Originally by: fightnkill

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After BOB loses Delve and uses up most of their iskies, there won't be anyone that will be able to supply enuff iskies to fuel BoB's warmachine.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Originally by: fightnkill

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After BOB loses Delve and uses up most of their iskies, there won't be anyone that will be able to supply enuff iskies to fuel BoB's warmachine.

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Hi mr 'Blue.' corp member. Im telling your arch enemy corp, 'Red.' that. They will give give you and your corpmates a permanent wardec now until the end of time.

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Originally by: Pwnomus Maximus

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If i were BoB diplos i'd be cozying up to Tri right now as a new ally. After the fall of Delve where would they go? Well Branch is a pretty weak area atm and pretty far from the RSF heavy hitters and with Tri as an allied neighbor, well holy hell good morning to the north!

I don't know any of this ofc, but that's what i'd try and orchestrate :) We'll see.

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Originally by: Blooded Heromy

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lets do the things in the right line, first you gotta remove us from delve, then we can start threat like this

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 18/02/2008 00:41:37
I hear they have shifted their isk making to empire so maybe they will just become uber spec'd trouble shooters and fleet killers around eve.

Spending their time kicking the crap out of the members of the coalition after they split up and go home maybe a good bit of fun for a year or three.

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Quote:

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KOS, because they are used to it

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Originally by: fightnkill

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After BOB loses Delve and uses up most of their iskies, there won't be anyone that will be able to supply enuff iskies to fuel BoB's warmachine.

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Originally by: Nick Curso

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I can confirm i will nap first because im am lazy.

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Originally by: The Hooch

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You don't even a small clue about just how deep those pockets are, if BoB lost every POS they have it would not even begin to touch them in the isk department.

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Originally by: Fightnkill

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After BOB loses Delve and uses up most of their iskies, there won't be anyone that will be able to supply enuff iskies to fuel BoB's warmachine. Razz

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Originally by: Tilta

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Originally by: The Hooch

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You don't even a small clue about just how deep those pockets are, if BoB lost every POS they have it would not even begin to touch them in the isk department.

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I think you both underestimate how much corp/alliance isk a war of this magnitude burns and overestimate the wealth and earning potential of most people regularly participating in frontline combat.

People generally don't burn their earning assets, since (aside from the starbase ones) they're pretty darn portable.

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Originally by: fugazii

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Its easy to say that, but unfortunately the signs point the other way. Bobs attendance is higher than ever, the ships theyre flying and the mods on them are relatively consistent with what was seen in the beginning of the war, more and more super caps are being built and used. None of this is signs of an alliance or players that are running out of isk.

Youve got to remember that a overwhelming majority of bob's members are very old players,...ones with multiple chara's outside of the alliance. People who over years of playing have accumulated mass amounts of wealth. Coupled with(and i know you hate this) a positive k/d ratio makes for the average bob player unable to run out of isk. If theyre losing 1 bs for every 10 killed(<-ratio is only example), and theyre able to collect loot on just a couple of those bs killed it will more then enough pay for an insured bs loss.

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Originally by: Orangir

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It's mostly irrelevant though, BoB can throw as much isk into this meatgrinder as they want, but unless they start pushing back and effectively countering attacks more than once or twice in a row, they're still going to be forced into NPC stations and griefed endlessly by filled factory slots and constant camps. I guess that's what they've been planning for though.

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Originally by: Orangir

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They're not flying what they were at the beginning of the war, but other than that you're mostly right.

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Originally by: thoth foc

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Originally by: Orangir

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It's mostly irrelevant though, BoB can throw as much isk into this meatgrinder as they want, but unless they start pushing back and effectively countering attacks more than once or twice in a row, they're still going to be forced into NPC stations and griefed endlessly by filled factory slots and constant camps. I guess that's what they've been planning for though.

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I think the question you should be asking yourself is, what does it matter if BOB get pushed into NPC stations.. While, it might be a something to spam the forums with, it makes little actual difference ingame..

Saying "they planned to be pushed into NPC stations" is just a bad attempt at propaganda, when a more realistic view is they said "who cares if we are pushed into NPC stations"

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Now you might not care about, but I am pretty sure that a year ago, BoB pilots would be pretty ****ed if Molly suggested they'd be living in NPC stations in any forseeable future. But I guess thats what happens when you're in the process of losing a war, it starts a shift in personal expectations until you get to a point where you can feel happy again about them.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Now you might not care about, but I am pretty sure that a year ago, BoB pilots would be pretty ****ed if Molly suggested they'd be living in NPC stations in any forseeable future. But I guess thats what happens when you're in the process of losing a war, it starts a shift in personal expectations until you get to a point where you can feel happy again about them.

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Originally by: Baxalusx

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Edit: In light of Avon's last post, the issue may simply be that you don't understand the psychological impact of territorial or other "communal" property for a social group.

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Originally by: Baxalusx

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Your membership does. Some of them are more vocal than others, but everyone who's been part of defeating an alliance knows this: Almost every defeated alliance before you has claimed they would simply move into NPC stations unharmed, or would "shed the fat" and only keep their core, with which they would rebuild, once they lost their 0.0 holdings. Every one of these alliances were wrong.

You have a large number of new members that have never been part of killing an alliance, because BoB hasn't really killed anyone significant since the War started, so they don't know this first hand yet, and that probably explains why only GBC forum figureheads and people who joined BoB during the War appear to be sold on this particular line.

Edit: In light of Avon's last post, the issue may simply be that you don't understand the psychological impact of territorial or other "communal" property for a social group.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Now you might not care about, but I am pretty sure that a year ago, BoB pilots would be pretty ****ed if Molly suggested they'd be living in NPC stations in any forseeable future. But I guess thats what happens when you're in the process of losing a war, it starts a shift in personal expectations until you get to a point where you can feel happy again about them.

