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The bumping Desynch and its Fix

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DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.02.16 16:20:00 - [1] As any mach pilot will tell you, bumping a ship off a gate or station will cause you to become desynched. I have even had instances where I would miss a bump not making contact, and still become desynched. This particular little gem happened to me today in Jan. I was engaging (or trying to) a group of flashy reds that like to play the dock undock game even with 9 to 1 odds. (The Guristas Associates) While trying to bump them off the station I had become desynched, and we all know that when it happens you dont really know it until its almost too late. So I decided that I had had enough of their hide and go seek, I decided to warp away to the Nalvula gate but still had lock, and was being shot at while I was in warp and the distance meter went to 65AU. So I tried to rewarp, I tried to click on the station and dock, I tried to jump through the gate I thought I was on. So while my armor tank was holding VERY easily I logged off, and back on immediately. When I loaded I was under the station with the speed bar stuck in "warp". You know where you cant make it stop. Anyways, Again I began to try options. Warp, dock (since aggression was over), fight back, run with the MWD. Nothing worked. So I was forced to try to log again. This time when I logged back in I was coming out of warp at a random safe spot. So my cheapy mach was saved, but Im not completely sure about how or why. Long story Short - What we know - high speeds and bumping cause desynch, YES WE KNOW THIS we testes it on the test server. Cough CCP How to fix it - nothing seems to work except to log out and back in several times. This did work, but sometimes you'll be dead long before you can accomplish this. I know the niche of the machariel is to bump people or have a wicked awesome tank and gank. However if you choose to bump cowards away from the station, be ready to become desynched. Its a risk, but sometimes a necessary one. I hope CCP will look into the bump desynch and fix it, unlike the petition response of go *uck yourself. Have fun and be aware! 8) WildCat
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.16 16:40:00 - [2] Edited by: Scavok on 16/02/2008 16:41:21 If you jump to a cyno or warp to the same point with more than 10 capitals, it's a pretty safe assumption that probably half of them will be somewhere else on the server than their screen tells them. Whenever you siege a POS with 20-30 capitals, you're likely to have at least 2 people become unknowingly stuck on each other. When trying to warp out, on their screens they'll be fully up to speed and they'll warp away, but they're actually stuck on somebody else and will have to relog. Being left alone at a hostile POS and relogging while aggressed are two things you pretty much always want to avoid while in a capital. This isn't something that happens on occasion; it happens nearly every single time capitals bump each other. It's extremely poor quality. Any other multiplayer game will update the player's position from the server on occasion (rubber banding if they're out of synch), instead of relying entirely on the client.
reg keeper The JORG Corporation Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:15:00 - [3] Hey Wildcat I feel your pain I was desynched today when I was rammed at high speed by a hostile force in m-md. Resulting in me flying off at a great rate of knot's with nothing responding to what ever click's I tried to do. Gm response to a stuck petion was relog and see if you were lucky and redocked. Of course the forces of the v alliance had destroyed my ship at that point. After 5 relog attempts I managed to enter the game to be in a pod inside teh station. Need for speed never really happened all that did happen was more content to a over loaded server and more frequent Desynch and node blow outs. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.16 17:15:00 - [4] I know that at some point in the past, the desynch problem got much worse for a while, then it was fixed. Perhaps it wasn't fixed completely, but the amount of desynch events has reduced dramatically. One of the simplest and most sure ways of repeating desynch bug is like this: Fly in space with MWD. Quickly click on the MWD activation icon several times in a row so that it activates and then de-activates. If you repeat this several times, you should see that your client says the MWD is switching off (blinking red) but the server keeps MWD running for additional cycles until you run out of cap or warp. I can always repeat this bug, 99%. It is not the same thing as desynch while bumping, but they may be related on some fundamental level. It may be necessary to have ping times over 200 ms for desynch tests. Just a wild guess.
