logistics have the same range... Solution: nerf repair range of guardian and basilisk OR boost repair amount of oneiros & scimitar. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:20:00 - [2] Okay, if you're going to compare the ships, do it smartly. 1. Drones can't operate at 71km without a Drone Link Augmentor, so remove them from your repping figure at 71km. 2. Medium remote reppers can't operate at 71km, so remove them from your repping figure at 71km. Also, are both of those setups equally cap stable? (i.e. can they both for the same amount of time) Try those setups and come back. I have no idea if they'll be more balanced or not, but they'll be a better basis for comparison. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:27:00 - [3] you may be right... there are some mistakes... guardian setup needs more skills to be cap stable than the oneiros setup... but with all skills V they are both cap stable. if leaving drones out of comparision we get: Guardian: 1920/5sec @71km + 190/5sec @51 km Oneiros: 1536/5sec @71 km doesnt change the fact that oneiros is still worse... the only advantage i can see is, that oneiros can fit an ECCM... but tbh does this justify 37% less repair amount? i think ccp just forgot to apply the right range bonus for basilisk and guardian and gave 150% to range to every logistics. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:35:00 - [4] I think the issue here is slot layout and role bonuses. The Oneiros and the Scimitar get bonuses to tracking links, both of which are mid-slot modules. As a result, they have fewer high-slots than the Guardian or the Basilisk so they can't fit as many repper modules. If you fit them in a balanced manner (i.e. reppers and energy transfers/tracking links), they should become much more balanced, but if you fit them for max repping, the Guardian and Basilisk will always win. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:45:00 - [5] you are right... didnt think of the energy transfers. but who fits them anyway? i never saw a logistics fitting energy transfer arrays. i once bought a corpum x-type med energy transfer array for 10m (just for collecting^^) snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Frances Ducoir you are right... didnt think of the energy transfers. but who fits them anyway? Smart logistics pilots. If they fit a large energy transfer array and have a corpmate also fit one, and they transfer cap to each other, the Logistics ship gets free cap out of the deal due to it's bonuses. This works really well for complexes where you need longer term repping, but is probably less useful for PvP where burst repping is more important. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.11 21:57:00 - [7] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 11/02/2008 22:05:38 learned something new today ^^ i still think the basilisk and guardian are superiour to the other logistics. if you train logistics to V you dont need the energy transfer arrays. you will be cap stable with much less cap rechargers and cap power relays than with logistics at IV. i'am going for amarr cruiser V anyway so i could care less... but still. edit followed your advice and tried guardian with med energy transfer array instead of med remote armor repairer: incase there are 2 guardians the med energy transfer array would add +15 cap/s to both ships each other. this means a guardian needs only ONE cap recharger II to be capstable and could use all 5 lowslots for tanking... while still repairing 1920 / 5sec this is even more imbalanced 2 oneiros doing this would repair 1152 and can use insane amounts of tracking links which are stacking nerfed... wohooo (logistcs V required for this example) snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2008.02.11 22:14:00 - [8] The Scimitar complements a nanogang very well.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.02.11 23:13:00 - [9] Basilisk can just about get cap stable on 6 large reps. But that's basically an 'all cap' fit, rigs and all. And logistics 5 needed. At logistics 4, both Guardian and Basilisk can do a cap transferring 'buddy' fit, with 2 large energy transfers, and 4 large reps. It's this that makes them superior to the Onerios and the Scimitar. However, the Scimitar _can_ do a viable nanofit, where the Basilisk and Guardian.... well can't. No, the real problem with Logistics cruisers, is the HUGE difference in cap use between logistics 4, and logistics 5. The difference between 40% cap usage and 25% cap usage is ... considerable. So underpowered at Logistics 4, and really really good at Logistics 5. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.02.11 23:40:00 - [10] I think its more a question of how usable tracking links are than how many large reps/transfers you can stuff on the ship... if more reppage is always > even a single tracking link in all situations, then something has to change. Originally by: Meridius Dex I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability

Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.12 01:38:00 - [11] Originally by: Frances Ducoir you are right... didnt think of the energy transfers. but who fits them anyway? When we shoot pos we often use Basilisks who spider-captransfer and spidertank. You can use setups that are not capstable, because you generate cap via captransfers. Same goes for guardians. They can transfer a whole lot of cap, one guardian can supply a couple of other guardians with cap. When you do it right, you only need a couple of basilisks and a couple of guardians, the other two logistics are completely obsolete. You do not need them, at all.