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Originally by: Avon

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Edited by: Avon on 18/02/2008 10:19:54

Originally by: Baxalusx

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Edit: In light of Avon's last post, the issue may simply be that you don't understand the psychological impact of territorial or other "communal" property for a social group.

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I think it might be the other way around tbh.
If you think what binds BoB is territory you might be looking at things from the wrong angle; the gains grew from the bonds.

Added: And I can't believe I am lecturing a Goon on that, seriously.

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Originally by: gaaksel

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Personally the first thing i do after the war comes to an end is getting into serious diplomatic talks with the entitiy called "wife".

The only impact this war had on me personally so far has been said diplomatic relationships to the above entity. And i can confirm that "wife" is clearly more frightening than the whole of eve combined :).

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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I hear they have shifted their isk making to empire so maybe they will just become uber spec'd trouble shooters and fleet killers around eve.

Spending their time kicking the crap out of the members of the coalition after they split up and go home maybe a good bit of fun for a year or three.

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Originally by: Devian 666

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I'm voting HEY LISTEN off the island. Bring back Homo Erectus he's entertaining. Never seen anyone from BoB spam local like him.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Now you might not care about, but I am pretty sure that a year ago, BoB pilots would be pretty ****ed if Molly suggested they'd be living in NPC stations in any forseeable future. But I guess thats what happens when you're in the process of losing a war, it starts a shift in personal expectations until you get to a point where you can feel happy again about them.

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Originally by: Avaricia

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look a goon lol

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Originally by: Avon

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Edited by: Avon on 18/02/2008 10:19:54

Originally by: Baxalusx

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Edit: In light of Avon's last post, the issue may simply be that you don't understand the psychological impact of territorial or other "communal" property for a social group.

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I think it might be the other way around tbh.
If you think what binds BoB is territory you might be looking at things from the wrong angle; the gains grew from the bonds.

Added: And I can't believe I am lecturing a Goon on that, seriously.

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Originally by: Tilta

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Originally by: The Hooch

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You don't even a small clue about just how deep those pockets are, if BoB lost every POS they have it would not even begin to touch them in the isk department.

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I think you both underestimate how much corp/alliance isk a war of this magnitude burns and overestimate the wealth and earning potential of most people regularly participating in frontline combat.

People generally don't burn their earning assets, since (aside from the starbase ones) they're pretty darn portable.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Originally by: Tilta

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Originally by: The Hooch

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You don't even a small clue about just how deep those pockets are, if BoB lost every POS they have it would not even begin to touch them in the isk department.

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I think you both underestimate how much corp/alliance isk a war of this magnitude burns and overestimate the wealth and earning potential of most people regularly participating in frontline combat.

People generally don't burn their earning assets, since (aside from the starbase ones) they're pretty darn portable.

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I'll give you a tiny weeny clue about "realpolitik". A single Titan loss represents more isk than what you can recover from a dyspro moon in 3 years. BoB's Empire-based money-making infrastructure can't be dented because the game mechanics do not oblige financial and industrial streams to be tied directly. BoB is trading their space against hostile isk losses which are significant since the vast majority of Coalition members aren't 0-day players who can keep making isk even when they're asleep

So you can continue to pwn & spam POS'es all around. At the end, it's that much logistics overhead and target tag's that you are slapping all over the place. POS'es come and go, Empire based-economics don't.

I'll start to worry about BoB the day KM's don't show mixed T2/faction setups. Besides, even if the Coalition manages to kick them out of Delve, only shortsighted people could possibly believe that this could lead to BoB's downfall. When you concentrate the amount of experience, sp and isk BoB achieves, it's only due to internal struggles, mismanagement and leadership conflicts that they could meet their demise.

Don't forget. These peeps knew the ins & outs of EvE already at a time many of your future Coalition members weren't even aware that a game like EvE existed

Anyhow, most of these "poor BoB" threads are symptomatic of the Coalition needs in domestic propaganda consumption, which should logically be inversely proportional to how good you effectively do on the field. Apart blowing POS'es and taking space, is BoB any less threatening after all the losses you suffered ? Me don't think so...

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Originally by: Baxalusx

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Strategic victories have very little to do with economics. This is the reason we always say K/D ratio doesn't matter.

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Originally by: Baxalusx

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Strategic victories have very little to do with economics. This is the reason we always say K/D ratio doesn't matter.

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Originally by: Attack Dog

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Does any1 know when the anti goon coalition sign up is? I keep missing the flyers

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Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny

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After BoB is gone, 0.0 will be just like Hello Kitty Online with everyone holding hands and skipping through 0.0 belts helping everyone get into a titan

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Originally by: Valkazm

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YAY I CANT WAIT \o/

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Originally by: gaaksel

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Personally the first thing i do after the war comes to an end is getting into serious diplomatic talks with the entitiy called "wife".

The only impact this war had on me personally so far has been said diplomatic relationships to the above entity. And i can confirm that "wife" is clearly more frightening than the whole of eve combined :).

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Apart blowing POS'es and taking space, is BoB any less threatening after all the losses you suffered ? Me don't think so...

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Originally by: fugazii

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more and more super caps are being built and used

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Originally by: Tilta

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That's certainly your prerogative, but what with BoB's constant redefinitions of what constitutes victory, I believe even they would beg to differ.

