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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.15 16:11:00 -
[1]
Make them cheaper. Occams razor, here. Since they're about as, if not a little less effective than a cruiser, they should cost equal to or a bit less than a cruiser. Otherwise, there's little reason to fly them beyond the novelty factor.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.15 16:16:00 -
[2]
1. Their price is (like most tech 2 ships) determined more by supply and demand than by production cost, so it's not really possible to make them cheaper. It's the player-driven market.
2. They are worth flying allready.
3. Comparing them to to cruisers is comparing apples to oranges.
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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.15 16:23:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Hannobaal
1. Their price is (like most tech 2 ships) determined more by supply and demand than by production cost, so it's not really possible to make them cheaper. It's the player-driven market.
2. They are worth flying allready.
3. Comparing them to to cruisers is comparing apples to oranges.
1. Supply and demand isn't the only factor that determines ship prices. There is also mineral cost. Lower the mineral cost, ship prices will drop.
2. The general consensus is that AFs need some attention. CCP is already working on it.
3. As it stands right now, cruisers and AFs fill a similar role, so, functionally, they are more like red apples and crab apples.
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Halander Meo
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Posted - 2008.02.15 16:33:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm
Originally by: Hannobaal
1. Their price is (like most tech 2 ships) determined more by supply and demand than by production cost, so it's not really possible to make them cheaper. It's the player-driven market.
2. They are worth flying allready.
3. Comparing them to to cruisers is comparing apples to oranges.
1. Supply and demand isn't the only factor that determines ship prices. There is also mineral cost. Lower the mineral cost, ship prices will drop.
2. The general consensus is that AFs need some attention. CCP is already working on it.
3. As it stands right now, cruisers and AFs fill a similar role, so, functionally, they are more like red apples and crab apples.
crab apples?? :O
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.15 16:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm
1. Supply and demand isn't the only factor that determines ship prices. There is also mineral cost. Lower the mineral cost, ship prices will drop.
They are (again like most tech 2 ships) already quite a bit more expensive than their production cost. Especially so if they're produced from a tech 2 bpo. So making them cheaper isn't going to make a huge difference as long as people keep buying them, which we do.
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2. The general consensus is that AFs need some attention. CCP is already working on it.
The consensus on the forums. A lot of people in game fly them and enjoy flying them. Me included.
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3. As it stands right now, cruisers and AFs fill a similar role, so, functionally, they are more like red apples and crab apples.
They don't fill a similar role unless we're talking about a tiny few cruisers. For example, the Stabber is pretty similar to a Jaguar in that they work as heavy tacklers. Except the Jaguar is slower and has less dps, but locks faster, is about 3 times harder to track (because of sig radius), and uses guns that track targets far better than the Stabber's guns.
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Polaris Lumine
Red.
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Posted - 2008.02.15 16:43:00 -
[6]
The Jag is one of my most favourite ships to fly!!
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Polaris Lumine
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Arazel Chainfire
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Posted - 2008.02.15 17:09:00 -
[7]
shhh - stop arguing. If they make the AF cheaper it means that its easier to replace them if someone pops you :P
And plus... who wouldn't want a cheaper ship? 
On a more serious note... it would be better if they got a real fourth bonus...
-Arazel
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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.15 17:20:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Mahn AlNouhm on 15/02/2008 17:20:53
I'm not suggesting that AFs are completely worthless. I've got one and I fly it periodically, too. BUT, as you said, the consensus on the forums is that AFs don't have a distinct role. CCP is in accord. Your great experiences with AFs aren't representative of the vast majority of Eve pilots and, as such, people aren't buying them in volume. Since people aren't buying in volume, people aren't producing in volume, and the prices go up. My reasoning is that if you make it *easier* to produce them (either by dropping mineral costs or by decreasing the sp requirement needed to produce them, whatever. I'm not interested in the mechanics as much as the idea), more people will produce them, flooding the market with product, and, as a result, dropping the prices.
The only point I wholly disagree with you on is that AFs don't fill the same role as cruisers. Sure, there are roles that cruisers fill that AFs can't, but each race's t1 assault cruiser IS comparable to its AF variant. Stabber - Jag, Moa - Harpy, etc. Yes, there are differences, but the point is that AFs don't have a specific role that can't be filled equally as well by a t1 cruiser. If they were cheaper, there might be more incentive to fly them.
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Orakkus
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Posted - 2008.02.15 17:35:00 -
[9]
Can someone link where CCP indicates they are looking into AFs?