El Mauru Amarr Nexus Analytics Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.12 04:53:00 - [12] I could think of quite a number of situations where the tracking links are kinda invaluable- Try pairing an Oneiros with a sniper on SISI with various setups. You`ll be amazed at how quickly you can shoot fighters, & nanos + support out of the sky. In small, defensive gangs (I know, kind of a niche these days) I`d choose an Oneiros over a Guardian any day- Same for a Scimitar over a basilisk in fast, offensive gangs. -
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.02.12 13:12:00 - [13] Just because you can't see an advantage with tracking links, doesn't mean they are useless or that the guardian/basalisk are overpowered. Just means you havn't found the strength of tracking links. To be honest, neither have I, but I wouldn't go as far as saying the guardian is overpowered. It is just good at it's job, as I'm certain the Scimitar is.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.02.12 13:32:00 - [14] I think the issue is that half of them can't play in a spider cap transfer system... TRacking links are useful, but not the same way as energy transfer. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.12 23:54:00 - [15] I dunno, the Ony and Scimitar are better for generic PVP IMO. -Liang -- If it appears that my typing is lazy, I apologize. My hands/wrists hurt. Update: I bought a Datahand for RSI, and I now suck at typing (so I don't post as much)
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.13 04:45:00 - [16] Just a thought on this also, but you're comparing remote reps or armor vs. shield. Armor has no regeneration, while shields do. If they were the same rate of repair, and you added in the regenerative shield repping of the tgt ship as well, wouldn't that make shield reps more powerful than armor? It seems to me that each of them have unique bonuses that make each of them better in certain circumstances, i.e. PvP w/shield reppers, PvP w/armor reppers, and then PvE w/shield and armor. I think each of the ships cover their respective races well, but the Caldari and Minmitar ships have the added bonus to tracking links.
Siltan	Posted - 2008.02.13 10:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Frances Ducoir Amarr and Caldari Logistics are superiour to Gallente and Matar ones. Example Solution: nerf repair range of guardian and basilisk OR boost repair amount of oneiros & scimitar. Niether of these would work, boosting the repair amount would make a less skilled pilot better off in a 4 hi slot ship, as they would need les cap recharge to keep up the same / better repping. Range nerfing wouldnt have a significant effect in most situations as you usually only need around 20-30km range anyway. The only real way to balance it would be to take a mid slot + low slot (or 2 low slots) and shift them to the high slots. And probably change all the ship bonuses to be the same as well, energy transfers for all. The extra mid slots have other purposes on the logistics, such as mounting remote ECCM, they are pretty much different ships for diffrent situations and shine in each of thier own ways, its just a shame they have the racial requirement of cruiser level 5 for each of em. If im on my own I prefer the galantee ship, if theres 2 logistics I prefer the guardian.
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.13 11:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Siltan Originally by: Frances Ducoir Amarr and Caldari Logistics are superiour to Gallente and Matar ones. Example Solution: nerf repair range of guardian and basilisk OR boost repair amount of oneiros & scimitar. Niether of these would work, boosting the repair amount would make a less skilled pilot better off in a 4 hi slot ship, as they would need les cap recharge to keep up the same / better repping. Range nerfing wouldnt have a significant effect in most situations as you usually only need around 20-30km range anyway. The only real way to balance it would be to take a mid slot + low slot (or 2 low slots) and shift them to the high slots. And probably change all the ship bonuses to be the same as well, energy transfers for all. The extra mid slots have other purposes on the logistics, such as mounting remote ECCM, they are pretty much different ships for diffrent situations and shine in each of thier own ways, its just a shame they have the racial requirement of cruiser level 5 for each of em. If im on my own I prefer the galantee ship, if theres 2 logistics I prefer the guardian. i'am against the unification of all ships, every ship should have a certain niche. i could imagine something like make gallente logistic the one which has the highest repair, but lowest range through drones. (disadvanteges would be you cant switch your target fast). amarr and caldari should stay like they are. i cant judge the minmatar logistics atm, it seems to be good for offensive gangs. maybe it could use another slot to compare with other logistics. as it stands now, guardian and basilisk are used for spider repairing, while the other logistics are next to useless. as said before, tracking links are barely used... it just doesnt pay off fitting those. the odd thing is, that even with energy transfers fitted (and thus higher cap recharge when spider reping), the guardian and basilisk still can repair more than oneiros and the matar logistic. this seems out of balance. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Siltan	Posted - 2008.02.13 12:47:00 - [19] Edited by: Siltan on 13/02/2008 12:50:50 Its awkward, you cant really add slots without causing more imbalance. Perhaps an adjustment of secondary bonus (tracking links) to something more useful such as a remote ECCM bonus. Or maybe a new module that allows you to remote increase damage of other ships, or maybe to repair heat damage remotely (which I would actully like to see on all logistics). Another alternative might be to increase the minmtar drone bay to 50m3 as well and give a slighty larger drone bonus to those 2 ships. Just a straight boost to the tracking link effciency would help, as they are currently not especially effective. You might also want to consider that the guardian and basilisk get an role bonus for fitting the energy transfers, the galantee and minmatar dont, they dont actully need a fitting bonus but it does make them a bonus short.