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Originally by: gaaksel

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Such elegant words, such great misunderstandings :)

I would like to kindly refer you to the beginning of my post stating the important word "AFTER", this should lead to complete understanding of my post as a whole and should help you to see the error in your reply.
And yes, the ability to make isk while being afk does not stop in times of peace, yet the playtime can be reduced without risking to miss actual PvP.
And since PvP is the sole reason i play these days i can safely say that i will be able to spend a little more time with the "wife" entity after we have fought of your onslaught, at least till we start removing the remnants of the coalition from 0.0 space.

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Originally by: Baxalusx

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like Molle going on vacation mid-invasion

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Originally by: Baxalusx

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After schmafter. Your original post is telling because it reveals undesired (in this case, real life) sacrifices made in the name of winning the game, and that makes it a good example of why BoB's strategy is unsustainable long term. Sooner or later, perspective sets in - it's most visible at the leadership level, like Molle going on vacation mid-invasion immediately following a period of high activity where he took on a large personal burden in the leadership vacuum.

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Originally by: Darkrydar

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Originally by: Baxalusx

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like Molle going on vacation mid-invasion

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So, players should hold off on a vacation because of Eve?

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Originally by: Proxay

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Originally by: Darkrydar

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Originally by: Baxalusx

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like Molle going on vacation mid-invasion

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So, players should hold off on a vacation because of Eve?

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Grasping at straws is a viable propaganda tactic.

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Originally by: thoth foc

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dont be cruel, Baxalusx has been trying hard all morning at this

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Originally by: Darkrydar

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Originally by: Baxalusx

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like Molle going on vacation mid-invasion

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So, players should hold off on a vacation because of Eve?

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Originally by: thoth foc

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0.0 space in general has very little to do with economics these days..

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Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam

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Originally by: thoth foc

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0.0 space in general has very little to do with economics these days..

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You're wrong. Military serves economics and not the other way around. It has alway been like that and Eve is no different.

Assets are worthless if they aren't yours to have and to protect.

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Originally by: thoth foc

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Really? guess i'm just lucky I can make all my isk in Empire.. no one else in the whole game fights in 0.0 and makes isk in empire..

Another one of your excellent insights into game mechanics.. congratz

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Originally by: thoth foc

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Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam

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Originally by: thoth foc

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0.0 space in general has very little to do with economics these days..

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You're wrong. Military serves economics and not the other way around. It has alway been like that and Eve is no different.

Assets are worthless if they aren't yours to have and to protect.

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Really? guess i'm just lucky I can make all my isk in Empire.. no one else in the whole game fights in 0.0 and makes isk in empire..

Another one of your excellent insights into game mechanics.. congratz

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Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam

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Originally by: thoth foc

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0.0 space in general has very little to do with economics these days..

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You're wrong. Military serves economics and not the other way around. It has alway been like that and Eve is no different.

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Originally by: darth solo

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everyone is so sick of the south that when the southern war is over the northern war will begin.

BOB will find friends there and least competant enemies.

you can quote me on it.

d solo.

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Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam

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You have a mildly different point of view, which subjectively enables you to put arguments into your favor and give you the upper hand in the eyes of a superficial reader.

A competitive military force on its own it's unsustainable, except if you're a mercenary. You can't buy ships, modules, logistics, POS, POS modules... because you have no ISK, because you're a military, all you do is fight (in theory). (The theory applies to our case though, as in Eve there are those whole love to build and those who love to wreck and in most cases it's very distinct.)

However, if something finances you, it gets going and it doesn't stop until the source says it stops. Obviously, it's the source that controls the military or the military works for the source or even better the military satisfies the source's need or else it would extinct.

Hence, the military was created to satisfy the needs for protection. It's a world known fact for all the RL world countries, the army protects the economical interests of the country that they serve and which sustains the military force. There never was military without industry which in it turn is a big part of the economy.

Why did I say that 0.0 is very close related to Eve economics? Because, 0.0 is so filthy rich in resources compared to empire. You can make all your t2 production in empire, but you will still need the basic ores and moon mining products which are found superabundant in 0.0. Further more, top notch faction and officer gear is found only in 0.0. Even more so, supercaps are built exclusively in 0.0. Finally, let's not say all the 0.0 alliances are dumb because they moved in 0.0 when you could make ISK in empire, too.

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Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam

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There never was military without industry which in it turn is a big part of the economy.

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Quote:

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Why did I say that 0.0 is very close related to Eve economics? Because, 0.0 is so filthy rich in resources compared to empire. You can make all your t2 production in empire, but you will still need the basic ores and moon mining products which are found superabundant in 0.0. Further more, top notch faction and officer gear is found only in 0.0. Even more so, supercaps are built exclusively in 0.0. Finally, let's not say all the 0.0 alliances are dumb because they moved in 0.0 when you could make ISK in empire, too.

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Originally by: Tholarim

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BoB will be poor when we lose our stations. You read it here first!

p.s. LOL

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Originally by: Mr Nottcase

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Originally by: darth solo

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everyone is so sick of the south that when the southern war is over the northern war will begin.

BOB will find friends there and least competant enemies.

you can quote me on it.

d solo.

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hey i miss these guys..

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Originally by: smitor

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historically this is plain wrong. There were armies before the industrial age and there were armies which had no "financial backbone". Tribal armies, Guerilla forces, BC cultures would spring to my mind.

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Originally by: smitor

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This is also wrong. In eve you can buy everything as there is no controlled supply. The guy building t2 goods does in most cases buy the parts of the market. The times where 1 guy grindes and mines everything himself are longgone.

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Originally by: smitor

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Motherships and faction gear is also sold "daily" somewhere. You just need to bring the little bit of extra cash and you dont have to farm a single plex or fuel a single pos for a fully faction fitted mothership. The joys of the open market.

