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motomysz GalMatar Body Politic	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:25:00 - [1] Eve used to be hard. Starting with so few skillpoints, implant prices, no mining barges, no warp to 0, etc. I wish that the people who thought Eve was too hard would have went and found an easier game, instead of crying to make Eve easier.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:28:00 - [2] Thats nice but what is the point of your post
motomysz GalMatar Body Politic	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:33:00 - [3] Hurf Blurf. I ask the same of you.
Faierok Ad Astra Vexillum Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:34:00 - [4] probably upset that it is harder to get easy kills. The difficulty is still there imo, however the out of game information is more readily available making the learning curve a bit less sharp. Personally I am not old enough to know when mining barges were introduced but I can not see how they are not a good thing. Just try to imagine the prices of ships and mods if mining took longer than it does now.
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:35:00 - [5] They did. Those who cried weren't really listened to. What happened, instead, is that the MMO community got a chance to see just how much $$ polish, accessibility, lack of bugs, etc., could bring in, and so everyone, including CCP, started aiming for that. I think Vanguard:SOH was just about the last "hard" game ever to be designed. No more, from now on. Good luck.
Sunabi Caldari Defiance Corp Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:37:00 - [6] Hi, Moto Change is a natural part of EVE. Prices change as the economy develops, things get rarer and more common and ships go in and out of popularity. If nothing ever changed we'd all be stuck with 3 sizes of ships and all the problems and imbalances that have ever been fixed in the history of EVE. Change keeps EVE fresh and alive.
Gwoden Gallente Exa Utopia Exa Nation	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:46:00 - [7] "When i was younger, i had to walk to school. While it was cold and raining! I couldn't afford my own car to drive to school, they were too expensive. My parents didn't give me rides either! We didn't have backpacks with wheels on them. We didn't have laptops, we had to carry all of our books, notebooks, pens, pencils, cayrons, protactors, and erasers in a poorly designed and uncomfortable backpack. Man you kids have it easy." Necessity is the mother of invention. Thanks CCP for letting the game evolve and grow. _______________________________________________ There is no "I can't" only "I will".
Cygnus Scott Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:18:00 - [8] You know when I was young we didn't have no such thing as the internet. Back then if you wanted to be an asshat it was hard, you had to take your lumps or be the meanest, craziest SOB in the neighborhood. You had to at least be in somewhat close physical proximity of someone to flame them, and even if they couldn't catch you at that time you they could easily find out where you lived if they didn't already know. You couldn't be anonymous, someone sure as heck knew you and where you lived. Back in the day we didn't have no Cartoon Network, if we wanted to watch cartoons we had to wait until the afternoon and even then we only got a 2.5 hour window from 2:30pm to 5:00pm that they were on. The really good ones we had to wait until Saturday morning to watch. None of this 24 hours of cartoons on several different channels. Oh yeah we had to get up to change the channel too. You know if we wanted to listen to music we had to go to the music store and buy it, no downloading from the internet. If we wanted to listen to it we had to listen either in the car, at home, or carry around a big ass boom box. We didn't have no Ipods or MP3s. If we wanted to hear a song or album again we had to REWIND it. Yeah you don't know hard until you've spent 3 minutes just trying to find the beginning of a song in the middle of a cassette tape. You kids have it easy. Also when I was young there was no cellphones and text messaging, you wanted to talk to your friends you either called them when you were both at home or called them from a pay phone. You wanted to send a text message you wrote a damn note and passed it along and hoped the teacher didn't catch someone passing it and read it aloud to the class. Yeah you kids don't know how good you have it...and I guess it leaves with nothing to whine about except that your video games aren't "hard enough". /end sarcastic rant.