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ceyriot
Minmatar
Crimson Rebellion
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Posted - 2008.02.15 17:47:00 -
[10]
Edited by: ceyriot on 15/02/2008 17:47:21
Originally by: Halander Meo
1. Supply and demand isn't the only factor that determines ship prices. There is also mineral cost. Lower the mineral cost, ship prices will drop.
Youre argument fails.
No, because people will still buy them at the old price because its worth that old price. Which is why the prices ARE at the price they are now, because the ship in question is WORTH that amount of iskies.
Originally by: Halander Meo
2. The general consensus is that AFs need some attention. CCP is already working on it.
What consensus? AFs have all the attention they need, thats like saying "The CNR needs more attention, CCP is already working on it." Honestly, everyone i know knows what an AF can do, and wants one sometime down the road. They also know what a CNR can do, and wants one sometime down the road.
Youre argument fails.
Originally by: Halander Meo
3. As it stands right now, cruisers and AFs fill a similar role, so, functionally, they are more like red apples and crab apples.
Uhhh, no. Cruisers aren't really used in PvP (im assuming you're talking about the T1 variety)...while AFs are useful. AFs are faster, do the same...if not more damage, and look like a t1 frigate. So the miner or whatever you're trying to kill will be all like "lulz a frigate" and then die. Also, AF's can do some types of complexes that cruisers cannont.
Youre argument fails.
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CEO - Crimson Rebellion
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.15 17:54:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 15/02/2008 17:54:21
oops error
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.15 18:00:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 15/02/2008 18:03:45
Originally by: Arazel Chainfire
shhh - stop arguing. If they make the AF cheaper it means that its easier to replace them if someone pops you :P
And plus... who wouldn't want a cheaper ship?
On a more serious note... it would be better if they got a real fourth bonus...
-Arazel
I've thought about not arguing against people who ask for boosts for ships I like and think work just fine (like Assault Ships, Stealth Bombers and Destroyers) because damn it would be nice to have ships I like flying being more powerful. But I just can't help myself... 
Either way, with tech 2 ships I just don't think it's that easy for CCP to manipulate the market prices. Maybe if invention on their blueprints was tweaked a bit, that might do it.
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Brutoth Tain
Independant Recon and Intelligence Agency
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Posted - 2008.02.15 18:02:00 -
[13]
The Harpys unusual in as much as its actually better than its big brother the the Moa and that's in sniper and blaster variant, hopefully that will change when the Moa gets its extra turret.
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Maverick 52
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Posted - 2008.02.15 18:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: ceyriot
Uhhh, no. Cruisers aren't really used in PvP
Wrong. Just cruise the forums and you'll see how many people use a cruiser for pirating. Not to mention the E-War cruisers that are cheap and effective for gang combat.
Originally by: ceyriot
AFs are useful.
Correct. About as useful as a cruiser.
Originally by: ceyriot
AFs are faster, do the same...if not more damage
Mostly Wrong. In general, AF's are similar in speed to cruisers. Some AF's are faster, some are slower. Some AF's do more damage, most do less damage than cruisers. Lets not forget tank either, as only a few AF's can put up a better tank than a cruiser.
Originally by: ceyriot
...and look like a t1 frigate. So the miner or whatever you're trying to kill will be all like "lulz a frigate" and then die.
Useful if your can flipping in high sec, in low sec they just run if anything shows up.
Originally by: ceyriot
Also, AF's can do some types of complexes that cruisers cannont.
So can Battlecruisers.
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Haradgrim
The Wild Bunch
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.02.15 18:42:00 -
[15]
I'm starting to feel like a broken record because I post this in every AF thread (...why do i bother...oh yeah, bored at work  ), AFs are very useful:
Firstly, they are cheap, if you don't think they are cheap, you should be flying t1 anyhow.
Second they do alot of dps for their size and have a signal resolution thats so high you can pretty much insta-lock anything.
That combined with the fact that they are actually pretty easy to fit, have a tank that will allow you to survive 1-3 volleys from pretty much anything, and the above mentioned strengths = A pretty nice, and useful (though niche oriented) ship that is more affordable then any other t2 combat ship (if you factor in the fittings).
Originally by: CCP Oveur
...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Corstaad
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Posted - 2008.02.15 18:45:00 -
[16]
There's a reason you sound like a broken record everything you want can be done much better in a inty. You keep trying to be some kind of AF fanboy.
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Haradgrim
The Wild Bunch
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.02.15 18:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Corstaad
There's a reason you sound like a broken record everything you want can be done much better in a inty. You keep trying to be some kind of AF fanboy.
