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Which battle ship best for PvE?

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Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.02.21 16:34:00 - [31] Originally by: NoNah 2) The Dominix is arguably easier than the Raven for missions. But slower and hence - worse. Just so we're clear, a properly set up Domi will beat a regular cruise Raven for majority of missions timewise, and a pimped Domi will perform very very similar to a pimp CNR, as seen in Magnus Termo-something's thread. My Domi duo is slower overall then Carniflexes CNR duo, but not by much, and my skillset is still lacking, severely so for my alt. If you want mission performance from the Raven variants, that means CNR or Golem. Possibly Torp Raven, though I don't think many of those exist anymore in PvE, in 3x range rig configuration at least. Maybe in low/no sec. Could be wrong about that of course.
dreddish	Posted - 2008.02.21 16:45:00 - [32] golem....end of thread. with standard tech2 mods - havent seen a lev 4 mission that could break the tank. Each missile is doing 1000 damage(x4) cap never goes below 50% 40km tractor/1km tractor speed, combine that with the double sized cargo bay (1225 cargo space) & salvagers - u got an awesomne lev4 killin/isk machine.
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Retreat Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.02.21 16:54:00 - [33] Originally by: dreddish golem....end of thread. Before answering a question it might be wise to read it first.
Arazel Chainfire United System's Commonwealth	Posted - 2008.02.21 17:10:00 - [34] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Neue Ziel The post above 1) Skills have nothing to do with the ship. - While an airplane might be the fastest tool to move from A to B in the real world, if you can't pilot it your better off walking. The Airplane is still fastest. 2) The Dominix is arguably easier than the Raven for missions. But slower and hence - worse. 3) Obviously tank is important, but for a Raven damage output makes a decent portion of the tank. Brakes are important on a car, but you can't win a race by just having the best brakes in the race.(bad analogy sa brakes need to be relative to your speed but...) I wouldn't be so sure about the domi being slower than the raven... Yes, if you use the typical approach of letting your drones loose and going afk, even a thorax would be faster. However, (atm, its on either the first or the second page) if you look at the person's time who went all out with full officer fit, you'll notice that he did the missions almost as fast as some of the "professional mission runners" in their CNR (i'm reffering here to Carniflex's times - solo, the two times were within about a minute or so of each other, with the domi being better on some and the CNR better on the others). Admittedly, he was running with a full officer fit, but if you start scaling it back to a faction fit, it won't be that much worse then Carniflex's times (provided everthing still fits).
Neue Ziel	Posted - 2008.02.21 17:23:00 - [35] 1) Skills have nothing to do with the ship. Uh, no. Skills have everything to do with the ship let alone in this game they determine if you can even undock with it! How fast the "Airplane" is; quite franky is irrelevant here. The OP apparently doesn't have the skills to use a Raven properly. The op is better off getting in the car (ie. Dom) he CAN use which while not as fast will still get him from point A to point B. 2) The Dominix is arguably easier than the Raven for missions. But slower and hence - worse. Except it's not worse then getting into a ship the OP doesn't have the skills to utilize to it's potential and getting wasted in the process. Again the best tool is worthless if you can't use it properly. 3) Obviously tank is important, but for a Raven damage output makes a decent portion of the tank. Brakes are important on a car, but you can't win a race by just having the best brakes in the race.(bad analogy sa brakes need to be relative to your speed but...) Tank isn't important; it's critical. It determines wether you survive and pocket the bounties or explode and wind up with 100 million or more in debt as you try to replace your expensive Gankmobile. Despite all the hype about proper planning sooner or later you're going to find yourself in a bad situatuion. Whether it's Gurista Jamming spam, warp scrambling rats, waving enemies, or you just plain misjudged the mission sooner or later things will not go according to plan. The stronger your tank is the more likely you're going to survive a hard situation. If you can't get your resists into the high seventies or low eighties in the relevant categories you don't have the skill to even consider using the ship on Level 4s. I'd rather be in a ship that can survive argoing the whole room then a ship that's Really fast when things go right and debris when they go wrong. Speedy mission running is worthless if your expenses outweigh your profits.