Inir Ishtori The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Letouk Mernel They did. Those who cried weren't really listened to. What happened, instead, is that the MMO community got a chance to see just how much $$ polish, accessibility, lack of bugs, etc., could bring in, and so everyone, including CCP, started aiming for that. I think Vanguard:SOH was just about the last "hard" game ever to be designed. No more, from now on. Good luck. thread over.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:31:00 - [10] Originally by: motomysz Hurf Blurf. I ask the same of you. your pretty dense. his pint was what is your point. it's very clear. also are you saying that change it too hard to deal with? wouldn't that make eve hard? are yy saying eve is too hard and you just can't handle change?
Nova Fox	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:38:00 - [11] I think the newbie tutorial was overnerfed still people every day i have to yank up and run them though my guide book because they skipped it or they missed messages.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.02.19 21:12:00 - [12] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 19/02/2008 21:12:48 Originally by: motomysz Eve used to be hard. Starting with so few skillpoints, implant prices, no mining barges, no warp to 0, etc. I wish that the people who thought Eve was too hard would have went and found an easier game, instead of crying to make Eve easier. 1. I have to agree that we got more WoW players around who expects the game to be easier. EVE is EVE and its supposed to be harsh. These have to be "educated" and CCP needs to be frequently informed that EVE must stay as it is, and not give in to all whiners! Just as SOE did with SWG. 2. However, the older EVE players - the vets - have because of the influx in point nr. 1, gone even more conservative in my opinion, and see every change to the game as making it easier. CCPs job aint easy. On one side they have to keep the red threat, the athmosphere and the game we the old players love (can I call myself a junior vet after 27 months gameplay??) while on the other side developing the game! Things cant turn static after all! In my view eve aint a PvP game or a PvE game. It is a sandbox game! In a sandbox game, you can do everything. Even nonconsentual PvP. Or keeping it safe in th realms of PvE and empire. The universe I think is large enough for everyone, and frankly, in many ways depending on each other - just as in the "real life". Now, I hate using real life about a game, but so it is. We are depending on each other to a certain extendt. People speaks about eve getting more and more carebeared. Possibly. But I cant see that have affected the pvp part, except maybe more people staying in empire. That is a choice people can take in a sandbox game. I enjoy PvP. Cant say I am good in it but I love it! However, I also love being a carebear now and then when I feel for it I personally think EVE have kept lots of its status as a harsh game. But as with love, the first date is always the most enchanting! And more and more you live together, more and more you know each other. And then in the end you know each other so good that you know each others weaknesses and strengths. but a weakness dont always need to be a weakness, but simply a trait with the others personality. And unless you crave for a divorce (read: cancelling account) both sides have to - yes - evolve. Oh well. For me EVE is just the same game as it was back in december 2005 when I started. I still love it and at time hate it. Mostly when I loose a astarte, which I commonly fly. Also, I think the CCP are doing a good job with balancing. The game must after all develope. If it stops, it will soon be dead. But I think CCP have done a wonderful job with the new player experience, making it easier getting into the game without reducing the harshness and the cold athmosphere in the game Just my 0.2 cent. And i guess a digress from the OP. Oh well Originally by: CCP Whisper I got your ambulation right here... <walks off to get more wine>
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.19 21:22:00 - [13] Eve is doing fine. If anything, I'd like to see some more indepth start up guides for the newbies, so it can be even easier for them. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Kivers Viziam	Posted - 2008.02.19 21:44:00 - [14] The range in Eve means that very few have a handle on all its aspects - it's still incredibly daunting to a new comer. You're mistaking user friendly for easy - anything that gets you into combat without having to copy 5000 regional bookmarks first is fine by me
Azirapheal Amarr Altruism. Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.19 21:49:00 - [15] phht, they just need to code in a no bookmarks within 400km of a gate or station and all is good -------------------------------------------------- Thats Boot.ini, a boot file, commonly deployed by windows