The Irony: I primarily fly inties.
However, if a gang I was in did not have a bubbler of any kind online, I would happily jump in a AF, get someone to remote sensor boost me and tackle like a pr0.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.15 19:04:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Mahn AlNouhm on 15/02/2008 19:04:09
From the live dev blog in December:
"Mindstar: Boost patch... I'm looking forward to it. Alright, Where are we up to? Assault frigates, they don't really have a role. Is there anything in store for them?
Zulupark: Boost patch
Hammerhead: Yep, boost patch definately. This is the thing we want to look at: ships that need a role, ships that have kinda left behind, things that are underutilized and give things love.
Zulupark: We kinda feel that the assault frigates have kinda dropped between the *****s as regards to role and kinda been left behind with changes to everything else. I think that's something we want to look into. Both specific assault frigates and maybe just generic role. But so far ... we're just looking into."
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Corstaad
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Posted - 2008.02.15 20:43:00 -
[19]
Then you don't fly them enuff then. They have agility, mass, and missing T1 bonus's problem. Of course your remote boosted ship has a great lock time  .
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Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.15 21:03:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Corstaad
Then you don't fly them enuff then. They have agility, mass, and missing T1 bonus's problem. Of course your remote boosted ship has a great lock time .
AF's have all the drawbacks of cruisers and frigates.
Cruiser agility and speed.
Frigate shield, armor, PG and CPU.
Not to mention they are the only tech 2 ship with 3 bonuses instead of 4.
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Haradgrim
The Wild Bunch
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.02.15 21:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Corstaad
Then you don't fly them enuff then. They have agility, mass, and missing T1 bonus's problem. Of course your remote boosted ship has a great lock time .
The boost is just a catch-all, still like having the AF incase I need to jump through a gate and lock, etc. Also, don't discount an AFs tanking ability, its quite useful against drones (especially in cases where the drone ship can't lock you due to Ewar, etc, but the drones are agro). Anyhow, you don't have to agree, but feel free to bring you inty by when I have my Harpy out.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Drakarian
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:05:00 -
[22]
ccp can't 'make something cheaper' in a player driven market. If you want them to be cheaper, stop buying them and the prices will naturally fall.
PS - they are already quite cheap, generally around half the price of a cruiser.
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echohead
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:13:00 -
[23]
I am horrified by the number of threads asking for ship changes. One of my favorite things about this game is the fact that some ships just do not stack up well against other ships.
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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Drakarian
ccp can't 'make something cheaper' in a player driven market. If you want them to be cheaper, stop buying them and the prices will naturally fall.
PS - they are already quite cheap, generally around half the price of a cruiser.
Yes, they absolutely can. Sure, the change wouldn't be instantaneous, but there is no question that CCP can indirectly affect the prices on the market.
And, secondly, you're mad. If they were half the cost of a t1 cruiser, I never would have posted in the first place.
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Batelle
HOMELESS.
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:21:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Drakarian
PS - they are already quite cheap, generally around half the price of a cruiser.
If you mean to say, twice as expensive as a cruiser... then yes.
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San Rintu
Asshats and Alcoholics
Minuit.
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:24:00 -
[26]
Where do you buy cruisers for 20mil? I want to come flood that region with them if you are...
AF prices have reduced quite dramatically over the past year as with most other items. Their cost certainly doesn't warrant their effectiveness at the moment. I will be extraordinarily interested to see what CCP cook up for them in the coming months, they are a fun shp to fly but simply do not live up to the expectation you initially have of them.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Batelle
HOMELESS.
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:29:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Batelle on 15/02/2008 23:29:24
They're cheap enough at the current prices though. I'd like to see them get another damage bonus, and/or maybe some mass reduction. Bonus to afterburner speed would be really nice too. Haha can you imagine an ishkur with both the 5m3 dronebay bonus AND a drone hp/damage bonus?
in short, make them more useful, not cheaper.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm
Originally by: Drakarian
ccp can't 'make something cheaper' in a player driven market. If you want them to be cheaper, stop buying them and the prices will naturally fall.
PS - they are already quite cheap, generally around half the price of a cruiser.
Yes, they absolutely can. Sure, the change wouldn't be instantaneous, but there is no question that CCP can indirectly affect the prices on the market.
And, secondly, you're mad. If they were half the cost of a t1 cruiser, I never would have posted in the first place.
They can with tech 1 ships in empire, because they tend to sell right about at lowest production cost.
