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Hard to hold main tank aggro since Trinity?

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WardogX Minmatar Outkasts	Posted - 2008.02.14 19:45:00 - [1] Has anyone who plays with alts or with friends noticed that since Trinity on multi waved missions its now very hard to hold aggro on main tank or damage dealer? I have tried everything and it seems aggro always going to weakest ships. I have dished out maybe 2-3 waves solo worth of damage before I have alt hop in and as soon as 2nd or 3rd wave is dead.. they ALL aggro the alt.. I always have him sitting 10-20km further back in opposite direction of rat spawn too (behind me). It makes no sense. Something changed with Trinity. I even have tried jumpin the alts back out recontrolling the aggro... then bring them back in.. after current wave is done and new wave posp out.. same thing they ALL aggro the alt. I even try to quick target the rats the second they come out.. and it doesnt matter by time my locks hit.. they got my alt 100% locked. I also means ALL rats lock the alt.. not 1 or some.. all of them. Its like the alt is getting primaried? whats up with this? anyone else getting this problem? Rig Ship Repackage Solution
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.14 19:59:00 - [2] So, the rats are acting smarter, now? There're doing what you do and take the small ships out first to more quickly lower the DPS they take? And you don't like this because... it makes your missions harder? My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
WardogX Minmatar Outkasts	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:09:00 - [3] Edited by: WardogX on 14/02/2008 20:10:58 It doesn't make them harder cause I always keep my alts heavy tanked for safety...what it does is makes it harder to define group roles for missions. There should be primary tanks and primary support/dps. The game shouldn't just act finicky flip its aggro every wave when it makes no sense that they should... especially if that alt is doing zero damage. It used to work properly. Also when comparing this to other mmo's (group oriented games) methods to maintain aggro on main tank are defined (as it was in eve previous to trinity) but something changed recently. I wanna know if this is a bug or if this is unique thing I am experiencing.. or if this is the way its gonna be from here in. If it is.. I will take the alt out of the logistic ship..and throw it in a heavy DPS ship like most others do for alts. Maybe there should be a "taunting" device that angers the rat and forces it to attack you. Rig Ship Repackage Solution
Yargo Metash Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.14 20:11:00 - [4] Edited by: Yargo Metash on 14/02/2008 20:12:33 I've noticed this too. Hence why I tend to only take buddies on missions that I know they can tank some aggro. Say I'm in a lvl 4, I'll only take, at minimum, a cruiser with strong reccomendations for them to warp out as soon as they get aggro. If you're doing it just to give bounties to the alt, you could always have him sit there in a pod... Rats tend to not attack those. Edit: I haven't noticed this specifically, unless it's on a certain mission (will need a reference, been awhile since I took anyone smaller than a BS into a lvl 4 with me) but I'm not surprised that the alt at least got SOME aggro.
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:04:00 - [5] Mostly any mission that had waves was random aggro, thing was we didn't have many wave missions post-Dragon. Consequently it wasn't readily apparent. Now that more waves are being introduced we see increased random aggro on other players and drones. ---------------- Originally by: "Cyberus" cause its has no sence anyway your brains is simply wont accept that anyway.
Mad Crafter Green Men Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:36:00 - [6] I've done The Blockade lv3 a few times with a noob friend in a crusier and me in a BC. Every ship of every wave without fail targets him. AE on the other hand the aggro gets split. It looked like the big ones aggroed him, and the small ones on me but that coulda just been luck. I have no idea what to do about this though besides having the smaller ships warp out every wave. I guess that could be you're aggro mod, all though a but annoying, espeshally for the last room of AE.
WardogX Minmatar Outkasts	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:42:00 - [7] Ya warping out isn't an "preferred" option when your are 2-3 acceleration gates deep into your mission... especially if the points between gates require you to afterburn like 70km's distance to the next acceleration gate. Rig Ship Repackage Solution
Cragen o'mass Caldari Free trade for freedom	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:05:00 - [8] i am personally using my alt in a domi to shield rep with both logistic drones and remote reps to boost my raven tank. i find the domi is good because it can handle a little agro from a split agro spawn, and i just make sure i take out the ships that target him. also once dmg on my raven goes down i can switch out the shield rep drones to damage dealers to make the mission go faster. i haven't the skill for logistics ship but this set up works like a dream for me. --------------------------------------- I Think everyone @ tiscali plays WoW
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.02.14 23:38:00 - [9] I haven't done missions in a while now, but i always remember the spawns being random when it comes to aggro. they have gone after abaddons, ravens, drakes, ishkurs, destroyers, seemingly at random.
