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Zero Uptick
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Posted - 2008.02.18 03:22:00 -
[1]
As a region trader the big hole in my strategy is courier contractors. Currently there is simply no way to prevent the competition from just picking up a load of my jobs, checking the contents, finishing the jobs and then putting up their own buy orders for the stuff I'm trading. It shouldn't be this easy.
It's just plain silly that the guy running the job can open the box and see what's inside without failing the contract. When Fedex or UPS tries this kind of thing, I can refuse to take delivery, why is this loophole in-game?
I propose adding a 50k isk "tamper-proof" courier contract where if the courier opens the box, it fails the job. You want to see what's in my box (without getting someone to scan your hold) it'll cost you the collateral. Pretty simple and obvious right?
It really has nothing to do with trust, this is a weakness in the entire courier contract system. Even if I do go to a "trusted courier" and private contracts I still have absolutely no mechanism to ensure my box gets there unopened. It borders on intolerable.
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Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
The Unseen Company
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Posted - 2008.02.18 08:34:00 -
[2]
Use corp mates you trust to do this.
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Eka Maladay
Gallente
The Elliance
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Posted - 2008.02.18 08:35:00 -
[3]
I have no idea that it is possible to open the box. O.o if this is true this is serious flaw.
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I tank, therefore I am. |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.02.18 10:23:00 -
[4]
I thought you had to break the box to see inside and thus fail the mission.
But as collaterals are so huge and rewards so small, I never got into courrier missions.
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Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Serathii
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Posted - 2008.02.18 10:42:00 -
[5]
i agree you should not be able to look inside the package(exept maybe with a cargo scanner)
i think there should be 2 collaterals, one for failing, and one for looking.
and i think courrier missions could be good money, if you have enough money for a collaterals, you could just get a hauler alt in empire and haul stuff for extra money.
load cargo, set destination, activate autopilot, go do something, collect cash
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Brother Welcome
Amarr
Icarus' Wings
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.18 15:38:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Brother Welcome on 18/02/2008 15:38:37
 Originally by: Serathii
and i think courrier missions could be good money, if you have enough money for a collaterals, you could just get a hauler alt in empire and haul stuff for extra money.
load cargo, set destination, activate autopilot, go do something, collect cash
Until someone scams your collateral for their can full of vapour.
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Jarne
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2008.02.18 16:49:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jarne on 18/02/2008 16:51:34
You could still put it into your cargo and let an alt scan it, so what would this solve?
[Edit]On a side note: You can search contracts for certain items and you'll also find courier missions where those items are in the package. Is this intended? I think you can't look into the package before accepting the contract, but this makes it somehow possible. THAT seems like a loop hole to me.[/Edit]
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Success=Achievements/Expectations
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Zero Uptick
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Posted - 2008.02.18 17:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jarne
Edited by: Jarne on 18/02/2008 16:51:34
You could still put it into your cargo and let an alt scan it, so what would this solve?
I consider this fair game--nothing to be done about someone else scanning your hold unless we want some nice lead-lined containers added too.
I take issue with the fact that a single unassisted courier gets a free pass to pop open every box I ship. This is about removing the temptation.
afaik corp courier contracts have the same limitation but I could be wrong there.
Thanks for the replies,
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Typheonic
Gallente
Astrum Contract Services Group
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:16:00 -
[9]
The idea of a low-slot passive counter to cargo scanners is not a bad idea. I would sacrifice a bit of cargo space if I knew my hold couldn't be scanned if I had to pass through one of the many suicide choke points in my travels. If not a low-slot passive, perhaps a mid-slot active that either obscures the hold with random electronic noise or emits false readings making the scan unreliable. A lead-lined secure container would also be a welcome addition. Something that is unscannable, but sacrifices the cargo expansion properties of a normal secure container.
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Jason Travers
Space 1999
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:27:00 -
[10]
Contracts total isk value on the market + 10% = collaterial. That way if they decide to keep your stuff you made your origional selling price pluse an additional 10% profet.
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Zero Uptick
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jason Travers
Contracts total isk value on the market + 10% = collaterial. That way if they decide to keep your stuff you made your origional selling price pluse an additional 10% profet.
This helps me how? This has nothing to do with failing contracts and being covered by the collateral.
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Zero Uptick
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Posted - 2008.02.19 16:14:00 -
[12]
this is a bump post
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Zero Uptick
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Posted - 2008.02.24 14:39:00 -
[13]
one last bump
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CCP Code Monkey
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Posted - 2008.02.24 15:48:00 -
[14]
This is something that is on our internal wishlist to overhaul.
