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Takari Jin
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.02.20 18:11:00 -
[1]
Hello all wise ones of the forum,
Currently i am training an alt to do mainly mission lvl 4 for isk and such, and I have come down to 3 battle ships. HOwever, I do not know which would serve best for the purpose of mission whoring.
1) Dominix: My main is Gallente, and I do have some experience with this ship, great ship, with drones no need for ammo. Can put up a good tank.
2) Apoc: Laser base, no need for ammo, good armor tanking?
3) Raven: the whole world use it, so what so good a bout it?
Again, this is mainly for kill mission lvl 4. Currently here are some of my skill
Engineer 5
Energy Op 5
Electronic 5
Mechanic 5
Hull Upgrade 5
Armor repair 5
Everything else is pretty low.
Can someone guide me to the ships I described above? Which would fit with what I am looking for best? I am willing to train upon shield and missile if Raven is best to fit into the scenario.
Please give me comments, guidance, tips
Thank you so much in advance.
------------------------------------
Thinking of a sig, can you help me? |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.20 18:22:00 -
[2]
The Raven has selectable damage types, and the low slots can be occupied by damage mods instead of a tank.
The Domi has selectable damage types, but has to deal with tracking and drone aggro.
Remember: Missions are all about how much gank you can put on the ship.
I chose the Raven and haven't looked back.
-Liang
--
My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!) |
Cavazos
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Posted - 2008.02.20 18:51:00 -
[3]
ok lol its not about the gank cus if it was people would die because some people suck at putting out massive amounts of damage its about knowing wat ur going up against and knowing how to kill them and wat spawns waht and such so pretty much strategy
Ive used all 3 ships for me all 3 are very good tankers
my apoc with the right setup only takes 1 large armor rep to tank a lvl 4
while my domi with a good setup takes 2 (for safety reasons =p)
My raven can jus sit at a distance and kill from long range with cruises and such while jus running a large SB t1 maybe t2 if really needed
but with all 3 ships im hitting either from 70km away or close as 2km which is easy because drones or missiles kill things close and easy but pick wat u want m8 all 3 good ships if ur skills r good
like i fly all 4 races and i was mainly trained in gunnery with around 7m SP in it and i was below 1mil in missiles but recently been training them hard and im at like 4.1mil so yea but then again i needed t2 Heavies for my Nighthawk lol but yea go with w/e u want we dont make up ur mind for u u choose wat u want and wat u like and wat u think you'll do best in
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.20 18:55:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Cavazos
ok lol its not about the gank cus if it was people would die because some people suck at putting out massive amounts of damage its about knowing wat ur going up against and knowing how to kill them and wat spawns waht and such so pretty much strategy
If you fit any more tank than is absolutely necessary, then you're wasting time better spent elsewhere.
Missions is *ALL* about how much gank you can squeeze on the ship while not warping out or losing it.
-Liang
--
My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!) |
BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
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Posted - 2008.02.20 19:23:00 -
[5]
Raven ftw
Apoc you can't chose the kind of damage
...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
Arazel Chainfire
United System's Commonwealth
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Posted - 2008.02.20 19:54:00 -
[6]
Depends upon how fast you want to run your missions, how pimped you want your ship to get, and how much attention you're willing to pay to it as you run the mission.
For the least necessary interaction, get a domi and use a permarunning active tank (t2 fit will allow you to run most lvl 4's full aggro). Just get full aggro on the room, let your drones loose, and go do something else. If you want a more involved role, switch to sentry drones, use sentry drone rigs and railguns in your highslots and start interacting. Another neat thing about the domi is that it can be either armortanked or shieldtanked (talk to pottsy if you want a passive shield tank  ). One reason why i might recommend this is you can make money with minimal attention to your computer, or you (since this is an alt) can have your alt running missions in the background while you do pvp stuff on your other character. Another thing about going the domi path is that you can later train up railguns and such and use either A. a kronos or B. a megathron (or one of its variations).