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Originally by: smitor

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As a conclusion: As long as 0.0 is not controlled by a single entity or coalition of alliances who officially blockade empire from all 0.0 products and who are somehow able to enforce this over the greed of their membersbase your vision of 0.0 will not be true.

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Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny

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After BoB is gone, 0.0 will be just like Hello Kitty Online with everyone holding hands and skipping through 0.0 belts helping everyone get into a titan

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Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam

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Originally by: smitor

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historically this is plain wrong. There were armies before the industrial age and there were armies which had no "financial backbone". Tribal armies, Guerilla forces, BC cultures would spring to my mind.

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I'm not talking about industry as what it's known from the industrial era. Of course there were small armies here and there, guerilla forces, small tribes spread across the land fighting for their principles and a small piece of land. But the point is, did they make any difference? Were they successful? Yes and no, but in most cases, definitely "No".

Originally by: smitor

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This is also wrong. In eve you can buy everything as there is no controlled supply. The guy building t2 goods does in most cases buy the parts of the market. The times where 1 guy grindes and mines everything himself are longgone.

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No, these times are not long gone. In many cases that's why you see poorly fitted MS getting ganked in low sec. Of course, maybe that guy didn't do it by himself, he maybe bought it on ebay (the MS). But at the origin, someone did it. He grinded some poor mineral somewhere in empire or in 0.0 for weeks and he did it.

So, the point is you need ISK to buy parts. 0.0 is a plain opportunity to make ISK. BoB had pets in 0.0 making ISK. You charged 6 bil per month per alliance. Try making that sum in empire from scratch, give it... and retain consistent profit. It ain't so doable from scratch. Not by a long shot to what you can achieve in 0.0.

Originally by: smitor

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Motherships and faction gear is also sold "daily" somewhere. You just need to bring the little bit of extra cash and you dont have to farm a single plex or fuel a single pos for a fully faction fitted mothership. The joys of the open market.

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Maybe not you, but others really have to do it. And someone surely needs the cash to buy Core or Estamel gear. That little bit of cash actually meant double when MS were broken and sov 4 didn't exist. Titans are still sold the double compared to mineral prices.

Originally by: smitor

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As a conclusion: As long as 0.0 is not controlled by a single entity or coalition of alliances who officially blockade empire from all 0.0 products and who are somehow able to enforce this over the greed of their membersbase your vision of 0.0 will not be true.

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My theory stands and it's actually applied on regular bases by 0.0 holding alliances. Even BoB applied it, but in reverse and ironically, they didn't even provide military assistance back when the hand that fed them needed it.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Thus I can never go bankrupt ever. Now how do alliances that actually think 0.0 has the city of gold, going to bankrupt me?

I mean, I can shut down most of coaltions isk making process by invading their space as most coalation corps live off ratting/mining as their stable income - they, on the othe hand, can never shut down my income.

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Originally by: steveid

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If, or as some would have it, when, BoB is removed from delve and no longer holds space I think its safe to say that some of the weaker coalition partners will have a welcome party they cannot handle in their home space.

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Originally by: dastommy79

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I took a nap with a guy named bob once. I dont much like speaking about it though.

he was gentle atleast....

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Originally by: smitor

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Tearavygh, are you serious ?

Groups without industry werent "that successfull" ?

Mongols, Crusaders, Mayas, ancient egypt etc etc.

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Even though pretty much all member alliances in the Coalition seem to be planning to cut out large portions of their standings list out as soon as the war is over, I am sure that were BoB to head off and attack someplace after they lose Delve, they'd have most of the current Coalition moving in to Waterloo them.

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Originally by: Moonlight Express

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Even though pretty much all member alliances in the Coalition seem to be planning to cut out large portions of their standings list out as soon as the war is over, I am sure that were BoB to head off and attack someplace after they lose Delve, they'd have most of the current Coalition moving in to Waterloo them.

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You hope so, because if BoB does die, everyone will be comming for goons next.

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Originally by: Exortius Amarrus

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It's me. I will NAP BoB first.

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Originally by: smitor

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Tearavygh, are you serious ?

Groups without industry werent "that successfull" ?

Mongols, Crusaders, Mayas, ancient egypt etc etc.

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All of the above had at least some form of industry. Especially the Egyptians.

Even Mongols had some primitive industrial capability, and that's even before they conquered China. For example, Genghis Khan's father was a blacksmith.

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Originally by: marakor

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i have a industrial dude who is exclusivly sat in empire buying components and building mods to sell

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Originally by: marakor

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i have a industrial dude who is exclusivly sat in empire buying components and building mods to sell

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Yeah, so do I. It's what all my money in Eve comes from.

However, none of that is relevant to my post or the post I was replying to.

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Originally by: marakor

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i have a industrial dude who is exclusivly sat in empire buying components and building mods to sell

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Yeah, so do I. It's what all my money in Eve comes from.

However, none of that is relevant to my post or the post I was replying to.

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Originally by: smitor

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If a tribal army had "bring your own sword and come here" its not industry.

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Originally by: marakor

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Originally by: marakor

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i have a industrial dude who is exclusivly sat in empire buying components and building mods to sell

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Yeah, so do I. It's what all my money in Eve comes from.

However, none of that is relevant to my post or the post I was replying to.

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But gengis kahn having a blacksmith for a dad is?.

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Originally by: marakor

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Originally by: marakor

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i have a industrial dude who is exclusivly sat in empire buying components and building mods to sell

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Yeah, so do I. It's what all my money in Eve comes from.

However, none of that is relevant to my post or the post I was replying to.

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But gengis kahn having a blacksmith for a dad is?.