Gantrithor105 Caldari Acerbus Vindictum Nex Super Vos	Posted - 2008.02.15 03:06:00 - [10] Originally by: WardogX Edited by: WardogX on 14/02/2008 20:10:58 what it does is makes it harder to define group roles for missions. There should be primary tanks and primary support/dps. This is something you decided, not EVE. Any logical PvP engagement would target the alt first... Just because you feel that your mission alt has been gimped doesn't mean that it was a bad decision by CCP.
WardogX Minmatar Outkasts	Posted - 2008.02.15 03:55:00 - [11] Edited by: WardogX on 15/02/2008 04:03:00 Originally by: Gantrithor105 Originally by: WardogX Edited by: WardogX on 14/02/2008 20:10:58 what it does is makes it harder to define group roles for missions. There should be primary tanks and primary support/dps. This is something you decided, not EVE. Any logical PvP engagement would target the alt first... Just because you feel that your mission alt has been gimped doesn't mean that it was a bad decision by CCP. This isnt something I decided or invented ....Pre trinity as long as I followed a few simply rules I could chose who is main tank in a mission with rare if ever loss of aggro (even with waves). My rules where: Go in 1st with main tank get full room aggro (not partial, but full aggro) get everything blinking on me. Then bring in the alts and back them up 20-30km behind rat spawns and main tank. Then when new waves drops in they "used to" target the primary tank who had aggro from previous wave. On rare occasion you sometimes would catch 1-2 targets on other people in the group but never 100% of the targets. Since Trinity they literally target anything but the primary tank on second wave. Also, my alts are far from gimp.. I already adapted them right after patch(I had to). I can count on the fact that they catch 100% of aggro in multi wave missions now so I have fit them for heavy tank. Whats annoying now is the rules of engagement don't make sense like they used to and a ship not designed to be primary tank (as in wrong kind of ship) can easily get overwhelmed if it gets 100% of all aggro. Despite the change I didn't lose any alt ships.. however things have gotten rough time to time for the alts. I agree in pvp an obvious alt would be primaried quick especially in something like a logistic ship. However, I don't remember reading anything about NPC AI improvements in patch notes for trinity.... which leads me to question if this might be a bug. I know how missions were pre trinity and aggro managment DID change. What I would like to know is this something changed on purpose (I didn't read in patch notes) or did something get bugged in the code. Just trying to see what others experiences are like. If it was a deliberate change there must be new rules for AI engagement and I'd like to know what they are. Rig Ship Repackage Solution
Veryez	Posted - 2008.02.15 04:24:00 - [12] In answer to your question, no, wave missions have always had randon aggro (though I found if you keep one ship close to the gate and one @ sniper range in the Blockade, the close ship always gets aggro). In the older versions of AE, WC and Silence, having second ships pulling aggro was always a problem (fixed in revelations). I avoid the problem by pulling full aggro (others wait while I pull aggro), then letting them kill at will. Normally one missile/shot per group is enough to aggro each group. Of course you need a good tank (or a logistics ship helping you - I have run missions w/a basilisk pilot, no lvl 4 mission could come close to breaking the tank a logistic ship provides).
Annihilator X Caldari Outkasts	Posted - 2008.02.15 04:39:00 - [13] Edited by: Annihilator X on 15/02/2008 04:40:38 Originally by: Veryez In answer to your question, no, wave missions have always had randon aggro (though I found if you keep one ship close to the gate and one @ sniper range in the Blockade, the close ship always gets aggro). In the older versions of AE, WC and Silence, having second ships pulling aggro was always a problem (fixed in revelations). I avoid the problem by pulling full aggro (others wait while I pull aggro), then letting them kill at will. Normally one missile/shot per group is enough to aggro each group. Of course you need a good tank (or a logistics ship helping you - I have run missions w/a basilisk pilot, no lvl 4 mission could come close to breaking the tank a logistic ship provides). you still run missions with your logistic friend? I am starting to wonder if logistics get full aggro from rats now between waves.
