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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.21 06:38:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rells on 21/02/2008 06:38:51
I remember when the developers of this game had a vision. They pursued the vision and told anyone who didnt like it to suck it up or get out. The vision was based on PvP and balance of the game.
Im sorry to say that is no longer the case. Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. There was the famous nano-phoon imbalance that caused a massive imbalance in the game for months despite being profusely reported by testers. There was also the famous ECM nerf; people whines about ECM ships and then CCP whacked it with a stick without any consideration about the wider impact on the game. It took them 4 or 5 months to come out with a fix to ths ships they crippled. The story goes on and on and continues to be messed up.
Now there are developers making changes to the game that no nothing about the game. In fact I would venture to say some of them have never even played the game. The prime example is the interdictor speed nerf. Only someone who has not even played the game could make the asinine statement that nano ships are impossible to catch even with dedicated web or nos ships. Only a person that has never flown an interdictor would come to the stupid conclusion that because the Sabre is the fastest dictor, all of them should be speed nerfed. And only someone with very little experience in the game would categorically remove undocks from the game for the purposes of spreading out people coming out of Jita IV-4.
So why the changes? Quite simply its the loudest whine on these forums -- forums that have, in the past, told people to commit suicide in real life and laughed when someone did. This SEWER is driving the game down the road of WOW. Because the people here lack imagination and skill in PvP it is being dumbed down, patch by patch. To what end I wonder? To catch the WoW crowd? Is it now just another studio with care only of money?
Where is the vision now? There should be a requirement that all devs have to play this game for more than 1000 hours over half a year before being allowed to propose any changes to the game. They should have to participate in PvP and in alliance warfare and 0.0 living before making pathetic changes like nerfing all undocks for a trite reason. They need to do this before the game totally explodes. They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game.
Yes, I know I'm about to get flamed but I dont really give a (water retaining structure) anymore. Ive said my piece.
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Nahh
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Posted - 2008.02.21 06:46:00 -
[2]
reserved
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Deadly Addiction
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Posted - 2008.02.21 06:47:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 21/02/2008 06:48:47
people saying they know they are going to get flamed is like a dude saying I'm going to breath today.
Adding that dosen't really do anything.
The more you know
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Flaming Lemming
Caldari
Puppeteer Press
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Posted - 2008.02.21 06:53:00 -
[4]
While I agree with pretty much every point that you make,
I have to admire the irony of you whining about how changes are made due to whining.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.02.21 06:56:00 -
[5]
Interesting. So if I whine hard enough about whiners not being banned outright not only from the forum, and not only from the game, but from life itself, I might succeed for the reasons you mentioned? This is an outstanding development. I will also whine before making a "ban whiners" whine about the time it is taking to train Advanced Spaceship Comm to 5. Whicked awesome
What the hell am I doing drunk on a wednesday......... I hear they frown on that in Iceland.
Oh right it;s because my university's IRB told me I had to make "major revisions" to my research proposal. I got your major revisions right here tbh
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Cult of Rawr
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Posted - 2008.02.21 06:56:00 -
[6]
And that's why Gallente are now the worst race for Gang PvP 
I admire your efforts, I really do, but I fail to see how this is going to accomplish anything. If they really had a clue, they would have 'balanced' things like MWDs and Webbers a long time ago, rather than nerfing/buffing everything else around them 
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Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.21 06:59:00 -
[7]
Even if some people tend to call every non-positiv Thread a "whine" there must be cretic to improve the gameplay.
It can't be 100% perfect, that has nothing to do with this game. It's a general problem of everthink on earth. If there is a problem somewhere it must be allowed to say: "hey, there is a problem" if it is based on knowlage, hard nubers or tested acurat.
But ... as it can't be 100% balanced there will allways be somebody who names every non-positiv post a "whine". Most of the time becouse he might be negativ effected of it ;).
not the one who posts the problem but the one who calls him whiner is the REAL whiner! 
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Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.02.21 07:11:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Rells
They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game.