dreddish	Posted - 2008.02.21 17:51:00 - [36] Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Originally by: dreddish golem....end of thread. Before answering a question it might be wise to read it first. ?? golem is a raven ...if thats what u mean? OP is willing to train....and wants best bs for PVE. the chap wants tips and comments. am i missing something ?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:02:00 - [37] Originally by: Neue Ziel Uh, no. Skills have everything to do with the ship let alone in this game they determine if you can even undock with it! How fast the "Airplane" is; quite franky is irrelevant here. The OP apparently doesn't have the skills to use a Raven properly. The op is better off getting in the car (ie. Dom) he CAN use which while not as fast will still get him from point A to point B. You are both saying the same things, just different ways. Either way, skills do not affect the potential of the ship. Quote: 2) The Dominix is arguably easier than the Raven for missions. But slower and hence - worse. Except it's not worse then getting into a ship the OP doesn't have the skills to utilize to it's potential and getting wasted in the process. Again the best tool is worthless if you can't use it properly. IIRC, the OP doesn't have the requisite 5M in drone skills alone that he'll need to make the Domi outperform a Raven with 5M total in skills. Quote: Tank isn't important; it's critical. ... Speedy mission running is worthless if your expenses outweigh your profits. Indeed - these are both true statements. However, tanking the entire mission easily but taking 3 minutes to kill each BS is more than a little inefficient. There is a balance to be struck, and speaking from experience, the balance is far far far towards the gank side. DPS is a tank too. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:48:00 - [38] Originally by: Liang Nuren DPS is a tank too. -Liang heh just don't go into a plex (or even worse a cosmos plex) with that attitude. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:57:00 - [39] Originally by: Spenz heh just don't go into a plex (or even worse a cosmos plex) with that attitude. No, there are places that it's appropriate, and places that it is not. If DPS wouldn't make a good tank there (which it doesn't), then don't use it. In level 4 missions, DPS is a tank (and a really good one too). -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:57:00 - [40] Edited by: Rialtor on 21/02/2008 19:04:20 The Abaddon is the best mission runner if you're talking about being optimal. If you're serious about mission running you should train up the Abaddon for Blood & Sansha missions, that means flying for an amarrian agent preferably Amarr Navy. The Raven should just be used as backup to the Abaddon. The Abaddon is quite a bit more skill intensive than the Raven though. But to be a true mission *****, you're best bet is the Abaddon as a Primary and a Raven as a backup when you can't turn down the non-sansha, non-blood raider mission. ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

Neue Ziel	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:15:00 - [41] Quote: Either way, skills do not affect the potential of the ship. I think you missed the part where I said, repeatedly, it doesn't matter what the potential of the ship is. If you can't use it, it's worthless. A char with armor tank skills should fly an armor tank ship until they have the skills to be a shield tanker. Quote: In level 4 missions, DPS is a tank (and a really good one too). Okay, go fly a level fours solo with no shield hardners at all then; leave the shield booster at home too. Tank is Tank. If you cannot soak damage adequately nothing else will matter. If the Op doesn't have suffcient sheild tanking and missile skills he has no business in a Raven on a level 4 no matter what it's potential is.
Don Juanito	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Neue Ziel Quote: Either way, skills do not affect the potential of the ship. I think you missed the part where I said, repeatedly, it doesn't matter what the potential of the ship is. If you can't use it, it's worthless. A char with armor tank skills should fly an armor tank ship until they have the skills to be a shield tanker. Quote: In level 4 missions, DPS is a tank (and a really good one too). Okay, go fly a level fours solo with no shield hardners at all then; leave the shield booster at home too. Tank is Tank. If you cannot soak damage adequately nothing else will matter. If the Op doesn't have suffcient sheild tanking and missile skills he has no business in a Raven on a level 4 no matter what it's potential is. if you kill everything before it can do any damage to you id say thats a better tank for pve than soaking damage while you chip away at the npcs. namely because killing faster= more money. this is why the Nighthawk and Vulture are not optimal mission runners. sure they can tank anything, but their dps is low, and therefore their efficiency isnt great. nightmare is still the best.