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As an answer to someone saying the Mongols didn't have any kind of industry, yeah it is.

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Edited by: Hannobaal on 18/02/2008 18:51:32

Originally by: smitor

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If a tribal army had "bring your own sword and come here" its not industry.

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Except it wasn't really like that. But a lot of people assume that old tribal societies were more primitive than they actually were, so your opinion is understandable. Truth is, even the Scythians, who were a lot more primitive than the Mongols, were involved in industry and trade some 2000 years before the Mongols came around (or became powerful at least).

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Originally by: marakor

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1. blacksmithing is not considered indistry in any referances i can find until the 1800's when metal working became "industrialised".

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Edited by: Hannobaal on 18/02/2008 19:06:41

Originally by: marakor

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1. blacksmithing is not considered indistry in any referances i can find until the 1800's when metal working became "industrialised".

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I don't see how you can describe it any other way unless you're using the word industry in an extremely narrow sense, which I don't think is the meaning the first person that brought it up intended.

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Originally by: FireAnt

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I would love to know who is planned on holding delve "if" bob is pushed out. I mean are goon going to stay there and live? Ra? What force in eve could hold it? There are none unless the whole coalition plans on living and staying in delve.

TBH the coalition is fighting a war they cannot win.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Next time I play football, I am making a Team with 4 defenders. 5 Defencive Midfielders and a guy up front who pulls back. That will teach them how to win.... Oh wait, thats the Scotland Formation.. well, erm... ok bad example....

Anyhow Jokes aside, in case you dont know - I gave up making isk in 0.0 over a year ago. 6/10 plex chaining in a gist CNR was a waste of time when I could be making far more afk or semi afk in highsec. Thus I can never go bankrupt ever. Now how do alliances that actually think 0.0 has the city of gold, going to bankrupt me?

I mean, I can shut down most of coaltions isk making process by invading their space as most coalation corps live off ratting/mining as their stable income - they, on the othe hand, can never shut down my income.

And that is where all your arguments fail, for if your income is not diversified - then YOU will go to the poor house if someone like us invades the "gold in them thar hills" peice of 0.0 you are sitting on.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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That's why the only way to really hurt BoB lies in hostile social engineering against their leadership and not this stupid display of brute force. The day the Coalition can master the intricacies of exquisite machiavelism at the level of entities like the Guiding Hand Social Club, there will be some hope. Until then, the Coalition is pretty much only entertaining BoB at its own expenses and would be well advised to take some lectures by Istvaan Shogaatsu.

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Originally by: marakor

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Edited by: marakor on 18/02/2008 19:20:43
Edited by: marakor on 18/02/2008 19:15:30

Originally by: Hannobaal

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Edited by: Hannobaal on 18/02/2008 19:06:41

Originally by: marakor

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1. blacksmithing is not considered indistry in any referances i can find until the 1800's when metal working became "industrialised".

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I don't see how you can describe it any other way unless you're using the word industry in an extremely narrow sense, which I don't think is the meaning the first person that brought it up intended.

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Ok il make it simple for you and ask the actualy question you managed to derail.

Can a player or group of players make enough isk outside of 0.0 to sustain them?. Considering you do it il guess your gonna answer yes unless you can find a spelling mistake in my post you think has particular importance.

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Quote:

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PS: ghengis kahns father was a minor tribal chief not a blacksmith.

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Originally by: Cippalippus Primus

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You are downsizing the coalition's achievements in politics. Turning former allies and pets against their own master is machiavelism. What you're talking about isn't machiavelism, it's deception and intrigue- equally interesting, but a whole different thing.

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Originally by: Cippalippus Primus

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Originally by: Semkhet

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That's why the only way to really hurt BoB lies in hostile social engineering against their leadership and not this stupid display of brute force. The day the Coalition can master the intricacies of exquisite machiavelism at the level of entities like the Guiding Hand Social Club, there will be some hope. Until then, the Coalition is pretty much only entertaining BoB at its own expenses and would be well advised to take some lectures by Istvaan Shogaatsu.

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You are downsizing the coalition's achievements in politics. Turning former allies and pets against their own master is machiavelism. What you're talking about isn't machiavelism, it's deception and intrigue- equally interesting, but a whole different thing.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Rather than downsizing the Coalition accomplishments, since I've no special sympathy neither for BoB nor the Coalition, I'm simply stating that IMHO, you are using the wrong tools against your opponent and if you persist, you risk to exhaust your resources in the long run and get dragged into a logistical nightmare while not necessarily crippling BoB's capacity to project power where and when it pleases them. That's all.

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Originally by: Cippalippus Primus

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Edited by: Cippalippus Primus on 18/02/2008 20:31:08

Originally by: Semkhet

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Rather than downsizing the Coalition accomplishments, since I've no special sympathy neither for BoB nor the Coalition, I'm simply stating that IMHO, you are using the wrong tools against your opponent and if you persist, you risk to exhaust your resources in the long run and get dragged into a logistical nightmare while not necessarily crippling BoB's capacity to project power where and when it pleases them. That's all.

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It's not really a logistical nightmare, Delve is nicely close to empire; much more than Omist or Paragon Soul, regions that fell before.

I was however commenting on your use of the noun "machiavelism", referring to an author I studied in depth in my old times. Machiavelli explained the use of force, deception and intrigue, used by a Prince, to achieve a political objective. As you see, the Coalition managed to do pretty well in that regard.

Istvaan used force, deception and intrigue, but the political agenda was either concealed or non-existant, and it didn't manage to increase the power directly held by the person behind the scenes.

Hence why your use of the term "machiavelism" was misplaced.

