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SK Rooster No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:03:00 - [1] Yes, i know this has been done, and done, and done. Personally I do not have a problem if people want to speed tank their ships. The problem I see currently is that if you are flying a cruiser or battlecruiser sized ship, there is no viable counter for a nano ship. If you are flying a battleship you can heavy neut them, yes, but why should I have to fly a battleship to fight a cruiser? Should not I be able to fight a cruiser with a cruiser, or even a battlecruiser? I think we should. My suggestion: Increase the range of Energy Destabilizers and Energy Vampires by 40%. Now many people will whine about this saying it is overpowered or something, to that I could suggest we lower the effectiveness of Energy Destabilizers by 20% As an example, current medium energy neut II 180 energy/12 sec at 12km range new: 144 energy/12 sec at 16.8km range I think that this would give many more people a fighting chance against nano ships. Energy Destabilizers/ Energy Vampires take quite a bit a fitting already so a person is sacrificing something. I do not know of any people that use energy destabilizer/ energy vampire other than large because honestly they are not very useful with such a small range.
Zanon Xiu EnTech Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:06:00 - [2] let me guess. you got spanked by an ishtar, is ****ed that your 3 mil ship got owned why you were trying to solo in lowsec.
SK Rooster No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:10:00 - [3] Originally by: Zanon Xiu let me guess. you got spanked by an ishtar, is ****ed that your 3 mil ship got owned why you were trying to solo in lowsec. Firstly, a nano ishtar in lowsec is kind of silly. 1. cant tank sentries 2. sentries destroy drones but really, instead of trolling me could you try to make a contructive comment.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:11:00 - [4] I dunno... there are other defenses that a cruiser has against nano ships. If it's a long range orbiter, it'll be pretty easy to slip out of disruptor range and warp away. If it's a close range orbiter, it's pretty easy to neutralize with meduim neuts or overheat your webs. There are innumerable counters to nano ships.... just that nobody is willing to use them. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Auraurious Quam Singulari The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:15:00 - [5] A lone nano ships is not going to kill a lone BC, if there are mutiple nano ships then what is the problem a gank is a gank regardless of ship type/fitting. I really see no point to a change like this. Perfection.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:17:00 - [6] Edited by: arbalesttom on 13/02/2008 21:23:15 Edited by: arbalesttom on 13/02/2008 21:17:31 Originally by: Liang Nuren There are innumerable counters to nano ships.... just that nobody is willing to use them. -Liang Exactly, the setups that can 'scare away' (not even mentioning 'killing') nanoships are so odd/expensive for general (fleet)pvp, no one is using them. And besides that, only a select few ships (bs/minnie and amarr recons) are even 'remotely good' at this stuff.. *Warning! Sig ahead!* Bounty: Jonny JoJo
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:18:00 - [7] Originally by: Auraurious A lone nano ships is not going to kill a lone BC, if there are mutiple nano ships then what is the problem a gank is a gank regardless of ship type/fitting. I really see no point to a change like this. Well, you'll always kill a lone ship that is unprepared for you (either by fit or by pilot). -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
SK Rooster No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Auraurious A lone nano ships is not going to kill a lone BC, if there are mutiple nano ships then what is the problem a gank is a gank regardless of ship type/fitting. I really see no point to a change like this. I guess the problem I see that so many people fly with 'multiple nano ships' as you say. If we decide to fight them other than fitting a bunch of battleships with heavy neut, I do not see how a typical 'gank' or 'tank' ship has a chance against them.
Auraurious Quam Singulari The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:25:00 - [9] Originally by: arbalesttom stuffs exactly, you cant be prepared for everything, take your pick in what you want your ship to be designed for, why must your ships be able to preform in all areas of eve? Why not have differnt people in your gang be prepared for different things. and anyway even a drake with overloaded web can kill have of the reatrded nano pilots in this game and a web is hardly an 'obscure' mod now is it Perfection.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:28:00 - [10] Originally by: SK Rooster Originally by: Auraurious A lone nano ships is not going to kill a lone BC, if there are mutiple nano ships then what is the problem a gank is a gank regardless of ship type/fitting. I really see no point to a change like this. I guess the problem I see that so many people fly with 'multiple nano ships' as you say. If we decide to fight them other than fitting a bunch of battleships with heavy neut, I do not see how a typical 'gank' or 'tank' ship has a chance against them. brains. to counter a nano-gang you, as an FC need to think a bit out of the box and to obey to certain rules of the war. the most important is, never engage in the enemy's terms. also an all-BS gang is really not good vs nano-gangs. try to mix more stuff there, such as inties and recons and stuff. also, a good falcon/rook pilot can pretty much shutdown a good part of the nano-gang. hell a kitsune can do it with a bit of luck. just remember: if you're defending, just because you can't kill, doesn't mean you lost. if you manage to make this nano-gang turn tails and flee with no kills long enough, they will move to greener pastures. --- planetary interaction idea!
