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Taedrin Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:41:00 - [61] I rewrote this post 3 times already, so I'm just going to say this: Rells: Please think about what you are saying before you hit that post button. I HIGHLY doubt that there is ANYONE who works on EVE, who has not played it. If you know that, then please don't resort to using Ad Hominem to argue your point. Insulting the devs does not, a proper argument make.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:48:00 - [62] Edited by: Avon on 21/02/2008 22:48:54 Just to clarify my position: I bought in to Eve right back in the beta. The promise was for a ruthless PvP based game. We were told there would be no compromise on that. We were told that CCP would stay true to the vision, and that it would not be compromised for popularity. We were told that CCP would rather that Eve was the biggest niche mmog, rather than another mainstream effort. Now, I fully understand the pressures on CCP to succeed, and I don't blame them for making Eve what it is now. However, it really isn't what we bought in to in the early days. It isn't the vision that kept a loyal subscriber-base paying up each month, keeping the vision alive. I understand that people who have joined later have a different viewpoint, and I accept that pov entirely, but please do not tell us that we aren't allowed to be dissapointed that our dream has been taken away from us. We are entitled to be a little frustrated. Eve is a great game, of that there is no doubt. It is not, however, the uncompromising PvP game we were promised. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries United For 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.21 23:01:00 - [63] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 21/02/2008 22:48:54 Just to clarify my position: I bought in to Eve right back in the beta. The promise was for a ruthless PvP based game. We were told there would be no compromise on that. We were told that CCP would stay true to the vision, and that it would not be compromised for popularity. We were told that CCP would rather that Eve was the biggest niche mmog, rather than another mainstream effort. Now, I fully understand the pressures on CCP to succeed, and I don't blame them for making Eve what it is now. However, it really isn't what we bought in to in the early days. It isn't the vision that kept a loyal subscriber-base paying up each month, keeping the vision alive. I understand that people who have joined later have a different viewpoint, and I accept that pov entirely, but please do not tell us that we aren't allowed to be dissapointed that our dream has been taken away from us. We are entitled to be a little frustrated. Eve is a great game, of that there is no doubt. It is not, however, the uncompromising PvP game we were promised. How many of the changes have been caused by PvP players taking the micky to the extreme? You can't deney that its happened like that in some cases Avon. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.21 23:04:00 - [64] Originally by: nahtoh How many of the changes have been caused by PvP players taking the micky to the extreme? You can't deney that its happened like that in some cases Avon. Sure, some. But I don't think that fixing broken mechanics is the same as introducing high-sec isk spawning by chatting to an agent, for example. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Rhaegor Stormborn Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.02.21 23:32:00 - [65] Originally by: Avon Remember what happened to Ultima Online? Yeah, exactly. Hi CCP. Volition Cult Recruitment Post
Alvar Ursidae Amarr Oceanic Soldiers of Fortune Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.02.21 23:58:00 - [66] Face it Rells, you're a meglomaniacal whiney ***. You insult the people who make the game, and expect them to take you seriously. But you are so wrapped up in how absolutely perfect you are, that you ignore common sense. You know, things like using cloaks on faction fitted Rapiers in 0.0 etc...and subsequently losing nearly 1bil in two ships in a few minutes. The undock change makes things interesting, but you are so negative about everything, paranoid about everyone, and in love with yourself to think of the good it will bring. So as you asked the other day, why do you bother playing? 1 Curse killed your faction fitted curse, AND your alt's Rapier, with your high SP total. And now you can the makers, the community, and everyone that's NOT licking your *. Why do you bother playing any more? Seriously. Why do you bother? OH, sorry I know, you have to bring up your psy-ops and krav maga.... Then there are the sycophantic follwers you have to do that *** loving you like so much. Stop contributing to the whine - build a bridge and get over it.