Technovar Gallente Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.02.19 22:07:00 - [16] Edited by: Technovar on 19/02/2008 22:09:19 Originally by: Cygnus Scott You know when I was young we didn't have no such thing as the internet. Back then if you wanted to be an asshat it was hard, you had to take your lumps or be the meanest, craziest SOB in the neighborhood. You had to at least be in somewhat close physical proximity of someone to flame them, and even if they couldn't catch you at that time you they could easily find out where you lived if they didn't already know. You couldn't be anonymous, someone sure as heck knew you and where you lived. Back in the day we didn't have no Cartoon Network, if we wanted to watch cartoons we had to wait until the afternoon and even then we only got a 2.5 hour window from 2:30pm to 5:00pm that they were on. The really good ones we had to wait until Saturday morning to watch. None of this 24 hours of cartoons on several different channels. Oh yeah we had to get up to change the channel too. You know if we wanted to listen to music we had to go to the music store and buy it, no downloading from the internet. If we wanted to listen to it we had to listen either in the car, at home, or carry around a big ass boom box. We didn't have no Ipods or MP3s. If we wanted to hear a song or album again we had to REWIND it. Yeah you don't know hard until you've spent 3 minutes just trying to find the beginning of a song in the middle of a cassette tape. You kids have it easy. Also when I was young there was no cellphones and text messaging, you wanted to talk to your friends you either called them when you were both at home or called them from a pay phone. You wanted to send a text message you wrote a damn note and passed it along and hoped the teacher didn't catch someone passing it and read it aloud to the class. Yeah you kids don't know how good you have it...and I guess it leaves with nothing to whine about except that your video games aren't "hard enough". /end sarcastic rant. Dude. You could at least credit Ernie Cline. That's not a parody, nor really fair use. You're just presenting someone else's (mighty impressive) work as your own, and the minor changes you made don't improve it at all.
Theodox Gotan Griefers Inc. Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.19 22:07:00 - [17] Eve didnt get "easier" , they just fixed some of the issues it has had in the past. Without mining barges, there would not be enough minerals to supply ships to the increasing number of eve subscribers. The starting skillpoints change was needed to get more people interested. And before you could warp to zero everyone used insta's and that not only lagged the server, ,but was just silly to have to do. By implementing warp to zero it reduced lag AND took out the pointless ritual of making a crap ton of instas. As for eve getting easier, sure some things have been simplified, but ive never had more fun tbh.
AlleyKat Gallente White-Noise	Posted - 2008.02.19 23:32:00 - [18] It's still just as hard today as it was when I started. Today I think it's more complex, but not easier. The basics of EVE are still the same. EVE-ONLINE VIDEO-MAKING TUTORIALS
Cipher7	Posted - 2008.02.20 00:25:00 - [19] If anything Eve has gotten better over the years. It used to be garbage with an excellent concept. Now its an excellent concept with mediocre playability. I hope in the future Eve gains all the polish and playability of mainstream games like WoW, while maintaining its original sandbox concept with no classes or professions. You might not like it but really who cares what you think. If millions of people subscribe then the proof is in the pudding. People vote with their wallets not their mouths. Trash players, griefers etc, are all welcome to quit if they don't like it. You won't be missed, and you will be replaced by better gamers who actually want a challenge not just try to bait newbs in Pator or whatever. To me people like that are just subhumans, they are the sperm which should have been swallowed instead of making it to the egg.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.20 00:38:00 - [20] Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 20/02/2008 00:38:11 Quote: Topic: Mental Eve Fixed the topic for you :) On a side note, if you ignore most of the people, EVE is a pretty cool game. I just treat other people as vaugely intelligent NPC's, obstacles to be overcome or benefit off :) Is it hard still? damn right it is.
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.02.20 00:57:00 - [21] The main thing that makes EvE easier is the fact there are more people to learn from, more ISK floating around the universe and more CCP staff to enhance the game. I have no regrets that features like Auto-Pilot were introduced. Yes, some of the older cough players will remember / commands to turn on autopilot (or even when there was none). ≡v≡ Strategic Maps - Outposts & Sov - Alliance Rank
Ghaelsto Kakram	Posted - 2008.02.20 01:38:00 - [22] You don't have to use autopilot. You don't have to use warp to 0. (and slowboat to the gate at 15km) You don't have to insure your ship. You don't have to use a scout in 0.0. You don't have to use local. (Keep it minimized that is.) You don't have to update your clone. You don't have to use TS/Vent/Ingame voice. Eve is all about choices.