Veryez	Posted - 2008.02.15 18:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Annihilator X you still run missions with your logistic friend? I am starting to wonder if logistics get full aggro from rats now between waves. Sadly no, he hasn't played since last fall. However a Basilisk does have a pretty good tank, light aggro was never a problem for him. If he drew heavy aggro, he would just warpout and back - I'd have to tank for only a minute or so. We did it a couple times, only once did it get pretty hairy. That's why I used past tense. However I've run alot of missions since trinity was released and have never had rats switch from my main tank once I pulled aggro, but then I don't stop shooting either.
WardogX Minmatar Outkasts	Posted - 2008.02.16 00:30:00 - [15] Originally by: Veryez Originally by: Annihilator X you still run missions with your logistic friend? I am starting to wonder if logistics get full aggro from rats now between waves. Sadly no, he hasn't played since last fall. However a Basilisk does have a pretty good tank, light aggro was never a problem for him. If he drew heavy aggro, he would just warpout and back - I'd have to tank for only a minute or so. We did it a couple times, only once did it get pretty hairy. That's why I used past tense. However I've run alot of missions since trinity was released and have never had rats switch from my main tank once I pulled aggro, but then I don't stop shooting either. Ya they dont appear to be switching on the fly once someone has control of aggro (whoever it is) wether its logistic ship, main dps or drones... they stayed locked on until they die, player warps out.. or drones pulled in. Thankfully random target bouncing isnt an issue. Its more of a matter of why they 100% go for the logisitic ship since trinity. I got blackade mission last night since I 1st typed this. I sat 100km off the gate in the middle. Behind me another 50km (thats 150km off the gate) I sat the logistic ship. Would you believe between waves they still flew up to target that logistic ship non stop... 100% of all rats targeted that logisitic ship without fail (i never got targeted again after 1st warp in wave). Something was changed in code post trinity. I think what I will do now is experiment with various ship types.. perhaps the logistics is coded to get primaried now. Its to 100% accurate to be a bug and its literally every single multi wave mission. Rig Ship Repackage Solution
echohead	Posted - 2008.02.16 01:15:00 - [16] Our corp runs missions in pairs often. And it is almost a minigame to see who gets the aggro. It also is a great source of trashtalk "they are shooting me because I am the only one here in a good ship!"
WardogX Minmatar Outkasts	Posted - 2008.02.16 02:34:00 - [17] Edited by: WardogX on 16/02/2008 02:34:17 Originally by: echohead Our corp runs missions in pairs often. And it is almost a minigame to see who gets the aggro. It also is a great source of trashtalk "they are shooting me because I am the only one here in a good ship!" Do you find that they go after certain ship types 100% of the time on new waves?(when multiple ships are present, before the new wave drops in).... If so, which ship types get primaried always. Rig Ship Repackage Solution
Corranos Blaise	Posted - 2008.02.16 03:01:00 - [18] Sounds like it could be useful for those annoying salvage ships that pop into your mission and proceed to salvage your wrecks while you're fighting. Cormorant, meet multiple BS spawns.
echohead	Posted - 2008.02.16 03:21:00 - [19] Wardog I believe that it has more to do with where you are in relation to the npcs than anything else. I think the reinforcments go after whomever they are closest to first. Or perhaps whomever is closer to a trigger point?