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Originally by: gaaksel

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till we start removing the remnants of the coalition from 0.0 space.

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Originally by: Cippalippus

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It's not really a logistical nightmare, Delve is nicely close to empire; much more than Omist or Paragon Soul, regions that fell before.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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You don't seem to comprehend that roaming hordes enjoy the privilege of the initiative, and it is not the kind of warfare which can be preempted.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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It is a logistical nightmare in the sense that while the number of static targets BoB offers are constantly decreasing, the number of possible targets you expose are increasing proportionally. You don't seem to comprehend that roaming hordes enjoy the privilege of the initiative, and it is not the kind of warfare which can be preempted.

It's exactly like the struggle between intelligence services and terrorist cells. The former must cover constantly all bases while the latter only needs to exploit vulnerabilities which always pop out, soon or later.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Edited by: Semkhet on 18/02/2008 20:53:05

Originally by: Cippalippus

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It's not really a logistical nightmare, Delve is nicely close to empire; much more than Omist or Paragon Soul, regions that fell before.

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It is a logistical nightmare in the sense that while the number of static targets BoB offers are constantly decreasing, the number of possible targets you expose are increasing proportionally. You don't seem to comprehend that roaming hordes enjoy the privilege of the initiative, and it is not the kind of warfare which can be preempted.

It's exactly like the struggle between intelligence services and terrorist cells. The former must cover constantly all bases while the latter only needs to exploit vulnerabilities which always pop out, soon or later.

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Originally by: toto moor

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In a chat with a few "influential" people in the coalition the idea was mooted that the existing blues reset standings, go back to the NBSI state of affairs, but have a pact that If BOB attempts to attack one of the coalition then all would temporary ally to keep BOB out of 0.0.(this as far as I know hasnt been agreed by all yet)

Once the NOL and F-T areas fall there will be a major standing reset by all the coalition forces, some will agree to NBSI but no POS, soveriegn warfare, others will try to make inroads on previously freindly space, but all will agree I believe to ceasefire if BOB becomes a threat to any ones space.

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Originally by: marakor

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Edited by: marakor on 18/02/2008 21:07:49[/edit

Maybe not under the ticker "BOB" but considering how easy it is to buy and sell chars they could be in another part of 0.0 as we speak under another alliance name.

Its quite a tribute to the power they commanded and fear they still generate that so many alliances are willing to agree to drop whatever wars they are fighting and blob up to stop BOB from gaining any 0.0 space again.

Considering the quality of the alliances in the coalition i doubt we will see an alliance of BOBS standard for a long time if ever in eve again.

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Originally by: marakor

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Its quite a tribute to the power they commanded and fear they still generate that so many alliances are willing to agree to drop whatever wars they are fighting and blob up to stop BOB from gaining any 0.0 space again.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.

Originally by: thoth foc

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Not to burst you little bubble, but ATUK/.5. left a territorial war to live in NPC stations and did rather well out of it.. took more regions again later when we wanted them.. and finally reformed into DICE out of respect for our departing leader..

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Originally by: toto moor

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Originally by: marakor

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Edited by: marakor on 18/02/2008 21:07:49[/edit

Maybe not under the ticker "BOB" but considering how easy it is to buy and sell chars they could be in another part of 0.0 as we speak under another alliance name.

Its quite a tribute to the power they commanded and fear they still generate that so many alliances are willing to agree to drop whatever wars they are fighting and blob up to stop BOB from gaining any 0.0 space again.

Considering the quality of the alliances in the coalition i doubt we will see an alliance of BOBS standard for a long time if ever in eve again.

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It is a tribute, there is no doubt this war has been the biggest thing in EVE since it began, and a lot of that is due to BOB and who they are (some also has to be said is due to their arrogance, Had to get a kick in somewhere)

BOB have the talent, expertise and skill to dominate EVE, but their tactical brilliance was and is let down by their strategic mistakes. Winning a battle is fine and dandy, dismissing and losing your allies in a war that revolves around numbers and timezones is a recipe for disaster.

The coalition in this war had one major ally against BOB, BOB itself.

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Originally by: Tilta

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Originally by: Cippalippus Primus

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You are downsizing the coalition's achievements in politics. Turning former allies and pets against their own master is machiavelism. What you're talking about isn't machiavelism, it's deception and intrigue- equally interesting, but a whole different thing.

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Nonsense, BoB either abandoned or alienated through arrogance every ally they had, all by themselves. With leadership like that, who need enemy subterfuge?

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Originally by: toto moor

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I speak as someone who is publicaly anti-BOB

I know and speak to quite a few BOB members

I know also from coalition members ...unless you are going to camp in BOB members into 0.0 npc stations for months and months there is little chance of breaking BOB as an alliance. No-one I have spoken too has said they think their members would want to spend their on-line time doing that to BOB once their stations are all gone.

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Originally by: toto moor

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In a chat with a few "influential" people in the coalition

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Originally by: toto moor

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all will agree I believe to ceasefire if BOB becomes a threat to any ones space.

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Originally by: toto moor

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BOB cannot and will not be killed by the coalition, but they can and probably will ensure to paraphrase someone famous, "Never be allowed to build up in 0.0 again"

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agree that bob successes are the reason that they have such a huge force against them but the fact remains that their is somthing wrong with the mechanics of a combat game when you can win 95% of the battles and still lose the war.

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Originally by: Brobuck

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Blah

Blah

Blah
So, they've won?

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Originally by: Whitney Novak

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Quote:

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agree that bob successes are the reason that they have such a huge force against them but the fact remains that their is somthing wrong with the mechanics of a combat game when you can win 95% of the battles and still lose the war.