If you want to be able to run missions quickly with the least amount of skilltraining necessary, get a raven. With less than 1 mil sp* devoted to the raven, you can run lvl 4's fairly easily. You can also (with a faction tank) have a permarunning tank and FOF missiles for afk goodiness, or upgrade to CNR and try to beat mission running times from some of the best.
And if you want to gimp yourself, you can use the apoc. No offense intended, but even after the upcoming change the apoc would not be the best ship to use for this. Starting out, maybe - it has enough cap to be able to run an awsome tank, and only a few cap mods are needed for you to put out okish dps from your guns. The only reason why I might suggest this route is for learning amaar ships, to later use with first, the abaddon, second, the paladin, or third, the nightmare. However, there is no real way to afk with any of the amaar ships.
Minmatar - if this is a mission runner, i suggest that you forget minmatar entirely. The only reason why you should train minmatar is if you eventually want to pvp.
Hope that helps.
-Arazel
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
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Posted - 2008.02.20 20:03:00 -
[7]
Tripple heatsink megapulse geddon and a good Amarr agent selection to make sure you only get EM weak rats. 
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T Pain
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Posted - 2008.02.20 20:08:00 -
[8]
dude liang shut up i know wat im talkin bout ive ran missions in all of them with gank setups for missions and they dont work because you'll have to warp out if u have gank setup like my gank vexor i jus messed around and did lvl 2's with it it did around 150 damage a shot and yea thats pretty good for it trus me ik wat im talkin bout i work with all kinds of setups ive worked with minmatar and caldari HAC setups, all 4 races BS's setups and everything below them and soon Command ships setups i work on setups and such so ik how easy it is to take on certain ships so dont try to competenull
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.20 20:14:00 -
[9]
I dont think you understand him.
Mission running fitting process:
1) fit absolute minimum in tank
2) fit absolute maximum gank
3) profit!
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.20 20:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sokratesz
I dont think you understand him.
Mission running fitting process:
1) fit absolute minimum in tank
2) fit absolute maximum gank
3) profit!
Sigh, I thought I'd spelled it out adequately.
-Liang
--
My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!) |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.20 20:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 20/02/2008 20:23:17
Originally by: Arazel Chainfire
Minmatar - if this is a mission runner, i suggest that you forget minmatar entirely. The only reason why you should train minmatar is if you eventually want to pvp.
Uhm, hardly.
Even the Phoon can perma-run a dual large repper, 85%+ resist tank, while carrying 175m3 of drones, 4 ACs/Artillery and 4 cruise/Torp launchers. Its damage can be higher than the Raven with as strong of a tank and it is a LOT faster flying from gate to gate.
Just takes more skill points to make it perform.
Originally by: Audri Fisher
On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Zoe Midoru
Phoenix Aeronautics
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Posted - 2008.02.20 20:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: T Pain
dude liang shut up i know wat im talkin bout ive ran missions in all of them with gank setups for missions and they dont work because you'll have to warp out if u have gank setup like my gank vexor i jus messed around and did lvl 2's with it it did around 150 damage a shot and yea thats pretty good for it trus me ik wat im talkin bout i work with all kinds of setups ive worked with minmatar and caldari HAC setups, all 4 races BS's setups and everything below them and soon Command ships setups i work on setups and such so ik how easy it is to take on certain ships so dont try to competenull
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=171
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.02.20 20:54:00 -
[13]
Best for Guri/Serp/Eom - Domi/Kronos/NavyMega
Best for Sansha/Blood/Drones - Nightmare/Pally/AbaGeddon
Good for everything - CNR/Golem, also equal or even best at some missions.
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Don Juanito
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Posted - 2008.02.20 20:59:00 -
[14]
Nightmare is the best hands down. It does so much raw dps that against all save angels it still outperforms a raven (unless you're still fitting torps, in which case, you dont get as much range as a nightmare anyways). Fit tachyons, fit a gist, fit 3 faction heatsinks, and watch everything melt so fast you'll spend more time locking than shooting.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.20 21:01:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 20/02/2008 20:23:17
Originally by: Arazel Chainfire
Minmatar - if this is a mission runner, i suggest that you forget minmatar entirely. The only reason why you should train minmatar is if you eventually want to pvp.