Auraurious Quam Singulari The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:28:00 - [11] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Auraurious A lone nano ships is not going to kill a lone BC, if there are mutiple nano ships then what is the problem a gank is a gank regardless of ship type/fitting. I really see no point to a change like this. Well, you'll always kill a lone ship that is unprepared for you (either by fit or by pilot). -Liang thats not true at all unless they A) have a stupid setup or b) afk Perfection.
SK Rooster No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Auraurious and anyway even a drake with overloaded web can kill have of the reatrded nano pilots in this game and a web is hardly an 'obscure' mod now is it A Stasis Webifier is a great module of course. I will not argue with this. I am just trying to make the argument that it would be nice to have another module somewhat effective against nano ships. I would think that amarr pilots would like this as well with limited mid slots, it might make the web not such a 'must have' that it is now.
Ariel Dawn Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:30:00 - [13] Giving Medium neuts a few extra km seems like a decent idea, currently 12.5km is not enough; although lowering their drain amount isn't really needed. Heavy neuts are fine, and small will never reach anyway. Would also buff the Pilgrim on the side and perhaps quell the complaints.
Orar Ironfist Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:31:00 - [14] A) Tank em and dock/jump out (only if theres 5+ nano ishtars will a heavy tanked bs have issues....By heavy tanked bs a i mean a good fit not some crap fit) B)If your in a belt/mish....doesnt matter what they bring 1 nano.....in fact a few normals and your ****** because you arent tanked right. C) If your solo'in and you see a nano ishtar and think "Hey im in a <insert Bc sized ship>, I can take em!!!111 LETSSSs DO THEESEeeee!!!111".....You deserve to get owned. Pirate for Life(no matter my sec)
Auraurious Quam Singulari The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:32:00 - [15] Originally by: SK Rooster Originally by: Auraurious A lone nano ships is not going to kill a lone BC, if there are mutiple nano ships then what is the problem a gank is a gank regardless of ship type/fitting. I really see no point to a change like this. I guess the problem I see that so many people fly with 'multiple nano ships' as you say. If we decide to fight them other than fitting a bunch of battleships with heavy neut, I do not see how a typical 'gank' or 'tank' ship has a chance against them. most ships have have a mwd and a web, get your gang spread out nicely so that if they are orbiting they will mor ethan likly come into range of another ship then boost mwd and overload web onto them, simple. There are not that many good nano pilots out there as it may seem, most will jsut click orbit and that will be them so its easy to pop them. also as i think has been said up there vary your gang, if you fly a non versitile gang then why shouldnt it loose Perfection.
SK Rooster No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Orar Ironfist A) Tank em and dock/jump out (only if theres 5+ nano ishtars will a heavy tanked bs have issues....By heavy tanked bs a i mean a good fit not some crap fit) B)If your in a belt/mish....doesnt matter what they bring 1 nano.....in fact a few normals and your ****** because you arent tanked right. C) If your solo'in and you see a nano ishtar and think "Hey im in a <insert Bc sized ship>, I can take em!!!111 LETSSSs DO THEESEeeee!!!111".....You deserve to get owned. A) Sorry maybe you misunderstood me, I am not talking about how to run away from a nano gang, I am talking about how to fight a nano gang. B) If you are npcing and get caught then you should die, I agree, once again the point of the OP was PVP fitted ships. C) I simply disagree, if you are in a battlecruiser, esp a t1 tier 2 battlecruiser you should at least have a fighting chance if fitted well.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:36:00 - [17] Originally by: Auraurious thats not true at all unless they A) have a stupid setup or b) afk http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=player&name=Liang+Nuren&id=3065731&page=1&filter=kills#mail Ok, as far as fits go, it's not tooo terrible. Also, he DID shoot my drones (and I lost several). -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Auraurious Quam Singulari The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:36:00 - [18] Originally by: SK Rooster beep a web will always be a must have mod no matter what even if you brought this in. There are other mods that can help to kill nano pilots as their is. and talkign about the amarr this would have the range of neuts on a recons to silly distances no? Perfection.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:37:00 - [19] The main thing is that a HAC > cruiser whether it's nano or not. Get used to getting killed by Heavy Assault Ships in your run of the mill Cruiser. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
Auraurious Quam Singulari The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:39:00 - [20] Edited by: Auraurious on 13/02/2008 21:42:25 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Auraurious thats not true at all unless they A) have a stupid setup or b) afk http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=player&name=Liang+Nuren&id=3065731&page=1&filter=kills#mail Ok, as far as fits go, it's not tooo terrible. Also, he DID shoot my drones (and I lost several). -Liang Fine i will add in a C) pilot incompetance. any have decent player who knows about the game would have been going at your drones no matter how unprepared he was so those ogres wouldnt be doing much damage dead or in your bay now would they. EDIT: first time i read it i skiped totaly past you mentioning he was shooting them. maybe his missile skills are just balls Perfection.