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Sorry but your wrong, war is about killing your enemy forces quicker than they can kill you, if they have many many more people then you either have to kill them lots and lots more or lose, there are plenty of historical records where troops have been thrown in to die time and time again and in the end the force of numbers takes the field.

Why should Eve be any different?

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RL analogies are a waste of time as your examples rely totaly on very old historical battles and have no reality what so ever in modern warfare.

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Originally by: toto moor

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But it is relevant in Eve, as BOB are killing more of their enemy than they are dying but still losing their space, the analogy works because it is true, if I have more troops than you have bullets I will hold the field in the end, I may lose more people than you, but I will gain the ground.

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Originally by: Patch86

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Another perspective is that if a group of some 5000 people + change spend 6 months, a year, however long this has been going on motivated solely by kicking someone out of 0.0, odds are they're going to be motivated to keep them kicked out in the future. The motivation is to keep your victorious results victorious.

....evicting an alliance just to let them move back in a month later would certainly feel a tad hollow.

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Originally by: toto moor

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Quote:

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RL analogies are a waste of time as your examples rely totaly on very old historical battles and have no reality what so ever in modern warfare.

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But it is relevant in Eve, as BOB are killing more of their enemy than they are dying but still losing their space, the analogy works because it is true, if I have more troops than you have bullets I will hold the field in the end, I may lose more people than you, but I will gain the ground.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Originally by: toto moor

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Quote:

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RL analogies are a waste of time as your examples rely totaly on very old historical battles and have no reality what so ever in modern warfare.

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But it is relevant in Eve, as BOB are killing more of their enemy than they are dying but still losing their space, the analogy works because it is true, if I have more troops than you have bullets I will hold the field in the end, I may lose more people than you, but I will gain the ground.

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If China were to have 40% conscription, thats 400million soldiers. If they were sent to charge the world with pichforks, sure a defending army with less than 400 million bullets may not seem effective. But you also assume that each of the 400 million soldiers enjoys charging into the meatgrinder armed with pichforks. You also assume that the 400 million soldiers will not "lag" due to sheer numbers climing over themselves and their fallen.

You see, I dont know anyone we fight that enjoys the absolute ass kickings we give them. Therefore less people turn up to the meatgrinder, and those that do tend to downgrade a shiptype or two. This can quite clearly be seen in pilots bringing noobships and shuttles to battle insted of ships that can actually win a fight. The numbers of deserters on the Coalation front is steadaly increasing, as you do not factor in moral in your calcuations.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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If China were to have 40% conscription, thats 400million soldiers. If they were sent to charge the world with pichforks, sure a defending army with less than 400 million bullets may not seem effective. But you also assume that each of the 400 million soldiers enjoys charging into the meatgrinder armed with pichforks. You also assume that the 400 million soldiers will not "lag" due to sheer numbers climing over themselves and their fallen.

You see, I dont know anyone we fight that enjoys the absolute ass kickings we give them. Therefore less people turn up to the meatgrinder, and those that do tend to downgrade a shiptype or two. This can quite clearly be seen in pilots bringing noobships and shuttles to battle insted of ships that can actually win a fight. The numbers of deserters on the Coalation front is steadaly increasing, as you do not factor in moral in your calcuations.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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You see, I dont know anyone we fight that enjoys the absolute ass kickings we give them.

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Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle

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Originally by: thoth foc

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Not to burst you little bubble, but ATUK/.5. left a territorial war to live in NPC stations and did rather well out of it.. took more regions again later when we wanted them.. and finally reformed into DICE out of respect for our departing leader..

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Hehe, I remember that. At the end you forced us (F-E) to nap you cause you had 8 dreads in our main system, and we had like 5 dreads in the whole alliance, and 4 of then where offline.

Its a little different now

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Originally by: toto moor

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You would have a valid point, if the guys who go back and get into noobships and shuttles were doing that, but, look over your shoulder, in NOL there are caps, super caps, T2 fitted ships flown by guys you have killed over and over again.

Goons & friends have the numbers to rotate their troops to allow them to recuperate and then throw them back into the fray.not just today or tomorrow but time and time again. that is what will win this war, that and the fact you and me dont like losing expensive ships while those strange goons find it hilarious

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Originally by: Tripden

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Originally by: toto moor

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You would have a valid point, if the guys who go back and get into noobships and shuttles were doing that, but, look over your shoulder, in NOL there are caps, super caps, T2 fitted ships flown by guys you have killed over and over again.

Goons & friends have the numbers to rotate their troops to allow them to recuperate and then throw them back into the fray.not just today or tomorrow but time and time again. that is what will win this war, that and the fact you and me dont like losing expensive ships while those strange goons find it hilarious

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Really doubt anyone finds loosing ships/watching the log screen/not loading grid/not being able to lock fun. But hey I may be wrong...

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Originally by: thoth foc

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Originally by: Tripden

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Originally by: toto moor

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You would have a valid point, if the guys who go back and get into noobships and shuttles were doing that, but, look over your shoulder, in NOL there are caps, super caps, T2 fitted ships flown by guys you have killed over and over again.

Goons & friends have the numbers to rotate their troops to allow them to recuperate and then throw them back into the fray.not just today or tomorrow but time and time again. that is what will win this war, that and the fact you and me dont like losing expensive ships while those strange goons find it hilarious

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Really doubt anyone finds loosing ships/watching the log screen/not loading grid/not being able to lock fun. But hey I may be wrong...

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Enjoy prolly not, but it isnt that hard to motivate ppl into doing.. just tell them they are gaining strategic victories etc.. not that many really put much fore thought into the validity of the claims

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Edited by: Semkhet on 18/02/2008 20:53:05

Originally by: Cippalippus

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It's not really a logistical nightmare, Delve is nicely close to empire; much more than Omist or Paragon Soul, regions that fell before.