Cape Fear PRIMOS LOCOS The Red Skull	Posted - 2008.02.16 18:29:00 - [5] As this is pointed out to everyone that Desync has become an issue. My question would be is when is CCP going to step in and accept this as there issue and responsibility. They need to reimburse players whom have desynced and loss ship due to server related issues I personally as a customer surely dont expect to have game mechanic errors to cause my loss. I have found out the hard way that CCP will not replace ships due to this error as they state they cannot prove a desync, this coming from the top GM. To my knowledge Desync is game mechanic issue and reimbursment is possible. Ive lost alot due to this issue and as stated "We are constantly improving our logs and try to have them cover as much as we possibly can but we can never log everything and desync is one of those things. It's impossible to properly log desync." by a Lead GM, and not once have ive ever been reimbursed for anything. Here is proof of my case. Im sitting in space for 10-20 minutes shooting at a carrier. As soon as i came to be a pointless situation I disengaged as a Typhoon came out and started ramming me. Everyone kept telling me to get closer to station get closer to station so I did even tho it stated I was @ 0m. I smack the station with the front and back of the ship still at 0m and they kept telling me I was not. Here are images showing that I was these are not altered in any shape or form. http://primoslocos.com/files/pictures/2008.01.21.02.58.04.jpg http://primoslocos.com/files/pictures/2008.01.21.02.59.03.jpg http://primoslocos.com/files/pictures/2008.01.21.03.01.05.jpg http://primoslocos.com/files/pictures/2008.01.21.03.02.28.jpg http://primoslocos.com/files/pictures/2008.01.21.03.03.35.jpg http://primoslocos.com/files/pictures/2008.01.21.03.03.45.jpg http://primoslocos.com/files/pictures/2008.01.21.03.04.02.jpg http://primoslocos.com/files/pictures/2008.01.21.03.04.11.jpg http://primoslocos.com/files/pictures/2008.01.21.03.04.15.jpg Also note my response from CCP "I can very well understand your frustration over this. It's a big loss and losing anything to bugs or errors is always upsetting. We're still going to have to decline your reimbursement claim as our server side logs do not cover this." This is a burden to alot of people and reimbursment should be immediately given. Sorry I cannot show the names of the GMs as I believe that it would brake 1 of there 20 thousand policies. CCP you need to take better care of your customers you get alot of business from word of mouth!
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.16 18:41:00 - [6] Sollution to the problem is simple, remove bumping all together, it's silly that a BS or smaller shuld even make a noticable differance to a cap ship, not to mention drones. And most cap pilots knows that the bumping is one of the primary reasons for desync, combine that with lag which is another reson for it and u'r fairly sure to be desynced, only question is when CCP will realise that removing bumping is the best way to go if only temporaraly untill a viable sollution can be reworked. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE is designed to be a dark and harsh world
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:08:00 - [7] Remove all collision detection from this game, so you dont get bumped by mwding into a drone. Then make it that undocking from station is the same as jumping though a gate. You land 15km in random direction of station cloaked and invurnerable untill you make a move, like the gate cloak. -- Billion Isk Mission
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Bozse Sollution to the problem is simple, remove bumping all together, it's silly that a BS or smaller shuld even make a noticable differance to a cap ship, not to mention drones. And most cap pilots knows that the bumping is one of the primary reasons for desync, combine that with lag which is another reson for it and u'r fairly sure to be desynced, only question is when CCP will realise that removing bumping is the best way to go if only temporaraly untill a viable sollution can be reworked. Hmmm, you want to remove all bumping: What will happen, when you fly against any other ship or when you fly against any station or stargate? Do you want to fly THROUGH other objects?
Cape Fear PRIMOS LOCOS The Red Skull	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:38:00 - [9] Its not bumping in general. Bumbping plays 2 sides good and bad. Desync is the major issue at hand ive never had it happen to me as much lately but now it has become more intesified. For along time ghost ships where a myth but in my location ***- ive already seen 2 lasting until after server reboot. My statement was more towards CCP taking more responsability for there game mechanics malfunctioning. People are loosing ships to this and there is nothing that they can do to avoid it. Here is also another way of putting it. Exploit = Desync, Definition; using another ship in a manner to force another ship by physically hitting him causing a desync to happen redering his ship inoperatable to function in a battle. To me its an Exploit that CCP is letting happen if its not an exploit now then use it to your fullest potential ram them into a station and make them desync then kill them :) Thanks for allowing this CCP. If CCP chooses not to let this happen then they need to start reimbursing the petitions that have ships that have been desynced.