Gemini Zero Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:34:00 - [67] ruh roh ibtl
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:36:00 - [68] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Jason Travers What I think is funny about this whole post is that it seems all the downhill changes to the game were from whiners. Now the ironic part. Almost all the postings (whines) that got game changes were from the PVP community as most of the board posters are PVPers and they clame itÆs the carebears ruining the game for PVPers when it is actually themselves doing it ROFL. No, you simply arent understanding. That there are issues in the game... yes. That these issues need to be fixed ... yes. That they should be fixed with kneejerk reactions based upon percieved opinions of the forum posters .... NO. I gave two examples before of poor process. Both of them driven by the whine and both the WRONG solution to the issue at hand and both of them with almost NO CONSIDERATION of their impact on the wider game So you complain about CCP responding to whine posts, yet you are one of the top forum whiners in the game. Are you like one of those child molesters who volunteer for chemical castration because they know they are evil and cannot stop themselves? Are you asking for CCP to ban you and other whiners from the forum so that we aren't constantly inundated with your BS and to save you form yourselves? Please god tell me that's what you are asking for. ----------------------------------------------------
Lindsay Fox	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:38:00 - [69] I think the problem here is one of attitude. I view the constant nerfing, random changes etc as simply another facet of the harsh experience that is Eve. Adapt or die. I really couldn't give a crap who is being listened to and who isn't. If it ever gets to the point where Eve is so different from what I originally enjoyed that I can no longer enjoy it, then I'll leave. I find it interesting that this aspect of the game, this 'OMG they listened to the whiners and now my fun is ruined' is exactly what happens in real life. The government makes and changes laws regularly based on an extremely vocal minority, and these changes will often cause businesses to become unprofitable, communities become unrecognisable...hell people sometimes end up in jail because the rules have changed and things they used to be able to do are no longer allowed. If you can't handle the change aspect of Eve, you haven't got much hope of getting the most out of life in general.
Barry Steelcross	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:51:00 - [70] Rells are you sure you're certed for "Advanced Whine"?
Alvar Ursidae Amarr Oceanic Soldiers of Fortune Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:56:00 - [71] Originally by: Barry Steelcross Rells are you sure you're certed for "Advanced Whine"? FTW!
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2008.02.22 01:02:00 - [72] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 21/02/2008 22:48:54 Just to clarify my position: I bought in to Eve right back in the beta. The promise was for a ruthless PvP based game. We were told there would be no compromise on that. We were told that CCP would stay true to the vision, and that it would not be compromised for popularity. We were told that CCP would rather that Eve was the biggest niche mmog, rather than another mainstream effort. Now, I fully understand the pressures on CCP to succeed, and I don't blame them for making Eve what it is now. However, it really isn't what we bought in to in the early days. It isn't the vision that kept a loyal subscriber-base paying up each month, keeping the vision alive. I understand that people who have joined later have a different viewpoint, and I accept that pov entirely, but please do not tell us that we aren't allowed to be dissapointed that our dream has been taken away from us. We are entitled to be a little frustrated. Eve is a great game, of that there is no doubt. It is not, however, the uncompromising PvP game we were promised. Every single word above is SO GOD DAMN TRUE that I had to wipe tears out of my face. I started in beta as well and felt ever since revelations 1.0 that eve is fading more and more away from the great dream the devs once shared with us a dark harsh cruel world centered around pvp. it somehow failed Avon, you are definately the smartest arguing person on earth right behind DigitalCommunist. congrats Greetings Grim
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.22 01:05:00 - [73] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 21/02/2008 06:38:51 I remember when the developers of this game had a vision. They pursued the vision and told anyone who didnt like it to suck it up or get out. The vision was based on PvP and balance of the game. Im sorry to say that is no longer the case. Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. There was the famous nano-phoon imbalance that caused a massive imbalance in the game for months despite being profusely reported by testers. There was also the famous ECM nerf; people whines about ECM ships and then CCP whacked it with a stick without any consideration about the wider impact on the game. It took them 4 or 5 months to come out with a fix to ths ships they crippled. The story goes on and on and continues to be messed up. Now there are developers making changes to the game that no nothing about the game. In fact I would venture to say some of them have never even played the game. The prime example is the interdictor speed nerf. Only someone who has not even played the game could make the asinine statement that nano ships are impossible to catch even with dedicated web or nos ships. Only a person that has never flown an interdictor would come to the stupid conclusion that because the Sabre is the fastest dictor, all of them should be speed nerfed. And only someone with very little experience in the game would categorically remove undocks from the game for the purposes of spreading out people coming out of Jita IV-4. So why the changes? Quite simply its the loudest whine on these forums -- forums that have, in the past, told people to commit suicide in real life and laughed when someone did. This SEWER is driving the game down the road of WOW. Because the people here lack imagination and skill in PvP it is being dumbed down, patch by patch. To what end I wonder? To catch the WoW crowd? Is it now just another studio with care only of money? Where is the vision now? There should be a requirement that all devs have to play this game for more than 1000 hours over half a year before being allowed to propose any changes to the game. They should have to participate in PvP and in alliance warfare and 0.0 living