WardogX Minmatar Outkasts	Posted - 2008.02.16 04:16:00 - [20] Edited by: WardogX on 16/02/2008 04:25:21 Originally by: echohead Wardog I believe that it has more to do with where you are in relation to the npcs than anything else. I think the reinforcements go after whomever they are closest to first. Or perhaps whomever is closer to a trigger point? Thats the way i thought of it too.. or at least the way it used to be its not anymore. I proved this wrong last night in blockade .. new spawns over 150km away in a new wave(out of target range of the logistics ship) literally passed right by me on my damage ship (and i was under 100k away.. logistics was 150km from targets.. 50km behind me) they flew right past me and targeted the logistics 150km away. Like they had a single minded objective to crush the logistics ship. 100% of the targets in every new wave did this. The only advantage was.. being so far away on that logistic ship it barely got any damage due to poor falloff of the rats. Simply put I was 50km closer.. logistic ship was out of their initial target range.. and i never got targeted the entire mission wave after wave.. they all went for the logistic ship behind me. Odd right? Which is why i started this thread.. is this a bug .. or some new code to deter logistic ships from being used? (its not deterring me.. i am going to continue using logistics on an alt despite the challenge. Not sure why logistic ships would not want to be used being that they are zero DPS or drone only DPS.. lesser of 2 evils having full blown DPS ships as backup. I am going to consider making that alt full blown DPS as backup though and fore go the logistics.. will be less maintenance during the mission. Rig Ship Repackage Solution
Richard Third	Posted - 2008.02.16 07:50:00 - [21] i think something in the targeting system has changed. That is, what you want to draw aggro doesn't get agro as often as it used to especially if you have drones out.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2008.02.16 10:09:00 - [22] Originally by: WardogX Edited by: WardogX on 14/02/2008 20:10:58 It doesn't make them harder cause I always keep my alts heavy tanked for safety...what it does is makes it harder to define group roles for missions. There should be primary tanks and primary support/dps. The game shouldn't just act finicky flip its aggro every wave when it makes no sense that they should... especially if that alt is doing zero damage. It used to work properly. Also when comparing this to other mmo's (group oriented games) methods to maintain aggro on main tank are defined (as it was in eve previous to trinity) but something changed recently. Man your conception of missions is quite warped. Sounds like you want them to be some sort of factory process... I actually like it that rats are a bit more unpredictable now and less prone to the 'One ship to tank them all' approach. The more CCP moves the rats to being smarter, the more interesting and maybe even risky missions will become. Especially for groups. And smarter NPCs is exactly where risk in missions should come from. Not from ganking players. But I guess you are not a mission runner, but a mission farmer... Your mechanics failing you is a good thing imho. If anything, the 'bug' was it working so well in the first place. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
WardogX Minmatar Outkasts	Posted - 2008.02.16 10:44:00 - [23] Edited by: WardogX on 16/02/2008 10:53:35 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Man your conception of missions is quite warped. Sounds like you want them to be some sort of factory process... I actually like it that rats are a bit more unpredictable now and less prone to the 'One ship to tank them all' approach. The more CCP moves the rats to being smarter, the more interesting and maybe even risky missions will become. Especially for groups. And smarter NPCs is exactly where risk in missions should come from. Not from ganking players. But I guess you are not a mission runner, but a mission farmer... Your mechanics failing you is a good thing imho. If anything, the 'bug' was it working so well in the first place. Not sure how many missions per day a person has to do before they become a farmer.. but I do 2-3 missions per day and im bored stiff and stop doing them. But when I do them.. ya i guess i play them to crush, I wont deny that. Aggro managment is out of wack in eve this is a simply discussion to get a viewpoint of others who might be experiencing changes post trinity (or in general). What I am doing still works.. as I stated even on hardest missions I didn't lose an alt. Even if I was looking to make this "easier" i would simply toss that alt in a heavy tanked BS setup for DPS so its not even about that. All these missions are easy to solo so its not even about capability. NPC aggro management in eve seems sketchy at best. Always has to be honest. If you solo none of this is relevant or obvious. I ran solo missions for a while before I attempted tossin alts into the mix and all of it seemed functional (for most part.. reason I attempted alts ever). Even when I group with players I have had people tell me before they lost ships in groups before because of wacky targeting issues (and that was pre trinity). Grouping is when aggro managment gets sketchy.. not when you solo.. so if you solo