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:40:00 - [43] Which is best depends heavily on the situation. For really easy missions that aren't going to take long anyway, use a ship that doesn't need ammo - a laser Dominix is surprisingly effective. If there is worthwhile demolition work, ditto. If there are loads of cruisers, use a Drake. If it's heavy on battleships, use a torp or cruise Raven - which, depends on whether the rats like to orbit close (Angels anyone?) The real truth is that there is no ship best for every situation. However, a Raven can do most things, and if you don't want to (or can't) keep a big stable of mission ships then it's probably the best compromise. One more point; optimising the ship completely for each mission can take so long that you'd be better off for time just going out in a cookie-cutter cruise Raven and just change the hardeners and ammo. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Parsival Minmatar The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:43:00 - [44] Edited by: Parsival on 21/02/2008 19:43:53 Quote: Okay, go fly a level fours solo with no shield hardners at all then; leave the shield booster at home too. Tank is Tank. If you cannot soak damage adequately nothing else will matter. If the Op doesn't have suffcient sheild tanking and missile skills he has no business in a Raven on a level 4 no matter what it's potential is. Don't be obtuse, Liangs point is valid in that if you can kill all the rats before they touch your tank then in fact DPS has become your first line of tank. There are many level 4 missions where a pilot who knows what they are doing will not need to touch their booster or repper.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:44:00 - [45] Originally by: Neue Ziel Okay, go fly a level fours solo with no shield hardners at all then; leave the shield booster at home too. Tank is Tank. If you cannot soak damage adequately nothing else will matter. If the Op doesn't have suffcient sheild tanking and missile skills he has no business in a Raven on a level 4 no matter what it's potential is. I really like how you completely neglected the comparison of skills required to make the Domi perform at Raven-like levels. Also, I HAVE run L4's without hardeners, boosters, or reppers. It's not particularly efficient IMO, but it can be done. But go run a L4 without damage mods, and I'll raise you having completed 3-4 missions by the time you finish that one. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.02.21 21:27:00 - [46] Originally by: Liang Nuren IIRC, the OP doesn't have the requisite 5M in drone skills alone that he'll need to make the Domi outperform a Raven with 5M total in skills. That's 3 to 3,5mil, not 5. Still, unlikely to have those at 5 mil total sp, that can't be argued.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 21:35:00 - [47] Originally by: Qui Shon That's 3 to 3,5mil, not 5. Still, unlikely to have those at 5 mil total sp, that can't be argued. The point of the comment was to point out that the Domi will require as many SP in Drones alone as an equivalent Raven pilot has in total - just to get the same level of mission runnin. Well, that's true up to a point of maybe 3-4M SP in drones anyway. This gets compounded by the fact that you can skip whole sections of the skill tree by using faction gear for the Raven. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.02.21 21:48:00 - [48] Yeah, you do need some SP to make the Domi work. But once you have those SP, it will not equal the Raven, it will outdo it, and it will rival the CNR in completion time, though not in tank.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 21:59:00 - [49] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/02/2008 21:59:24 Originally by: Qui Shon Yeah, you do need some SP to make the Domi work. But once you have those SP, it will not equal the Raven, it will outdo it, and it will rival the CNR in completion time, though not in tank. The Domi is a top notch mission runner - there's no denying it. However, the Domi pilot is going to be struggling to complete and/or finish L4's for months while the Raven pilot just whizzes through them with half or less of the total SP. Then by the time the Domi pilot can outperform the Raven, the Raven's upgraded to a CNR with faction fittings from months worth of succeessful and easy mission running, and the Domi is once again behind (or at best, approaching equivalence). -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Jackal79	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:06:00 - [50] Any battleship. Only a few exceptions apply such as - if your going up against angels, don't use an amarr ship (duh). PVE is implemented in the game only as a means to grind isk to do useful or fun things. Only the very hardest complexes can kill a half-competent player, and they're extremely rare. I've never lost a battleship or battlecruiser to rats - only a couple cruisers to 0.0 rats when I was brand new. Loosing any BS/BC to rats is shameful and if it ever happens to you, you should quit eve and subscribe to WoW.

PocketRockets Debiloff's Vanguard Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:18:00 - [51] the one with 10 highslots :)
Parsival Minmatar The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:26:00 - [52] Edited by: Parsival on 21/02/2008 22:26:44 Originally by: Jackal79 Loosing any BS/BC to rats is shameful and if it ever happens to you, you should quit eve and subscribe to WoW. Its easy to forget how difficult it was running missions in T1 fit ships, but I can easily understand how new players not understanding aggro can lose ships. As long as people learn from their ship losses its not shameful. Older players lose ships too, but ususally the cause is wife aggro, falling asleep at the keyboard (missions are excruciatingly boring once your doing The Assault for the 200th time)or multi-accounting and forgetting to warp your high sec mission runner out of the mission before switching to the 0.0 PvP character.
Neue Ziel	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:28:00 - [53] Quote: if you kill everything before it can do any damage to you Except that doesn't happen 100% of the time. Hell, I can't remember it even happening 50% of the time. There are plenty of missions where you get argoed before you can even lock or where the entire room Argoes right after you warp in. Quote: I really like how you completely neglected the comparison of skills required to make the Domi perform at Raven-like levels. I really like how you keep failing to notice I don't care about Raven-like levels. This isn't about you, Ravens, or efficency. It is about what can the OP step into right now and use without getting shot out of his ship. If he has NO shield tanking or missile skills that isn't a Raven. Can he train for a Raven sometime in the future? Sure. But that's a lot of weeks and months of skill time to have to wait to start level 4s. He's better off what he has NOW; I like how YOU neglect what this discussion is really about. Quote: Also, I HAVE run L4's without hardeners, boosters, or reppers. It's not particularly efficient IMO, but it can be done. Uh-huh. Okay; sure. Quote: But go run a L4 without damage mods, and I'll raise you having completed 3-4 missions by the time you finish that one. See above. This whole thread began as adivce for a guy starting on Level 4s with an Armor Tanking skill set. You point him at a Raven. He does not now, at this moment, have the skills to use a Raven well let alone safely. That you can't seem to grasp this by now continues to amaze me. If you want to belive you're king of the mission runners and you can complete every mission in the game blindfolded with a single launcher, no shields tanking your hull fine. You're king of the mission runners. You're completely awesome! But don't point some poor n00b to a ship he can't really use. The point is what the OP can do based on the skill set he just gave us. Not what YOU, with your tons of Missile skill points that he doesn't have can do. Quote: The point of the comment was to point out that the Domi will require as many SP in Drones alone as an equivalent Raven pilot has in total - just to get the same level of mission runnin. Quote: Except the Op just stated his main is Gallante and he's piloted Dominxes in the past.