before making pathetic changes like nerfing all undocks for a trite reason. They need to do this before the game totally explodes. They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game. Yes, I know I'm about to get flamed but I dont really give a (water retaining structure) anymore. Ive said my piece. /signed Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2008.02.22 01:12:00 - [74] Originally by: Avon Originally by: nahtoh How many of the changes have been caused by PvP players taking the micky to the extreme? You can't deney that its happened like that in some cases Avon. Sure, some. But I don't think that fixing broken mechanics is the same as introducing high-sec isk spawning by chatting to an agent, for example. back in beta and 2003, as far as i remember, I thought that agents were ONLY introduced to be a stepstone to player created missions for pvp targets. I could never belive my eyes everytime they advanced npc agent missions more and more. I thought for what reason does ccp put so much effort in a system which will be gone soon anyway. For me in the beginning npc agents stayed to give newbees!!! a chance to learn more about combat however I never ever envisioned it to become a profession and all that in high sec. Greetings Grim
Kalil d'Maelstromo D.M.T inc	Posted - 2008.02.22 02:29:00 - [75] Originally by: Gemini Zero Originally by: Rells Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. Rells whines about the way the market works: Linkage ...dev's change market Rells whines about invincible motherships: Linkage ...dev's introduce heavy dictors ending the invincible mothership Rells whines about regularly spawning complexes: Linkage ...dev's change complexes to explorable content making them more accessible to the masses Rells whines about speed battleships, weak amarr ships, remote DD detonation, t2 bpo lotto, and carrier jumping of supplies Linkage ...devs nerfed speed mods, boosted amarr, nerfed remote dd, removed the lotto, and nerfed carrier jumping of supplies Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far... Heh if I remember I will be sending youa lil'isk dontation for that post, feel free to remind me ;-) Originally by: Thor Xian I use a named WCS called "Situational Awareness".
Richard Phallus	Posted - 2008.02.22 02:30:00 - [76] Originally by: Barry Steelcross Rells are you sure you're certed for "Advanced Whine"? Know your limit, Whine within it! -- For heresy against CCP by posting images of the sacrificial goat Zulupark you are banished for two weeks - Wrangler
FluffyBunnyPuPu COAD Alts United	Posted - 2008.02.22 02:44:00 - [77] Edited by: FluffyBunnyPuPu on 22/02/2008 02:44:24
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries United For 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.22 03:00:00 - [78] Originally by: Avon Originally by: nahtoh How many of the changes have been caused by PvP players taking the micky to the extreme? You can't deney that its happened like that in some cases Avon. Sure, some. But I don't think that fixing broken mechanics is the same as introducing high-sec isk spawning by chatting to an agent, for example. Point, can eject mechanics in counter point I am sure some of the same type of comments the rells is making when that came out... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Jack Rips	Posted - 2008.02.22 04:05:00 - [79] Originally by: Taedrin I rewrote this post 3 times already, so I'm just going to say this: Rells: Please think about what you are saying before you hit that post button. I HIGHLY doubt that there is ANYONE who works on EVE, who has not played it. If you know that, then please don't resort to using Ad Hominem to argue your point. Insulting the devs does not, a proper argument make. Who do you think you are Yoda! (a propa argument make?) i for one doubt Rells set out to insult the devs, i think the fella is upset that there is yet more nerfing. I am as well, i for one hate spending time training a skill or multiple skills to do a job that sed skills where intended to do only to have them nerfed. I have been playing eve long enough to have felt the sting of the nerf bat, i'm caldari and i still havent forgiven ccp for the missile nerf's. I bet the nerf bat gets you one day. You will want to complain, i do hope myself or Rells is around to see your post. "A proper argument make is this?"
Hippy Dave	Posted - 2008.02.22 04:12:00 - [80] So ok a little background on me first, i was around just after launch and played for around 4 months then left due to RL issues and the fact that the game wasnt really that playable at launch. I recently returned and am impressed with how the game has progressed over the years. First point to the OP, if you are the hardened Eve king you suggest you are surely you have seen this happen hundreds of times, even back when i first played nearly every nerfbat was brought on by constant whining from sections of the player base. Its no different now, and i guarantee if they ignored everyone and did their own thing that you'd probably whine about that. Also as some one else here pointed out, 9 times out of 10 the reason they wield the nerfbat is because a minority of players latch onto an exploit and ram it so hard down everyones throats that action has to be taken. I remember back when mOo used to gate camp High sec space regularly, i left before this was resolved but thats impossible now and high sec is safer than ever. Is Eve poorer for it - yes probably it is, but if it hadnt been changed slowly everyone would have got bored long ago and left and then you wouldnt be able to come here and whine or play eve at all. And thats just one example i know of, im sure there are hundreds of similar cases were exploits of game mechanics have led to nerfings, well all i can say is suck it up, if people cant play fair expect things to get nerfed. And as many say eve is harsh (you included) if you cant adapt to whatever it throws at you (and that includes some change which may make it more difficult for you) then move on.. As for the issue of making it more PvE friendly and high-sec missioning i really dont see the big deal. Even way back when if you so desired you could happily earn loads sitting in high sec trading or mining with little risk, i see the agents as CCP giving people who dont want to always do PVP as having a task to fulfil other than mining. I mean really why do you care if some guy spends years farming isk in missions??? How in any way does that detract from your gaming experience. And tbh agents were always supposed to be a bigger deal than they were at launch, they were broken and bugged then but CCP always said they would eventually be more important. Anyway to the OP basically suck it up mate and move on to another game or adapt and stop whining.