Uhm, hardly.
Even the Phoon can perma-run a dual large repper, 85%+ resist tank, while carrying 175m3 of drones, 4 ACs/Artillery and 4 cruise/Torp launchers. Its damage can be higher than the Raven with as strong of a tank and it is a LOT faster flying from gate to gate.
Just takes more skill points to make it perform.
I am sorry, but with a tank good enough for L4s, the phoon does not come close to the effective (and drones are anything but effective unless you use sentries which means you need cruise and arties which have horrible dps on their own) dps of a properly set up Raven (that means torps and no permatank though). And it is utterly outclassed by CNR or Abaddon and the other top end laserboats.
Sure it works, but what makes a mission ship GOOD is finishing as fast as possible. And that is where Minmatar fail. Just like their pilots seem to be unable to realize that lol.
Minmatar is the best for PvP (imho anyway) and definitely the worst for PvE.
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Shedhead
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Posted - 2008.02.20 21:02:00 -
[16]
Originally by: T Pain
dude liang shut up i know wat im talkin bout ive ran missions in all of them with gank setups for missions and they dont work because you'll have to warp out if u have gank setup like my gank vexor i jus messed around and did lvl 2's with it it did around 150 damage a shot and yea thats pretty good for it trus me ik wat im talkin bout i work with all kinds of setups ive worked with minmatar and caldari HAC setups, all 4 races BS's setups and everything below them and soon Command ships setups i work on setups and such so ik how easy it is to take on certain ships so dont try to competenull
YA MAN U NO WAT UR TLKIN BOUT INNIT
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NoNah
Tenth Legion Holdings
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.20 22:31:00 -
[17]
It hurts to admit it. But Liang is right, and this thread should have ended at reply one.
Postcount: 858028
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2008.02.20 22:50:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
I am sorry, but with a tank good enough for L4s
That's usually the issue. Most people don't realize that a tank good enough for level 4's can consist of a single repper, 2 or 3 hardeners and enough cap mods to keep the guns and repper running. As long as you put out enough DPS to kill the enemy before they get into their optimal range.
All that dual T2 rep with a ship filled to the brim with cap rechargers is only neccesary for lazy afk play and/or stupid tactics.
Quote:
Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Lena Kanto
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Posted - 2008.02.21 01:17:00 -
[19]
I haven't seen Liang post anything wrong in the past months and I read a few of his or her posts daily, just to add to his credability if the OP is in doubt.
Personally chose Raven too and never looked back either. I only few other battleships in PvE due to different skillsets on alts.
- The range (175km cruise)
- Damage-type choise (missiles for each damage type) increasing effective dps
- Zero cap usage from launchers and thus more cap for tank
- Ability to put plenty (3, or even 4) dmg mods in the lows without sacrifising significant tank for which you have 6 med slots
- No tracking problems, no need to wait for drones to fly 30km, very low signature radius on cruise missiles (250 or so vs 400 of large turret ammo)
One musn't forget that effective dps is what you need to focus on.
Gunboats might get better dps than a cruise raven on paper, but when you lose 20% dps to transversal, or often even 100% on frigates and 50%+ on cruisers, and you have a high signature radius on your ammo, and you have fixed damage types, you lose out on alot of effective dps.
If you ontop of that you eat cap with your lasers or hybrids and you need to mix tank and gank in the lowslots.
Raven simply is the best T1 battleship for lvl 4 missions.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.21 07:52:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
I am sorry, but with a tank good enough for L4s
That's usually the issue. Most people don't realize that a tank good enough for level 4's can consist of a single repper, 2 or 3 hardeners and enough cap mods to keep the guns and repper running. As long as you put out enough DPS to kill the enemy before they get into their optimal range.
All that dual T2 rep with a ship filled to the brim with cap rechargers is only neccesary for lazy afk play and/or stupid tactics.
The problem with the phoon is that you cannot push the dps up that far for a long range setup due to the inborn suckage of arties and cruise as well as split slots halving the efficiency of damage mods. So you need a better tank than say an Abaddon (which also gets a resist bonus and really only needs to tank EM and Therm most of the time if used properly), which again cuts into your damage mods, and this just cumulates into making the phoon a fairly average mission runner despite possibly good EFT dps.