Orar Ironfist Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:41:00 - [21] Originally by: SK Rooster Originally by: Orar Ironfist A) Tank em and dock/jump out (only if theres 5+ nano ishtars will a heavy tanked bs have issues....By heavy tanked bs a i mean a good fit not some crap fit) B)If your in a belt/mish....doesnt matter what they bring 1 nano.....in fact a few normals and your **** because you arent tanked right. C) If your solo'in and you see a nano ishtar and think "Hey im in a <insert Bc sized ship>, I can take em!!!111 LETSSSs DO THEESEeeee!!!111".....You deserve to get owned. A) Sorry maybe you misunderstood me, I am not talking about how to run away from a nano gang, I am talking about how to fight a nano gang. B) If you are npcing and get caught then you should die, I agree, once again the point of the OP was PVP fitted ships. C) I simply disagree, if you are in a battlecruiser, esp a t1 tier 2 battlecruiser you should at least have a fighting chance if fitted well**. Man even if a non-nano'd tanked ishtar engaged a t1 teir 2 bc it would get owned ridiculously hard.....They are called Heavy Assault ships For a reason. Matter of Fact take any hac that can tank or nano (sac's, zealot's, cerb's) And theyd own any teir2 t1 bc Pirate for Life(no matter my sec)
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:43:00 - [22] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/02/2008 21:45:35 Originally by: SK Rooster The problem I see currently is that if you are flying a cruiser or battlecruiser sized ship, there is no viable counter for a nano ship. Cruiser SHOULD die to a nano-HAC except thanks to extreme luck. Battlecruisers counter them VERY much fine. I literally LOL at Vagabonds in a Hurricane (the best it can do is waste barrage M and leave. The worst it can do is die in a horrible way as I will web it eventually if it goes too close.) and will shrug them off in a Cyclone, and I expect the Harbringer does quite the same, while the Drake can just LOL at one. In fact, battlecruisers have one of the most powerful nano-ships counters if you actually skill into leadership. Originally by: SK Rooster If you are flying a battleship you can heavy neut them, yes, but why should I have to fly a battleship to fight a cruiser? Should not I be able to fight a cruiser with a cruiser, or even a battlecruiser? I think we should. In a cruiser you shouldn't be able to. Battlecruisers can and do it already. Originally by: SK Rooster My suggestion: Increase the range of Energy Destabilizers and Energy Vampires by 40%. Now many people will whine about this saying it is overpowered or something, to that I could suggest we lower the effectiveness of Energy Destabilizers by 20% As an example, current medium energy neut II 180 energy/12 sec at 12km range new: 144 energy/12 sec at 16.8km range I think that this would give many more people a fighting chance against nano ships. Energy Destabilizers/ Energy Vampires take quite a bit a fitting already so a person is sacrificing something. I do not know of any people that use energy destabilizer/ energy vampire other than large because honestly they are not very useful with such a small range. No. Neuts are extremely powerful as they are, and this would make them more powerful on BS which cannot fit a full rack of mediums really. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
SK Rooster No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix The main thing is that a HAC > cruiser whether it's nano or not. Get used to getting killed by Heavy Assault Ships in your run of the mill Cruiser. My apologies if I was unclear on the OP. I am talking about a 'gank' or 'tank' fitted ship versus a 'nano' ship. It does not necessarily have to be a tech1 cruiser versus a vagabond, could be a tanked Ishtar (if such a thing exists anymore) versus a vagabond, or any other number of comparisons.