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps	Posted - 2008.02.20 01:48:00 - [23] Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 20/02/2008 01:52:19 Easier for a noob, huh? I have been around for a while and I think a new guy has it harder than we did. When I started there were roids in my starter system that I could mine and buy my new ship, no ore thieves and no can flippers. I then got my frigate and I knew exactly what to train since there was not that many skills and ships to go into. I could waltz through low sec space and the only thing I feared were the rats. I would not see players in my system for days! I did not have to worry about ganging up with someone in fear of being "Loftskied". We were all new and trying to figure things out. We had two professions, mining and low level missions. When I did a mission I did not have to worry about being probed out. When I mined I could convo anyone around and have them haul my ore. I worked to a cruiser and did not have to worry about losing it to anything else but another cruiser. Because those other ships did not exist. When there is only 5000 people on I knew EXACTLY who was a pirate and who was not. When local showed a M00 gang I knew to run. Only 3 or 4 systems were gate camped at anytime through the whole universe and it was only to the low sec systems because the sentries at high sec systems were too strong. Suicide gnakers did not exist because it was not cost effective to have your battleship taken out. Hauler pilots AFKed everywhere! It took me a long time to get stuff because it was expensive but all it took was time. I did not see HALF the risks a new guy sees today. [url=http://5thcolumn.info/KB/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39077] [/url]
motomysz GalMatar Body Politic	Posted - 2008.02.20 01:59:00 - [24] Most of you have provided your opinions in a generally flame-free manner. Thank you To clear things up, I do agree with some of the changes that have happened. I'm not some ultra-conservative uber-vet who thinks the game should stay the same forever... I'm certainly not "just upset that I don't get easy kills". I simply feel like the people guiding Eve have strayed a bit away from the adjectives like "harsh" and "dangerous" that drew me to this game. Those of you who have seen the numerous hitpoint buffs, the multiple improvements of Concord and warp to zero introduced know that they make the game "easier" and "safer". Whether you consider that an improvement or not is an opinion that could be argued for ages, and I'm not up for it. That's all.
motomysz GalMatar Body Politic	Posted - 2008.02.20 02:01:00 - [25] [flamebait] For the record, I say we make gate guns hit harder, introduce respeccing, and add insurance for modules. [/flamebait]
Brutoth Tain Independant Recon and Intelligence Agency	Posted - 2008.02.20 02:03:00 - [26] Edited by: Brutoth Tain on 20/02/2008 02:06:30 Originally by: Cipher7 You might not like it but really who cares what you think. If millions of people subscribe then the proof is in the pudding. People vote with their wallets not their mouths. WOW is a Ford Mondeo, the Mondeo is a very good car its reliable, good value, comes with some excellent features and for a family saloon car its quite fun to drive. But its built with compromises in cost and its designed to blend in with everything else so more people like it than dislike it so hence you see crap loads of Ford Mondeos. EVE is a Alfa Romeo and its pointless to some but exciting to others, the Alfas polarise opinions they are gorgeous to look at and pant wettingly good to drive but they have serious design faults and will spend as much time getting repaired as you do driving it and the depreciation sucks. But the Alfa is designed with passion and with a obsessive detail to purpose that usually ignores practically, but this ultimately means the Alfa is not as common even among the other higher end cars like BMW and Mercedes. Choose what suits you best, something designed with profit margins and popularity being forefront in the designer's mind or something unique and built with passion, even if it disappoints from time to time. ---------------------------------------------- Piebears <3 Risk Vs Reward.......You take the risk they take the reward.