Parsival Minmatar The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:34:00 - [54] Originally by: Neue Ziel Except that doesn't happen 100% of the time. Hell, I can't remember it even happening 50% of the time. There are plenty of missions where you get argoed before you can even lock or where the entire room Argoes right after you warp in. Which is a key weakness of a drone based ship like the Domi, you drop drones and often you'll pull full room aggro. In a missile or long range turret based ship it is much easier to selectively aggro groups of rats and kill them off before they ever come close to threatening your tank. You don't understand that because you rely on the most unreliable PVE DPS system in EVE... drones.
Parsival Minmatar The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:45:00 - [55] Edited by: Parsival on 21/02/2008 22:45:02 Originally by: Neue Ziel This whole thread began as adivce for a guy starting on Level 4s with an Armor Tanking skill set. You point him at a Raven. Originally by: Takari Jin Can someone guide me to the ships I described above? Which would fit with what I am looking for best? I am willing to train upon shield and missile if Raven is best to fit into the scenario. Seems the OP disagrees and is happy to be pointed toward a Raven.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:46:00 - [56] Originally by: Neue Ziel Except that doesn't happen 100% of the time. Hell, I can't remember it even happening 50% of the time. There are plenty of missions where you get argoed before you can even lock or where the entire room Argoes right after you warp in. If he can't complete them with a Raven, he certainly won't be able to complete them with a Domi. Quote: I really like how you keep failing to notice I don't care about Raven-like levels. This isn't about you, Ravens, or efficency. It is about what can the OP step into right now and use without getting shot out of his ship. No, it is about efficiency. You see, you're asking him to step into a skill intensive ship that he is in no way ready for... and is in fact far closer to being ready for a Raven than he is a Domi! Also, read the title of the thread again and come back. Quote: Uh-huh. Okay; sure. There ARE missions which are difficult, but if he couldn't take them in a Raven, he won't take them in a Domi either. The Domi requires much more SP than he has invested to get anywhere near the efficiency to run L4 missions. Quote: This whole thread began as adivce for a guy starting on Level 4s with an Armor Tanking skill set. You point him at a Raven. No, I am pointing out that he's not sufficiently far enough on the skillset to ignore the Raven for the beast that it is. Honesty, he's got... what, 2 weeks in armor tanking? He can get near to better equivalence in a week of shield tanking skill training. Quote: Except the Op just stated his main is Gallante and he's piloted Dominxes in the past. Piloted Domis with his main. Originally by: "OP" Again, this is mainly for kill mission lvl 4. Currently here are some of my skill Engineer 5 Energy Op 5 Electronic 5 Mechanic 5 Hull Upgrade 5 Armor repair 5 Everything else is pretty low. Just provided for reference. Note the "Everything else is pretty low" part. That includes gunnery and drone skills. He is FAR closer to a Raven than a Domi from what he's told us. -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:52:00 - [57] Originally by: Parsival You don't understand that because you rely on the most unreliable PVE DPS system in EVE... drones. Drones have their drawbacks and their limitations, there's no denying that. I wouldn't call them unreliable though. They also have their benefits, like immunity to EW for instance.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:56:00 - [58] I did some missions with a faction/officer fitted abaddon, it was scary fast. Now the guy is using a paladin and its even scarier. No tank. PURE gank. Seriously dead rats cant fire back. --------------------------------- Oh noes! Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Parsival Minmatar The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:57:00 - [59] Originally by: Qui Shon They also have their benefits, like immunity to EW for instance. Raven does that better too with FoF's.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:58:00 - [60] Originally by: Qui Shon Drones have their drawbacks and their limitations, there's no denying that. I wouldn't call them unreliable though. They also have their benefits, like immunity to EW for instance. That's very true, I used to mission with drones, and that was one of the huge perks. That and the AFK'ness of it. When I went for the Raven, I found that FOF's fill that gap nicely. ;-) -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)



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