Auraurious Quam Singulari The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:47:00 - [24] Originally by: SK Rooster My apologies if I was unclear on the OP. I am talking about a 'gank' or 'tank' fitted ship versus a 'nano' ship. It does not necessarily have to be a tech1 cruiser versus a vagabond, could be a tanked Ishtar (if such a thing exists anymore) versus a vagabond, or any other number of comparisons. Im glad you have said this, in this exact situation you have mentioned the tanked ishtar has the better chance of winning. Perfection.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:49:00 - [25] Originally by: SK Rooster Originally by: Vicious Phoenix The main thing is that a HAC > cruiser whether it's nano or not. Get used to getting killed by Heavy Assault Ships in your run of the mill Cruiser. My apologies if I was unclear on the OP. I am talking about a 'gank' or 'tank' fitted ship versus a 'nano' ship. It does not necessarily have to be a tech1 cruiser versus a vagabond, could be a tanked Ishtar (if such a thing exists anymore) versus a vagabond, or any other number of comparisons. A tanked Zealot will either kill or force the Vagabond to disengage. That's the "problem" with tank setups. They're not made for movement - and they make no provision for chasing smaller enemies and holding them down. OTOH, nano ships are expressly designed to run away if things go south. Nano ships are specifically fit to counter tanked ships... and tanked ships are specifically not fit to counter nano ships. It seems a fair trade off to keep small/fleeting skirmishes in the game. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:51:00 - [26] Originally by: SK Rooster My apologies if I was unclear on the OP. I am talking about a 'gank' or 'tank' fitted ship versus a 'nano' ship. It does not necessarily have to be a tech1 cruiser versus a vagabond, could be a tanked Ishtar (if such a thing exists anymore) versus a vagabond, or any other number of comparisons. Clearly a tanked Ishtar has all the disadvantages of a Myrmidon regarding actually hitting nano-ships, due to the fact it uses weapons which either get to target and do massive DPS or don't get to target at all (however, the benefit from this is the fact it will preety much own bigger stuff in a much better way then the Vagabond will) - on the other hand, it could probably eventually shake the Vagabond off, given the fact it can MWD for much longer then a Vagabond (and is very likely to fit a tracking disturptor, meaning hitting a target going at 1.5 or so km/s is much harder in a 4.5km/s ship). However, when flying a BC, I'm much more scared of a Ishtar then a Vagabond really. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
SK Rooster No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Liang Nuren A tanked Zealot will either kill or force the Vagabond to disengage. That's the "problem" with tank setups. They're not made for movement - and they make no provision for chasing smaller enemies and holding them down. OTOH, nano ships are expressly designed to run away if things go south. Nano ships are specifically fit to counter tanked ships... and tanked ships are specifically not fit to counter nano ships. It seems a fair trade off to keep small/fleeting skirmishes in the game. -Liang I have no problem with 'small skirmishes'. In fact I love them, it is one of the good parts of this game. The point you are making is that nano ships can counter tank ships, which is great. However, tank ships cannot counter nano ships? Does that mean I have to fly a nano ship to counter a nano ship? I would think that there would be a better answer than this.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.13 22:07:00 - [28] Originally by: SK Rooster I have no problem with 'small skirmishes'. In fact I love them, it is one of the good parts of this game. The point you are making is that nano ships can counter tank ships, which is great. However, tank ships cannot counter nano ships? Does that mean I have to fly a nano ship to counter a nano ship? I would think that there would be a better answer than this. No, I'm saying that if someone fits a direct counter to you, then you should expect do die unless you fit a counter to them. Tank fit battleships simply are not fitting the counters available to them. Battlecruisers are probably the worst offenders in not fitting the appropriate counters (TC's, webs, and gang mods). But there currently exist many counters to nano ships - and two extremely powerful counters in the form of webs and neutralizers. The most powerful counter, though, is your brain. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
SK Rooster No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.13 22:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Liang Nuren But there currently exist many counters to nano ships - and two extremely powerful counters in the form of webs and neutralizers. The most powerful counter, though, is your brain. -Liang You say exactly there that a neutralizer is a powerful counter, to which i agree. Yet on a cruiser or battlecruiser sized ship the range of a energy neut is not long enough to be effective, i.e. not enough range.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.13 22:14:00 - [30] Originally by: SK Rooster You say exactly there that a neutralizer is a powerful counter, to which i agree. Yet on a cruiser or battlecruiser sized ship the range of a energy neut is not long enough to be effective, i.e. not enough range. Cruiser and BC sized ships have other counters though - such as higher base tracking. Also, are you prepared to see 70km neuts on a curse? -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)

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