you cant at all appreciate this. Even pre trinity I have seen times where aggro glitched out in missions. I guess the start of this post was to see if this is happening to anyone else. I see to some extent it does. Perhaps new reason for this post should be to make missions more group friendly in eve. Increase the challenge level of missions in groups, but at same time give us a way to assign a proper tank to save backup players from having to jump out (give tank ability of taunting npc's or pull aggro by dishing out more damage).. The way it seems to be headed is having a group full ships ships which all can solo the mission on their own but are there as a group.. if everyone there can solo.. sucks the fun out of it a bit...where is the fun? I agree I like the idea of my alt getting attacked when i don't expect it. But not being able to do anything about it.. outside warp out .. or kill all the attacking targets quickly.. those are 2 ridiculous options. Perhaps I expect more of EVE missions since I have played main tank in several other mmo's and all of them have ways to save your group mates as the main tank. EVE isn't far from being able to be similar (it has healers, dps, heavy tank, buffs) I mean only difference is ability for tank to control the aggro to protect their friends. When so many other aspects are identical to other kinds of mmo's .. why not go this extra mile? Rig Ship Repackage Solution
Helen Eve Innovative Technologies	Posted - 2008.02.16 11:20:00 - [24] Originally by: WardogX When so many other aspects are identical to other kinds of mmo's .. why not go this extra mile? If EvE ever stops doing things differently from other MMO's I'm quitting. I still don't get this whine, probably because its seems extremely stupid if you got friends/alts with you in a missions things will be dying so quick that it won't matter! Just carry remote rep drones with all ships and rep each other. Or carry on whining I guess. Top Tip - Don't eat yellow snow
Pantaloon McPants	Posted - 2008.02.16 12:34:00 - [25] It seems they go for the lowest/easiest ship type, ive yet to see red boxes switch agro but new waves always seem to go for the weakest ship, both my mission chars can take full agro so no big deal now but i remember back in the day when i had one in a logistics, as long as it was moving it could tank the bs pretty good and was fun calling all the smaller targets as quick as i could before it popped :)
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:27:00 - [26] Why on earth should anyone be able to tell their enemies what to shoot at? Personally I would be more than happy if NPCs not only targeted new people in new waves, but actually SWITCHED targets when they have multiple enemies and 'notice' that they are currently shooting the 'bait' tank ship... There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Yargo Metash Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.16 23:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Why on earth should anyone be able to tell their enemies what to shoot at? Personally I would be more than happy if NPCs not only targeted new people in new waves, but actually SWITCHED targets when they have multiple enemies and 'notice' that they are currently shooting the 'bait' tank ship... That would be very interesting. In some cases they already do this when you encounter an enemy with a leash. It's a rather clumsy target switch, but it's still a target switch. As for more group friendly missions: I disagree. I view the current mission difficulty as quite balanced. A solo person can do missions of their respective lvl (cruisers in lvl 2's for instance.) a group of said people can either do the same mission faster, or do the next level up mission. (Haven't flown in lvl 5's yet, not really looking forward to.) The only time this is a problem is when you mix class's of ships doing the higher classes mission... And even then it's not that bad, as warp out/warp in reduces the risk. Heck, it also fits in with the risk<-> reward ratio. That stabber pilot you invited along to share bounties on a lvl 4 isn't going to do much but help break tanks, and is at quite a bit of risk for doing so, but they'll get substantially more reward (bounties and shared rewards, as well as possible dibs on loot/salvage) than their normal lvl 2's. Heck, I should bring more people on lvl 4's from now on. Muahaha.
Aleniat	Posted - 2008.02.17 21:42:00 - [28] Found this in the player guide whilst I was looking for something else. Have no idea how old it is: "Also, if there are mission respawns, these tend to target the weakest ship present first. It is best, therefore, to try and ensure the tank receives all aggression to protect the supporting players."
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.02.18 01:00:00 - [29] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 18/02/2008 01:00:39 Heaven forbid the missions are more of a challenge, with rats targeting support ships first. On the topic of switching targets though,, unless it's explicitly to stop a scrambler, how often are you beating up on one BS and suddenly decide to switch to another BS? Improve Market Competition!
YourDaddi	Posted - 2008.02.18 04:34:00 - [30] Edited by: YourDaddi on 18/02/2008 04:34:48 be a better tank. problem solved.

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