Ash Vincetti Decorum Inc	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Helison Hmmm, you want to remove all bumping: What will happen, when you fly against any other ship or when you fly against any station or stargate? Do you want to fly THROUGH other objects? If the options are A) Desynch or b) Fly through the object, I'll take b) every time. The "Show up cloaked for 30 seconds in a random spot" option already covers the station camp situations more than adequately. ----- free bree!
Sky Marshal Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.02.16 19:44:00 - [11] Originally by: Ephemeron I know that at some point in the past, the desynch problem got much worse for a while, then it was fixed. Perhaps it wasn't fixed completely, but the amount of desynch events has reduced dramatically. Honestly, I think that it is worse since Trinity, but desyncs has been upgraded to a new version not easily detectable sometimes. This is not the first time that I thank in a gate battle that I was at jumprange, with no aggro (guns refused to shoot !) but jump don't respond... Maybe that the ennemy support bumped me off-range, but I bumped the gate in begin so desync ? In the worse desync situation I ever see, I was in visual near a station of the system A, but in fact I jumped in the system B since a while At least in Revelations II, the ship responded well in a moment and can instantly do nothing a second after, so you knew immediatly that you was desynched. Since Trinity, I never know if all is OK or not. _______ 16/20 Dragon : ½ Great Game + 14/20 Revelations : ½ Desyncs... + 11/20 Trinity : ½ BBSOD, Bugs, Desyncs, F*** Nerfs + 10/20 v1.1 : ½ [...] + EXP shield nerf + CCP, you are tiring.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.16 20:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Lord WarATron Remove all collision detection from this game, so you dont get bumped by mwding into a drone. Then make it that undocking from station is the same as jumping though a gate. You land 15km in random direction of station cloaked and invurnerable untill you make a move, like the gate cloak. Seem the best solution. Collision detection was put in game to add realism, but it is used as a broken and unrealistic game mechanic and at the same time it increase chances of desync. So removing it and making ships and drones immaterial like the cans and corpses could be the right solution. The OP want the advantages of bumping other people, but don't want the consequences (desync). I doubt that the desync problem could easily be resolved, but removing collisions could reduce it.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.16 21:38:00 - [13] Removing bumping would be a major nerf to PvP. Game bugs should never be solved by removing game features that they effect. Game bugs should be solved the proper way. No more nerfing PvP
Saju Somtaaw Gallente Kiowa Tribe Evolution Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.16 22:02:00 - [14] A solution might be that the ships move proportional to their respective agility. For example a frigate might go 5km out of its way while a capital would continue on it's marry way with no change because of the huge difference in agility. Homeworld Vet/Refugee
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.16 22:13:00 - [15] My favorite part in these threads is that over half the people have no idea why their "OMG SO SIMPLE" fix doesn't work, because they don't understand what a desync is. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.16 22:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Ephemeron Game bugs should never be solved by removing game features that they effect. Game bugs should be solved the proper way. Right Originally by: Ephemeron Removing bumping would be a major nerf to PvP. Wrong If PvP depend on a feature where a small mass ship can move a large mass ship without suffering any damage PvP mechanic is broken. In a realistic situation the larger ship would move a little in the attempt to avoid the collision, would not succeed (as his agility is lower) and both would suffer damage, whit the smaller ship probably getting destroyed and the larger ship suffering variable damage depending on several factors. It is a form of kamikaze attack but it must not be at 0 cost for the attacker.