Sure, for Amarr missions the phoon is also okay tanking-wise, with the racial EM bonus and stuff. But the effective dps is SO inferior to that of an Abaddon that it really cannot be called a good mission ship.
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Lara Renquist
Minmatar
The Phoenix Confederacy
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Posted - 2008.02.21 08:39:00 -
[21]
The Snake,.... period.
it outclasses Raven and Cnr easely, still need to buy Golem for comparison.
Commanding officer Of The Phoenix Confederacy
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Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.21 10:36:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 21/02/2008 10:39:49
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 21/02/2008 10:37:36
Originally by: Zoe Midoru
Originally by: T Pain
dude liang shut up i know wat im talkin bout ive ran missions in all of them with gank setups for missions and they dont work because you'll have to warp out if u have gank setup like my gank vexor i jus messed around and did lvl 2's with it it did around 150 damage a shot and yea thats pretty good for it trus me ik wat im talkin bout i work with all kinds of setups ive worked with minmatar and caldari HAC setups, all 4 races BS's setups and everything below them and soon Command ships setups i work on setups and such so ik how easy it is to take on certain ships so dont try to competenull
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=171
Just what i was looking for. :)
People like this really should get pistol-whipped. :)
Originally by: Lara Renquist
The Snake,.... period.
it outclasses Raven and Cnr easely, still need to buy Golem for comparison.
In what way ?
I got one as a present, fitted it with only DG stuff, but i have no base of comparisson with CNR.
I'm using DG 425's atm as rails.
I use Raven, rattler, Domi with blasters - on some Angel missions and Serpentis.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.02.21 10:43:00 -
[23]
Snake Plissken maybe 
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Lara Renquist
Minmatar
The Phoenix Confederacy
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Posted - 2008.02.21 10:48:00 -
[24]
Snake has more possibilities to fit as you please,... that and the base shield,+ 50% speed bonus of cruise and torp that almost nullefies flight time.... if you have the sp to notice it that is
Commanding officer Of The Phoenix Confederacy
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Don Juanito
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Posted - 2008.02.21 11:53:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lara Renquist
Snake has more possibilities to fit as you please,... that and the base shield,+ 50% speed bonus of cruise and torp that almost nullefies flight time.... if you have the sp to notice it that is
you get that with caldari bs 5 on a raven anyways. The 'snake offers an extra low for another damage mod, but other than that, no real huge dps gain, and the tank really isnt needed. the cnr is better with that extra launcher, but you'll probably be using cruise, which have pretty crappy dps with most fits (and even with great skills and implants and a bunch of damage mods you're not going to come close to breaking 1000).
nightmare on the other hand, tanks just as well as a cnr, while putting out a lot more damage, and looking cooler to boot 
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Lara Renquist
Minmatar
The Phoenix Confederacy
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Posted - 2008.02.21 11:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Don Juanito
Originally by: Lara Renquist
Snake has more possibilities to fit as you please,... that and the base shield,+ 50% speed bonus of cruise and torp that almost nullefies flight time.... if you have the sp to notice it that is
you get that with caldari bs 5 on a raven anyways. The 'snake offers an extra low for another damage mod, but other than that, no real huge dps gain, and the tank really isnt needed. the cnr is better with that extra launcher, but you'll probably be using cruise, which have pretty crappy dps with most fits (and even with great skills and implants and a bunch of damage mods you're not going to come close to breaking 1000).
nightmare on the other hand, tanks just as well as a cnr, while putting out a lot more damage, and looking cooler to boot
True in most cases, however if you talk about caldari 5 on a raven you have to count it aswell on the snake, and yeh Cruise ftw no slow ass torps that hit **** on everything but battleships :)
Commanding officer Of The Phoenix Confederacy
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.21 15:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lara Renquist
True in most cases, however if you talk about caldari 5 on a raven you have to count it aswell on the snake, and yeh Cruise ftw no slow ass torps that hit **** on everything but battleships :)
You might have a point if the Snake had enough fitting to actually put 425s into the two extra highs. But since it does not, it does not hold a candle to the CNR in PvE.