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:06:00 - [81] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Rells ...curious stuff about ignoring comments of the players and listening to whine at the same time... Name one single balance change that doesn't make sense, and you might have a point. What you dismiss so easily as whine (and what an idiot thing to do), are quite often logical arguments about things that aren't balanced in Eve, and it reach big proportions when said unbalanced become widely used. Do you honeslty think speed-tanking is fine, depite precision light missiles doing 0.0 damage, and warrior II becoming the only light drones to use because the others are too slow? Do you honestly think ECM was fine, when everyone and their dogs were fitting them on their ships? Sure, CCP sometimes screw-up and ignore warnings from players about what they're doing (Doomsday anyone?). That still doesn't mean anything related to whine. The problem is not so much the whine it is the response that comes out of it. Generally the EVE players DO know what is going on and there will be a handful of enlightened souls who will speak from experience and give CCP a real good solution to the problem being whinned about...Then CCP, of late, goes and does something completely different that does not help. Your Nano thing for instance, what are they going to do about that? Maybe Nerf everyone's speed massively? It is a likely fix, but maybe instead of NERFING things they should Buff something. Why not make those stupid slow as dirt missiles faster like IRL? Why not give those drones some more push on those tiny little hulls of theirs? Speed up some stuff so it can catch those Nano Ships a little more readily instead of nerfing the Nano Ships. Accomplishes the same thing while making it more worthwhile to train skills rather than making certain modules and skills WORTH LESS. Add Value, do not Subtract it. As for Corrupt Commitees, that is why they would be chosen carefuly, be responsible back to the population of EVE and the Devs, and ultimately the final word would still be from the Devs. The Council would "Advise" not "Code". +++++++++++++++ For the LAST time... Keep your UGLY Typhoon off my SEXY Hurricane
Jack Freely Perkone	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:14:00 - [82] WAAAA WAAAAA I want a hard core pvp game where I can rob, loot, and kill people anywhere I find them. I want a game where no one is safe. So will I get this if I keep it up? And why can't we tank Concord, I want to experience the Moo camps first hand.
Thomas Redux Redux Command	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:23:00 - [83] re the OP I agree completely, EVE has changed in enough bad ways that I have canceled my subscription. I stopped enjoying EVE in back in the fall, but really began to hate it when trinity came and when drones got wtf nerfed. . . They Really Are PansieS!
Hippy Dave	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:32:00 - [84] Edited by: Hippy Dave on 22/02/2008 05:35:47 Originally by: Thomas Redux re the OP I agree completely, EVE has changed in enough bad ways that I have canceled my subscription. I stopped enjoying EVE in back in the fall, but really began to hate it when trinity came and when drones got wtf nerfed. You actually quit cause they nerfed drones?!? Thats seriously lame.... well dont let the door hit you in the arse on the way out Amazing isnt it how many supposed hard core EVE players there are who constantly say stuff like 'EVE is harsh adapt or die' to whining new players will then cancel their sub cause their shiny big ass capital ship suddenly loses 5% worth of resists or some other aspect they rely on gets altered... Dont get me wrong if you are bored of EVE by all means leave, its only a game. But to expect the game to go your way all the time and then *** and whine when it doesnt it pointless, if you dont like how a game is being developed (any game) move on, theres better things to do with your life. Originally by:** Jack Freely WAAAA WAAAAA I want a hard core pvp game where I can rob, loot, and kill people anywhere I find them. I want a game where no one is safe. So will I get this if I keep it up? And why can't we tank Concord, I want to experience the Moo camps first hand. Well said
Thomas Redux Redux Command	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:36:00 - [85] Originally by: Hippy Dave Originally by: Thomas Redux re the OP I agree completely, EVE has changed in enough bad ways that I have canceled my subscription. I stopped enjoying EVE in back in the fall, but really began to hate it when trinity came and when drones got wtf nerfed. You actually quit cause they nerfed drones?!? Thats seriously lame.... well dont let the door hit you in the arse on the way out Originally by: Jack Freely WAAAA WAAAAA I want a hard core pvp game where I can rob, loot, and kill people anywhere I find them. I want a game where no one is safe. So will I get this if I keep it up? And why can't we tank Concord, I want to experience the Moo camps first hand. Well said Are you illiterate? The drones was the last thing I said, it wasn't the reason I quit it was just one. Learn to comprehend what you are reading. I had just trained an alt to use gallente drone ships only to have the drone nerf happen two days after getting the skills for a HAC. There were many other reasons, and since then there have been other changes I don't like. Why would anyone continue to pay to play a game they no longer like anyway? . . They Really Are PansieS!