Vikarion Caldari United Heavens	Posted - 2008.02.20 02:06:00 - [27] I think EvE is still hard. I'm pretty new, but market competition is fierce, low-sec and 0.0 are more dangerous than ever, everyone has to worry about suicide ganking...etc. The fact that ISK is easier to get now doesn't mean it's not even easier to lose. Personally, I live only in hi-sec and I've lost a few frigs, two cruisers, one battlecruiser, a battleship, and a few other things I really would have preferred to hold on to. And that's in hi-sec, where you are supposedly safe. i'm not complaining, just pointing out that loss remains a factor. --------
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2008.02.20 02:06:00 - [28] Half the difficulty and learning curve with EVE in Beta and early retail was due to the fact that nothing was documented. It was also don't think people realize what the terms buggy, unplayable, and unbalanced mean. The internal test servers today would put to shame anything they had in the early years. I don't think its right for a game to be hard for these reasons, and have zero regrets that CCP changed things. Changing this is simply improving the game. That said, the game has gotten easier. Not by a small amount, but by a massive amount. Money and wealth is the sole reason. Its simply too easy to get, and the result is that people care less about everything. The ruthlessness, and competitive spirit of the game has taken a hit because for the most part, people can afford to keep to themselves. You don't have to work with people, or trust people to get far in the game. The vast majority of players are in corporations for the social aspect, and to find one where every member is expected to work together on a permanent basis is rare. I remember massive discussion on the Beta forums vividly, that involved my corp. Solo players or 'freelancers' were outraged that a group working as a team could go in and lay claim to a system's resources. The corporations felt the same pinch when alliances sprouted as the new superpower. Then you have coalitions of alliances. Yet, hilariously enough, its the freelancers and solo players that have inherited EVE. I have no doubt someone will disagree, but the fact remains - basic survival and self sufficiency are not even remotely challenging feats for the average player. _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/
Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.02.20 02:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Brutoth Tain EVE is a Alfa Romeo ... EVE is a Ferrari with a Volkswagen bug engine. Looks beautiful, great fun to drive, but good luck getting up that hill.
Cipher7	Posted - 2008.02.20 02:46:00 - [30] Eve is not an Alfa Romeo, it's an excel spreadsheet built into a really cool wallpaper. As far as easier I dont think its easier now. They didnt have bubbles 4 years ago, and every lowsec chokepoint in the game wasn't camped 24x7. If you had instas you could travel from one end of the universe to the other and nobody could stop you. If you drove a hauler through 0.0 without a scout you had a 50/50 chance of making it, because there were only a couple thousand people for like 3000 nullsec systems. Now pirates dont even bother to camp lowsec, they just stay in highsec and use wardec system to gank their targets. No sec hit, no logistics problems. Buy a ship in Jita, outfit it, and go camp gates or hunt people, right out of "Piracy for Dummies." When is the last time somebody got ransomed? Remember you used to hear about people getting ransomed at gates, then it evolved into a sniper Tempest sitting at a gate facing a safespot with stabs, then they nerfed stabs and brought WTZ. Then we got Privateers. They wardecced a bunch of alliances and so they had like 50,000 gankable wartargets floating around. Then they nerfed Privateers, so now its "hey can you help me with a mission?" with his friends in a wardecced corp, newb warps to help the guy, buddies come in, gank him, take the mods, rise repeat. Then you got people sitting in .5 systems scanning haulers. Kill hauler, get concorded, bring second account with hauler to scoop the loot. So now lowsec is the "I live in highsec but I'd like to have some fun today by killing people" area. 0.0 used to be the hardcore PvPer area, now its the "I just spent 4 hours staring at POS bubbles, but then the node crashed when Goonswarm showed up" area. Highsec. What can I say about highsec. Its really the only area of the game right now that doesn't suck balls. Want PvP? Dec someone or visit lowsec, or join Privaters or join RvB. Want PvE? Run missions. Want Industry? Play and sell and mine to your heart's content. Want to go into a coma? Join a 0.0 alliance and set your alarm clock for 4am.

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