But with tech 2 ships production cost is a small portion of the price. Especially so for tech 2 BPO owners. That's why insurance on most tech 2 ships doesn't work so well. Insurance payout is based on production cost, and the market prices are so much higher than that.
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Corstaad
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:42:00 -
[29]
Well the reason people are asking for all these changes is because next patch is suppose to be about looking into outdated ships . I really don't want anything extreme I just want it to fly like its T1 ship which I really enjoy. These ships don't warping in/warp out like a frig so it loses its frig advantage. This isn't some whine thread about missles,amarr,etc its pointing out the flaws in the ship in hopes there looked at.
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Maverick 52
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Posted - 2008.02.15 23:53:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Haradgrim
Firstly, they are cheap, if you don't think they are cheap, you should be flying t1 anyhow.
Price is relative like alot of stuff in eve. The key issue with AF's is performance vs. cost. Buy a cruiser and you similar performance for less cost. Are there exceptions to that? Yes, however in every situation where a AF will outperform the cruiser, there is a better alternative than using a AF. I don't know if you like spending more money than you have to, but I don't.
Originally by: Haradgrim
Second they do alot of dps for their size and have a signal resolution thats so high you can pretty much insta-lock anything.
The same thing can be said for a Taranis or Crusader.
Originally by: Haradgrim
...is more affordable then any other t2 combat ship (if you factor in the fittings).
Interceptor will cost the same if t2 fitted, and is generally a better option.
Originally by: Haradgrim
However, if a gang I was in did not have a bubbler of any kind online, I would happily jump in a AF, get someone to remote sensor boost me and tackle like a pr0.
Then your gang is gonna get ****ed you didn't bring a tackler Inty. Better scan resolution, quick enough to keep up with other ships and hold a point.
Originally by: Haradgrim
...feel free to bring you inty by when I have my Harpy out.
Feel free to bring your Harpy around...alot of ships. The fun thing about eve is you can counter every ship in the game with another ship. Your Harpy may be a uber ceptor killer, however AF's in general need to have their roles boosted.
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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.16 00:49:00 -
[31]
Thank you. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. :)
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.02.16 01:06:00 -
[32]
The only reason the Hawk even sells is because looks so damn cool. 
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.16 01:15:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Maverick 52
a tackler Inty. Better scan resolution,
Not by much. Assault ships have pretty good scan resolutions. Also, unlike interceptors they can get into webbing range and web a bigger ship, and still survive.
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Maverick 52
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Posted - 2008.02.16 07:57:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Maverick 52
a tackler Inty. Better scan resolution,
Not by much. Assault ships have pretty good scan resolutions. Also, unlike interceptors they can get into webbing range and web a bigger ship, and still survive.
Depending how your Inty is setup, you can still get in web range of battleship sized ships and survive. You just wont be using that MWD. But again, only a handful of large vessels need to be webbed before the whole gang shows up, which is why the Inty still will be a better overall choice for gang PvP.
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Julius Romanus
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.02.16 08:41:00 -
[35]
Af's have been tossed back and forth on the forum for ages. The fix starts with matching mass to the t1 hull. This will bring speeds back up to frigate levels, and give AF's a lot more agility than a cruiser.
The next step is making the resist bonus innate, all t2 ships get 4 bonuses, AF's deserve no less. In almost every case this bonus should be a damage or tank bonus. An assault ship should spit slightly less DPS than a gank cruiser, or tank slightly worse on paper than a tank cruiser, while providing much better mobility and performance against small ships.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.02.16 11:21:00 -
[36]
Originally by: ceyriot
Uhhh, no. Cruisers aren't really used in PvP (im assuming you're talking about the T1 variety)...while AFs are useful. AFs are faster, do the same...if not more damage, and look like a t1 frigate. So the miner or whatever you're trying to kill will be all like "lulz a frigate" and then die. Also, AF's can do some types of complexes that cruisers cannont.
Youre argument fails.
T1 cruisers aren't used in PvP?
Er, AFs are faster? Most AFs have about 10m/s advantage over cruisers except in case of the jaguar, and stupid destroyers align faster then they do.
AFs do same/more damage? (Yeah, a Jaguar with a sensible fit will do something in the 140 DPS region, a Rupture will do something over 300, outdamaging it by more then double).
Please don't argue that AFs are worth the ISK they cost, they aren't. They're for frig enthusiasts who like flying them, and are quite definitely not a cost-effective ship in any respect.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Tozz
Velvet Underground Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.16 12:37:00 -
[37]
Give AFs their 2nd t1 bonus!
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