Of course, seeing how you have no clue what torps can still do, it is not surprising you have no clue what a CNR can do over a Snake either. Tbpfh the Snake is no better than a standard Raven for missions, since it has exactly the same gank, and the extra tank is not needed. Unless maybe you suck at missionrunning by default ;)
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Neue Ziel
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Posted - 2008.02.21 15:24:00 -
[28]
You know; why don't you Caldari players do the rest of us a favor: Get together, write up all your arguments complete with statistics and missioning philosophy, publish a big, long, dull article stating your case and then include a link in your signature. That way when this topic comes up again, as it inevitably does, you can just answer with a one-liner. "See my signature for why the Raven is the greatest battleship EVAR!" If nothing else you would save yourselves a lot of time. It would fit with your philosophy of "Finish missions as quickly as possible." and we wouldn't have to read the exact same arguments over and over again week after week year after year.
What battleship is best depends on what you want out of the mission. Ravens might as well be called "my first mission runner." You barely have to know anything to pilot one. HOWEVER; while they can do level 4s that doesn't by itself guarntee success. I have seen more then a few pilots with low skills lose their Ravens when they did something stupid particularly when they tried to solo a level 4 without the skill points to put their money where their mouth was.
The Raven is very unforgiving in that respect because it wallows like a pig trying to warp out. No battle ship is particuarly good in that respect but it's something to be mindful of. Sometimes you'd be much better off with a Drake and a little more skill. Hell, you'd be better off using whatever ship you have the best skills in. If you're primarily trained as an Armor tanker and you suddenly switch to a Raven just because all the Caldari players tell you how great it is expect to loose a dozen Ravens before your skills come up to snuff. If you're going to buy a Raven make sure you have the skill to use it efficently before you run out and buy one. These Caldari types don't ever think about that when they laud their flying gothing cathedrials. YOU may not have the skills they do with missiles and shields. That Raven might well be flying death trap for you.
It's worth noting that Missions in any missile boat are also very dull. I've used a representative sample of Battleships in Level 4s and of all of them Missile boats are the least fun. Running in a Dom or a Maelstrom is not nearly is fast but it's not half as boring either; you have to half-use your brain and figure out what you're doing.
Level 4s can be done in a Dominix. Yes it's harder but it's also signifigantly less boring. If you're primarily trained as an Armor tanker/Droner it will make better use of your existing skills. Dominixes are signifigantly cheaper then Ravens and much easier to insure. You can replace a Dominix and all it's mods for about what it costs to by the Raven bare and I've done it more then once.
My advice: Take stock of your skills. If your skills in armor tanking, drones, hybrids etc. are signifigantly higher then your shield tanking skills and missile skills. Don't run out and buy a Raven. WAIT. Get a Dominix, insure it and work with that. If you decide missile boats are for you train up your shield skills to 4 or higher in all the relevant skills. Don't listen to the hype about it being all about the Gank, If you can't take incoming fire you're just going to be flushing an expensive ship down the toliet. THEN work on your missile skills until they are similarly high. When you've done all that then get the Raven. Or better yet, forget it, train up command ships, and get a Nighthawk instead.
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NoNah
Tenth Legion Holdings
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.21 15:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Neue Ziel
The post above
1) Skills have nothing to do with the ship.
- While an airplane might be the fastest tool to move from A to B in the real world, if you can't pilot it your better off walking. The Airplane is still fastest.
2) The Dominix is arguably easier than the Raven for missions. But slower and hence - worse.
3) Obviously tank is important, but for a Raven damage output makes a decent portion of the tank. Brakes are important on a car, but you can't win a race by just having the best brakes in the race.(bad analogy sa brakes need to be relative to your speed but...)
Postcount: 593837
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Lena Kanto
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Posted - 2008.02.21 16:06:00 -
[30]
Damn, do I need glasses? I really didn't see a rattlesnake on the OP's list, point it to me please.
Really, the OP is limited in choise. You do not help by suggesting some faction ship with faction fittings.
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