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.13 19:59:00 - [20] that are some nice ideas siltan snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:03:00 - [21] Oneiroses and Scimitars are fine. They work better when there are no other logistics around since they just plain have more slots with which to boost cap so they can keep repairing. Guardians and Basilisks do not. With other logistics in gang they have more slots with which to fill up with ECM and sensor boosters to make them less vulnerable to ewar. When other logistics are in gang they need to be the same type in order to benefit each other. Scimitars and Oneiroses can more easily tank either shield or armor to get around this while Basilisks and Guardians cannot. In return, Guardians and Basilisks have enhanced circle jerking ability via remote cap transfers. Frankly i would say that the Oneiros and Scimitar are a little bit more powerful in every day general use than the Guardian and Basilisk.
Felix Dzerzhinsky legion of qui Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:10:00 - [22] Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 13/02/2008 21:11:36 I agree with Guomingdung (yet again), The reprisentative races in tanking, Amarr for armor and Caldari for shields should get the most out of a direct armor or shield transfer - this is what their races specilize in. The tracking link and targeting links have their uses, and you should use them in correlation with larger ships (tracking) or in gate camps on HICs (targeting) - these are forms of logistics too. Also the Gallente and Minmatar can be fitted quite well for small gang pvp with massive speed amd decent tanks - the Guardian and Basalisk cannot be nano fitted well and don't perform well in small gangs unless yyou have multiple guardians or basalisks. Combat flexibility vs. specilization - I see it as being quite fair. I rarely see Guardians and Basalisks outside of fleet (POS repping, and sitting is SS repping battleships that have warped out damaged) or in missions. In roaming pvp gangs I have seen a lot more Oneiros'. Are they ibalanced? For pure repping ammount - yes. But they make up for it in speed, usability and practice.
Fuazzole	Posted - 2008.02.13 22:22:00 - [23] Edited by: Fuazzole on 13/02/2008 22:24:49 You have it the wrong way round imo, it's the Oneiros and Scimitar that are the good ones as almost all of a logistix life is in PvP. Scimitar + Oneiros can pull of great speed tanks, making them the only 2 logistix viable in smaller scale PvP. You wont use/need more then 3 LARGE remote's so high slots not an issue The only PvE use for logistix is for lvl 5 missions and POS repping, were the plenty high slots of the Gaudrian and Basalisk shine.
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.14 01:19:00 - [24] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 14/02/2008 01:20:21 Originally by: Goumindong ... i would like to see the numbers you base your asumptions on. at logistics V 2 guardians are supperior in every way over 2 oneiros, even in a nano gang because they can "generate cap" for each other and thus do not need to fill their medslot and lows with cap modules. 1 cap power relay is enough. tracking links are stacking nerfed to hell and back, they are, in comparision to the energy transfer a very weak bonus. so we are at the point that oneiros repairs less and has a less useful bonus to tracking links. btw last time i counted oneiros and guardians slots, they both had 13. difference is, that oneiros has far more meds, what makes oneiros more cap stable if you have logistics IV only. but because of the huge gap between logistics IV and V there is a large imbalance at the skill level V... you dont need the slots of the oneiros anymore to make the ship cap stable. it doesnt matter how you spin it, guardian comes out as the winner. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:01:00 - [25] Oneiroses and Scimitars are fine. They work better when there are no other logistics around since they just plain have more slots with which to boost cap so they can keep repairing. Guardians and Basilisks do not. So yea, i think i am saying that if you have two guardians then they are better, but if you have a guardian and a Oneiros, the Oneiros is better. And 2 Oneiroses are better than 1 guardian and 1 Oneiros. So yea, if you can guarentee that you have two guardians at all times then you will do better with the Guardians.