Bozse Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.16 23:10:00 - [17] Edited by: Bozse on 16/02/2008 23:14:49 Originally by: Helison Hmmm, you want to remove all bumping: What will happen, when you fly against any other ship or when you fly against any station or stargate? Do you want to fly THROUGH other objects? Stations and any other static object would be no reason to remove bumping from, other ships and drones is an issue though, and for the sake of a more working gamplay i would prefer going throu other ships and drones then beeing desynced or bumped in a MS to give time for a dictor / HiD to warp in. Originally by: Ephemeron Removing bumping would be a major nerf to PvP. Game bugs should never be solved by removing game features that they effect. Game bugs should be solved the proper way. No more nerfing PvP Bumping isn't a intended PvP feature to begin with, it's something that is beeing used to bypass intended features though like undocking invulnrability Super Cap / Cap ship warp / movement. A ship BS sized or less bumping in to my MS with full mwd speed bypassing my EW immunity is not only bypassing a feature it's ridiculous as the ship should expload on impact. Edit: Not to mention how much this probably would help server load as alot of collition checks would be removed. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE is designed to be a dark and harsh world
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.17 01:00:00 - [18] Bumping may not be intended feature, it is not very realistic, but it is very useful in specific situations. It is fun, it modifies the dynamics of on-gate and on-station PvP in a really good way. "Good" from the perspective of game theory. The way it forces people to behave and move their ships to account for incoming bump attack or to execute bump attack is adding to tactical situations of pvp. You may not like it, but removing a game feature is a nerf to PvP by definition. Any removal of a game feature that is being used is a nerf. You are free to argue for the bumping PvP nerf, but you can't deny that you are asking for a nerf.
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2008.02.17 01:31:00 - [19] Originally by: Bozse Bumping isn't a intended PvP feature to begin with, it's something that is beeing used to bypass intended features though like undocking invulnrability Super Cap / Cap ship warp / movement. A ship BS sized or less bumping in to my MS with full mwd speed bypassing my EW immunity is not only bypassing a feature it's ridiculous as the ship should expload on impact. Actually there is a quite famous CCP post before HICs came out where they said that the best way to kill a MS in low sec would be to bump it repeatedly since there is no other way to pin it down. That statement pretty much gave the thumbs up to bumping as a legit combat mechanic. I could easily argue that station-hugging is bypassing a feature and not intended, but we are just going to go in circles. Bumping is a pretty fun part of the game to be honest, would be sad to see it go.
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.02.17 02:12:00 - [20] In reply to bumping and pvp..... I hate it personally. I continually have to put a nanoed multi billion isk ship into web range of ships 1/1000th the cost. HOWEVER!!!!!!! When you continually have so called "pvp'ers" who hug stations and gates and will not engage you unless they know they can redock, "thanks CCP for HP Buff". Then nothing gives me more pleasure than to wipe the silly grin off there dock, undock asses as they fly 50km off the station to be killed! If you take away the bumping ability you better damn well take away the ability to station and gate hug! WildCat
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.17 13:30:00 - [21] Originally by: DHB WildCat In reply to bumping and pvp..... I hate it personally. I continually have to put a nanoed multi billion isk ship into web range of ships 1/1000th the cost. HOWEVER!!!!!!! When you continually have so called "pvp'ers" who hug stations and gates and will not engage you unless they know they can redock, "thanks CCP for HP Buff". Then nothing gives me more pleasure than to wipe the silly grin off there dock, undock asses as they fly 50km off the station to be killed! If you take away the bumping ability you better damn well take away the ability to station and gate hug! WildCat It seem it has already removed on Sisi as the ship are fired out of station to the limits of docking range. It depend if it will make it to Tranquility. In every instance if docking/undocking games are unacceptable, station camping knowing that the target can't look outside of the station before undocking is equally lame. "I want my lame tactic because other lame tactics exist" isn't exactly a great statement.