However, there are some pretty steep technical hurdles in the way that have to do with how Eve's inventory system handles ownership of items. The deep-down base server logic will have to be made aware that even though a certain entity owns the courier-specific type of container he should not get any information about what's inside.
The amount of work involved will have to be leveraged against other things on our wishlist.
Technobabble aside, we agree and eventually we'll see changes to the courier system for the better. Can't say when though. 
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Jar'cana Brig
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Posted - 2008.02.24 18:45:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zero Uptick
When Fedex or UPS tries this kind of thing, I can refuse to take delivery, why is this loophole in-game?
As a delivery person for one of the mentioned companies, I'll remind you that we have the right to open any package shipped with us at any time to verify the contents. I've had a number of clients try to ship hazardous materials illegally, and I'm not about to put my life in danger or pay a huge DOT fine so that they can save a buck.
Also, if you're sending something to yourself at another location, and you refuse it at the destination, it then goes back to you at the original location. If it's broken you can file a claim, otherwise you're SOL.
In this game it works the same way. There are folks that try to ship drugs/contraband through the contracts, and also the odd pirate trying to get some extra cash on a kill. I check the contents of shipping containers to make sure I'm not getting completely screwed. - loosing 10mil in collateral is nothing to loosing 100mil via a customs NPC
But the other side is, most of the courier contracts are completely worthless. 500k for a 15 jump trip in a hauler? 2mil for 30 jumps in a freighter? These chincy bastards need to start paying more if they want better service anyway. You get what you pay for.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.02.24 20:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jar'cana Brig
But the other side is, most of the courier contracts are completely worthless. 500k for a 15 jump trip in a hauler? 2mil for 30 jumps in a freighter? These chincy bastards need to start paying more if they want better service anyway. You get what you pay for.
This problem can also be fixed with a courier contract overhaul. The value of having something moved is not that high, but the potential cost to the pilot accepting the contract is significant because of the collateral.
I'd suggest, as someone else suggested in this forum a few weeks ago, that delivery is guaranteed. If the hauling ship is destroyed, then the cargo is placed back in the contracting player's hangar at the starting location of the contract. If the hauling player fails the mission, breaks the seal, etc, the cargo returns to the contracting player's hangar at the starting location. In other words, any failure returns the cargo to the original owner at the starting location.
This will mean collateral is not a requirement, which will have the effect of making courier contracts more attractive to the players that have fewer skill points, have less ISK in general but can fly industrials just fine. The player that sees 500K ISK reward for 10 jumps (15 minutes effort) as attractive, is likely not a player that has lots of ISK to risk on collateral.
I personally would create more courier contract's if the rewards I could give were less. As it is now I have to give a reward that is so high that my profit margin is gone, when that becomes true, it is more cost effective to do it myself. If we could give less reward because the risk to the hauler is less, then we'd likely see more contracts, more contracts would generate more reward overall because the opportunity to perform hauling services would increase.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.02.24 21:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: CCP Code Monkey
This is something that is on our internal wishlist to overhaul.
However, there are some pretty steep technical hurdles in the way that have to do with how Eve's inventory system handles ownership of items. The deep-down base server logic will have to be made aware that even though a certain entity owns the courier-specific type of container he should not get any information about what's inside.
The amount of work involved will have to be leveraged against other things on our wishlist.
Technobabble aside, we agree and eventually we'll see changes to the courier system for the better. Can't say when though.
Thank you very much for the thoughtful response Code Monkey.
@ other responses
I have no issues getting nearly 100% of my courier jobs filled, offering 3% of the collateral value as reward, or 25-35k per hop whichever is greater. I just tends to make my finely managed portfolio go a bit mushy as people get free market research just from looking at what I'm shipping.
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Senisran
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.04 12:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
I'd suggest, as someone else suggested in this forum a few weeks ago, that delivery is guaranteed. If the hauling ship is destroyed, then the cargo is placed back in the contracting player's hangar at the starting location of the contract. If the hauling player fails the mission, breaks the seal, etc, the cargo returns to the contracting player's hangar at the starting location. In other words, any failure returns the cargo to the original owner at the starting location.
This will mean collateral is not a requirement, which will have the effect of making courier contracts more attractive to the players that have fewer skill points, have less ISK in general but can fly industrials just fine. The player that sees 500K ISK reward for 10 jumps (15 minutes effort) as attractive, is likely not a player that has lots of ISK to risk on collateral.
While true it would really open up the labor market for courier contracts, OH MY GOD is that a loophole.
Want to move something with zero risk of losing it? Contract it to yourself with alt, run through gate camps.. if you get killed, you get your stuff back and you can try again and again.
Totally breaks the game unfortunately.
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