Hippy Dave	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:42:00 - [86] Originally by: Thomas Redux Are you illiterate? The drones was the last thing I said, it wasn't the reason I quit it was just one. Learn to comprehend what you are reading. I had just trained an alt to use gallente drone ships only to have the drone nerf happen two days after getting the skills for a HAC. There were many other reasons, and since then there have been other changes I don't like. Why would anyone continue to pay to play a game they no longer like anyway? No im clearly not as im responding to you in English... And ok so a string of similarly random changes forced you to leave cause why? Ill bet its cause suddenly your uber fit/money making process/exploit/whatever it was didnt work anymore. As i said above (i edited as you replied) fine if you dont like it then see ya later, i did the same many years back.. Difference is i didnt come to the forums to anounce this to everyone, clearly you still have feelings for the game or you wouldnt even be looking at the forums.... Just kiss and make up or move on forever is my advice
Thomas Redux Redux Command	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:48:00 - [87] Originally by: Hippy Dave Originally by: Thomas Redux Are you illiterate? The drones was the last thing I said, it wasn't the reason I quit it was just one. Learn to comprehend what you are reading. I had just trained an alt to use gallente drone ships only to have the drone nerf happen two days after getting the skills for a HAC. There were many other reasons, and since then there have been other changes I don't like. Why would anyone continue to pay to play a game they no longer like anyway? No im clearly not as im responding to you in English... And ok so a string of similarly random changes forced you to leave cause why? Ill bet its cause suddenly your uber fit/money making process/exploit/whatever it was didnt work anymore. As i said above (i edited as you replied) fine if you dont like it then see ya later, i did the same many years back.. Difference is i didnt come to the forums to anounce this to everyone, clearly you still have feelings for the game or you wouldnt even be looking at the forums.... Just kiss and make up or move on forever is my advice You're making a lot of assumptions. I come to the forums because I still have friends wo play and I still keep up with the goings on. Nothing forced me to leave, I told you I wasn't happy with the changes so I left. I'll ask again, why pay for something I'm not happy with? As for losing my isk making? No ask the guy who bought my former main, Smantha Dering. I was running level 4s in a nighthawk. Isk making was not a concern, not only that I had the skill for research but no inclination, he's added to research skills and now makes isk doing both. I know this because it was a friend who took over my character by character transfer to his account. This is a discussion about changes right? I am discussing how the changes affected me, if you can't deal with that then too bad for you. . . They Really Are PansieS!
Thomas Redux Redux Command	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:52:00 - [88] By the way, since I paid for this subscription and it hasn't run out yet, I have as much right to post here as any other paid subscription. . . They Really Are PansieS!
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.02.22 06:43:00 - [89] Originally by: Avon Just to clarify my position: I bought in to Eve right back in the beta. The promise was for a ruthless PvP based game. We were told there would be no compromise on that. We were told that CCP would stay true to the vision, and that it would not be compromised for popularity. We were told that CCP would rather that Eve was the biggest niche mmog, rather than another mainstream effort. Now, I fully understand the pressures on CCP to succeed, and I don't blame them for making Eve what it is now. However, it really isn't what we bought in to in the early days. It isn't the vision that kept a loyal subscriber-base paying up each month, keeping the vision alive. I understand that people who have joined later have a different viewpoint, and I accept that pov entirely, but please do not tell us that we aren't allowed to be dissapointed that our dream has been taken away from us. We are entitled to be a little frustrated. Eve is a great game, of that there is no doubt. It is not, however, the uncompromising PvP game we were promised. PvPers of all countries , unite Originally by: ivan draco we didnt want your post anyway
Kyoto Luyi MX3 Development Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.22 06:55:00 - [90] Originally by: Thomas Redux re the OP I agree completely, EVE has changed in enough bad ways that I have canceled my subscription. I stopped enjoying EVE in back in the fall, but really began to hate it when trinity came and when drones got wtf nerfed. Stuff plz! kkthxbye... I really don't understand why anyone hangs around and whines about a game they no longer play. Time to move on. Get an analyst, try some therapy, maybe join a soccer team? Hmm?

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