Frug True Foundation R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.02.17 14:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Venkul Mul In every instance if docking/undocking games are unacceptable, station camping knowing that the target can't look outside of the station before undocking is equally lame. "I want my lame tactic because other lame tactics exist" isn't exactly a great statement. Exactly. Simply taking away the ability for people inside the station to even see what's outside of the station is equally lame. So then instead of undocking and redocking, they're never going to undock at all until you leave local. Or alt scout you, which is also lame. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.17 14:39:00 - [23] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 17/02/2008 14:41:37 Originally by: Frug Exactly. Simply taking away the ability for people inside the station to even see what's outside of the station is equally lame. So then instead of undocking and redocking, they're never going to undock at all until you leave local. Or alt scout you, which is also lame. So you think not being able to see whats on the other side of the gate is lame? With station - you have local - if you undock you concent to pvp - end of story. If you jump though gate - you concent to getting ganked if there is a camp or cloaking camp on other side - end of story. Lame is something else. Lame is using docking and undocking as invulnerbility exploit. Thats all it is. -- Billion Isk Mission
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.17 14:57:00 - [24] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 17/02/2008 14:41:37 Originally by: Frug Exactly. Simply taking away the ability for people inside the station to even see what's outside of the station is equally lame. So then instead of undocking and redocking, they're never going to undock at all until you leave local. Or alt scout you, which is also lame. So you think not being able to see whats on the other side of the gate is lame? Not being able to see what's on the other side of the game is reasonable to some extent - it's a large distance away. Not being able to look what's outside a station is just silly. Quote: With station - you have local - if you undock you concent to pvp - end of story. Have fun with the lame metagaming that it will cause then: people undocking in noobcorp alts to scout. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention Reavers.	Posted - 2008.02.17 19:04:00 - [25] Undock in a shuttle and you'll get a good look at anything outside, practically zero risk getting caught before you get to warp and then come back to the station to get the ship you want to fly. And bumping should stay, desynch should be fixed properly if possible. --- CEO
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.17 19:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Jin Entres Undock in a shuttle and you'll get a good look at anything outside, practically zero risk getting caught before you get to warp and then come back to the station to get the ship you want to fly. You not going to warp anywhere with dictors and large/medium bubbles
Paul Castrin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.17 20:20:00 - [27] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 17/02/2008 14:41:37 Originally by: Frug Exactly. Simply taking away the ability for people inside the station to even see what's outside of the station is equally lame. So then instead of undocking and redocking, they're never going to undock at all until you leave local. Or alt scout you, which is also lame. So you think not being able to see whats on the other side of the gate is lame? Where did he use the word "gate" or imply that being able to see who/what is outside a station, in normal space, well within the range of any radar/lidar/magnetic sensor system is the same as seeing who is light years away in another star system? Stop throwing up red herrings. Simple fix is to increase the undocking range to 3-5k but at the SAME TIME allow an over view like function in station so you can see threats just out side your docking ring. It would eliminate the need for bumping (which is unrealistic imho and shouldn't be in the game) while adding realism to the game in that you can now look out a f'ing window. A collision system in EVE would be even better but we all know that eventually someone would figure out a way to exploit it thus why there is none currently. Pease.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.18 11:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Paul Castrin Simple fix is to increase the undocking range to 3-5k but at the SAME TIME allow an over view like function in station so you can see threats just out side your docking ring. It would eliminate the need for bumping (which is unrealistic imho and shouldn't be in the game) while adding realism to the game in that you can now look out a f'ing window. I would welcome it if they changed the undocking procedure so that it switches to an in-ship view of the station surroundings first (with HUD, Overview and all that, but not your own ship, in its place the station) while you are still technically docked. When everything has loaded and you saw that it is clear, you can press the "undock" button at the "selected item" window. Otherwise you can press "view station" and get the in-station view again. This will eliminate all the stupid black screen undocking deaths and the problems with not being able to see what's outside the station (which is just silly). EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.02.18 12:34:00 - [29] Your point about desynch would normaly be one i would support you on. however Your endless orange boring drones about how uber you are, how risch you are, how brave you are, and how you singlehandledly take out 90 man gank fleets kind of detracts from this. Learn some humility and you might just attain some of the respect you crave. SKUNK SKUNK

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