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It is a logistical nightmare in the sense that while the number of static targets BoB offers are constantly decreasing, the number of possible targets you expose are increasing proportionally. You don't seem to comprehend that roaming hordes enjoy the privilege of the initiative, and it is not the kind of warfare which can be preempted.

It's exactly like the struggle between intelligence services and terrorist cells. The former must cover constantly all bases while the latter only needs to exploit vulnerabilities which always pop out, soon or later.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Haha, are you really denying that the Coalition is getting strategic victories? They don't have to be told they are gaining strategic victories. The long list of fallen stationsystems from 66- onwards up to QY6 is proving it.

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Originally by: thoth foc

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Haha, are you really denying that the Coalition is getting strategic victories? They don't have to be told they are gaining strategic victories. The long list of fallen stationsystems from 66- onwards up to QY6 is proving it.

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yes.. because a strategy of taking stations in an NPC region is pointless... it's really not that difficult to understand is it?

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Haha, are you really denying that the Coalition is getting strategic victories? They don't have to be told they are gaining strategic victories. The long list of fallen stationsystems from 66- onwards up to QY6 is proving it.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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BoB has no Sov 3/4 systems left? And there is no value to having sov 3/4 systems? For, well, I don't know, building some more supercaps? You're grasping at straws if you claim that because the NPC stations in Delve won't be taken (obviously) that BoB can't suffer a very real defeat.

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Originally by: marakor

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A rather hollow and skilless victory tbqfh.

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Originally by: Zorlag

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Originally by: marakor

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A rather hollow and skilless victory tbqfh.

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Yes but who cares what you think

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Originally by: Zorlag

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Originally by: marakor

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The only strategic victory in eve is one of morale and anybody who thinks its ships or space or stations has no idea how this game works. If you destroy a alliances morale you destroy the alliance everything else can be replaced or ignored as unimportant by the alliance holding it.

If goons or the coalition think that they are gaining anything but space by taking stations off BOB they are kidding themselves and should be focusing on killing BOB's morale instead as this is the only thing that matters if they want BOB to be truly destroyed.

What will happen is that the coalition will claim victory after they have blobbed all BOB's systems off them and go on claiming it for stopping BOB from regaining any.

A rather hollow and skilless victory tbqfh.

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Yes but who cares what you think

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Originally by: SPQRMocton

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BoB is dead they just don't know it yet

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Originally by: Breetai Tull

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Originally by: SPQRMocton

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BoB is dead they just don't know it yet

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Nah, they just have this problem with cognitive dissonance. They've been sold the line that they were invincible, and here they are getting reamed by the Goons...

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Originally by: thoth foc

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true.. RA were lucky they had asked the goons for support for ops last weekend.. if goons hadnt be able to ream BOB, RA might have lost 1 of their titans..

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Originally by: Breetai Tull

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Nah, they just have this problem with cognitive dissonance. They've been sold the line that they were invincible, and here they are getting reamed by the Goons...

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Originally by: Tarantelita

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This is what is going to hapend!

Corps that have been stabbed in the back from RaGoons and friends are going to NAP BoB, they are allready NAP:ed, they just dont want people to know it for now. Not good for there future plans if it leaks out (sry BoB that it did ).

Then its 2 options, and only Molle knws them (maybe a few other trusted CEO:s in BoB also).

1st option is to stay in Delve, using the NPC stations as base, and continue to make Delve a hell to be in, so in the end RaGoons will get tierd of garding the NPC stations In the mean time all Alliances/corps that have NAP:ed BoB will start one offencive from the other side, forcing RaGoons to send combat ships away from Delve, making it easier for BoB to figth there.

Option 2 is that BoB moves to BKG in the north just because they hate those people almost as much as they hate the Goons. When its impossimle for the north alliances to be there and they moved out, the "tick tock" tour will continue south east against the RaGoons. In the mean time the NAP:ed alliances/corps are going to figth from Delve.

If you wonder wheer the BoB titans will be if they need to hide them? In MC space ofcourse, they are still good friends, and MC are going to atack RaGoons once again BoB get a grip of the war.

Todilu

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Originally by: Pwnomus Maximus

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If i were BoB diplos i'd be cozying up to Tri right now as a new ally. After the fall of Delve where would they go? Well Branch is a pretty weak area atm and pretty far from the RSF heavy hitters and with Tri as an allied neighbor, well holy hell good morning to the north!

I don't know any of this ofc, but that's what i'd try and orchestrate :) We'll see.

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Originally by: Tilta

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The greatest bond a large chunk of your rank & file share is a history of inexorably losing to us. Joining BoB and shoring up your numbers is their last hurrah. The loss of Delve will scatter them to the winds.

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Originally by: Tilta

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Let's not forget this entire war is about their arrogance. Its absence (except when they kill stuff) is telling.

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Originally by: toto moor

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BOB cannot and will not be killed by the coalition, but they can and probably will ensure to paraphrase someone famous, "Never be allowed to build up in 0.0 again"

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Originally by: Brobuck

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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You see, I dont know anyone we fight that enjoys the absolute ass kickings we give them.

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It has been a while since you guys really did that. Most of your membership is now remnants of failed alliances. The hard-core, high sp, dedicated pvp pilot isn't really around in BoB that much. Say what you want, I see a lot more T1 fitted ships, and a lot more frigs and cruisers. Didn't Molle go a little ballistic about you guys showing up in those? Didn't he threaten the red pen for pilots bringing those ships to battles?

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