Ikkajo Minmatar Illudium Space Products	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:09:00 - [26] I don't have any numbers, just real world flight experience in active PvP gangs both in Lowsec and 0.0. In my experience, Goumidog is correct. In small fleet work, you want the Scimitar. With good skills (not perfect) I have a cap-stable T2 tank that does really well and can still fit other mods like MWD. I've seen several nano-scimitar setups that are pretty amazing, even though I don't use one myself. I've not seen a basilisk and the pilots that I know that can fly them say that this is because you can barely fit a tank work noting on them. In a year and a bit of low-sec life, I have yet to see a basilisk used in PvP ops. Where you do see them is in POS repair gangs, where they are pretty darn amazing. As others have noted - spider cap generation with 3 or 4 of them repairing a POS works extremely well. The most common setup I've seen is 4x large repper and 2x cap transfer. One cap transfer in the spider setup and the other cap transfer pointed at another non-logisitics ship that has several large reppers also fitted. -- Industrialist Carebear, CEO Illudium Space Products: Where's the KABOOM!? LP offers by corp at the LP Store DB
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.14 03:27:00 - [27] Originally by: Frances Ducoir you dont need the slots of the oneiros anymore to make the ship cap stable If you dont need the slots to make it more cap stable you get to do other things, like make it cap stable while boosting and perma-running an MWD. Or tanking it.
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:35:00 - [28] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 14/02/2008 20:36:08 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Frances Ducoir you dont need the slots of the oneiros anymore to make the ship cap stable If you dont need the slots to make it more cap stable you get to do other things, like make it cap stable while boosting and perma-running an MWD. Or tanking it. as said above, 2 guardians with only 1 med energy transfer array fitted can sustain enough cap to use ALL but one of their med/lowslots for other mods or tank too at skill lvl V. the amount which guardian and basilisk are able to repair more for their imo very small to none drawbacks are out of balance. Originally by: Goumindong Oneiroses and Scimitars are fine. They work better when there are no other logistics around since they just plain have more slots with which to boost cap so they can keep repairing. Guardians and Basilisks do not. logistics are gangships, most time you will fit an 800mm plate on your logistic ship and resistances and no active repairers. this fact makes you NEED another logistics ship in the gang, for the case logistic ship #1 is beeing attacked. if you take a single logistics to battle, you will loose it very fast, if you take two, they can keep themselves alive. thatswhy i always would bring them in doublepacks or tripplepacks to the battlefield but never alone - they are gang ships. the solo part may work for the scimitar, but using an oneiros solo without a second one or a guardian is high risk. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.15 13:10:00 - [29] hey hey who is dissing my scimitar? it's the most useful logtisics ship in my opinion, but maybe that's just for PvP. first of all it's fast and it locks the fastest, it can even keep drones alive. second you shuld only have 3 large reps on it on the highs for PvP anyways for low sec work you need to tank station and gate guns. yes you can and still perma run 3 large reps at long range. Also don't underestimate the power of the tracking incease module. 2 od them increase a ships range by 50% optimal. for missions that's really badass, it lets ships like a mega use better ammo without the 50% range loss. and without taking up it's own tank or solts. plus it has the lowest sigradius, it can Ab around and out tank a ravens full dps with any missile type I have made it out of some sick situation by dorping AB and overheating my large shield booster on myself. overheating for the win :P
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.15 16:06:00 - [30] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/02/2008 16:08:28 Originally by: Frances Ducoir logistics are gangships Just because logistics are gang ships doesn't mean that you will always have more than one of the same type of logistics in your gang. With a scimitar and logistics 5, you can perma run 3 large shield reps, a mwd, sensor booster, ECCM while nanoing the ship fast enough to avoid most damage. You can do the same on an Oneiros, but go a bit slower. You cant on a guardian or basilisk. You must circle-tank the guardian or basilisk to be valuable and you do not for a Scimitar or Oneiros. The basilisk cannot tank well and use ECCM/Sensor boosters making their circle vulnerable to high DPS and neuts. The guardian cannot use either one of ECCM or sensor boosters. Making them vulnerable to Ewar and neuts They all have their advantages and disadvantages, but yes, if you only fly in situations where the disadvantages are minimized and the advantages extended then you wont have a problem.



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