I know they said that the were going start a player-comittee of some sort. Don't remember for what purouse tho.
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.21 07:38:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Rells on 21/02/2008 07:38:53
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
And that's why Gallente are now the worst race for Gang PvP
I admire your efforts, I really do, but I fail to see how this is going to accomplish anything. If they really had a clue, they would have 'balanced' things like MWDs and Webbers a long time ago, rather than nerfing/buffing everything else around them
It wont. Trust me, Im a realist. But I had to say it.
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Originally by: Rells
They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game.
I know they said that the were going start a player-comittee of some sort. Don't remember for what purouse tho.
They also said they were going to fix the corp interface. ... 4 years ago.
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Haks'he Lirky
Dominion Imperium
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Posted - 2008.02.21 08:08:00 -
[10]
you do realize that every post you have ever made regarding game design is one massive nonconstructive whinefest?
irony ftw....
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ZerKar
Caldari
Zen'Tar
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Posted - 2008.02.21 08:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rells
They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game.
This, QFT and FTW. Nuff said.
+++++++++++++++
For the LAST time...
Keep your UGLY Typhoon off my SEXY Hurricane |
Kalica Kahn
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.21 08:38:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Kalica Kahn on 21/02/2008 08:39:48
I like the changes 
And a certainly <3 all the nerd rage from those who just don't want their special ship changed.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.02.21 08:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rells
...curious stuff about ignoring comments of the players and listening to whine at the same time...
Name one single balance change that doesn't make sense, and you might have a point.
What you dismiss so easily as whine (and what an idiot thing to do), are quite often logical arguments about things that aren't balanced in Eve, and it reach big proportions when said unbalanced become widely used.
Do you honeslty think speed-tanking is fine, depite precision light missiles doing 0.0 damage, and warrior II becoming the only light drones to use because the others are too slow?
Do you honestly think ECM was fine, when everyone and their dogs were fitting them on their ships?
Sure, CCP sometimes screw-up and ignore warnings from players about what they're doing (Doomsday anyone?). That still doesn't mean anything related to whine.
------------------------------------------
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Valan
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.21 08:49:00 -
[14]
Balance changes are fine and I must admit I'm benefitting from most of them just lately.
However, this game is crashing fast from what it used to be. It used to be hardcore, something different, it was dark, hard going and rewards came to those who used initiative and skill.
Now its fluffy space and grinding. The options for nefarious activity have been limited and even the brainless can win.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
Agil TradeAlt
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Posted - 2008.02.21 09:09:00 -
[15]
While game balance changes are always going to happen, what I dont get is the CCP approach to things.
For example, ECM was genuinly borked, only because of the 20 second jam time. Everyone agreed ECM would be fin if it just broke locks and thats it.
What does CCP do? Nerf ECM insted of fixing it.
Sensor Dampners were borked because people could use 3-4 of them and their target could not lock them. People said "Easy sensor dampner fix is have the victim's abilities uneffected vs the dampner". Thus, the dampner becomes a gang module insted of a omg wtf, and this also discorages a dampner gang. People were happy with this.
What does CCP do? Nerf Dampning insted of fixing it
Tracking disrupters have long been the joke of EW. Just because its Amarr, people laughed even more at it. People asking for just about anything to make this viable.
What does CCP do? Massively nerf TD's insted of fixing it.
PvP in this game is good. However, people used stuff like wcs, nano, cloak, logon traps, logoff when in danger and a whole lot of other stupid stuff that is the REAL problem.
People flying 27km/s nanomaches with 45km scrams (gangmember in claymore) are the new invincible. With weapons such as cruise, the new nanomachs are the i-win button and competent players cannot be beaten. And if you assemble a force to beat them, then the nanomach will simply MWD to gate and jump out in 1 second.
So CCP - can you fix this borked nano concept once and for all?
Originally by: CCP kieron
ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
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Agil TradeAlt
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Posted - 2008.02.21 09:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: ZerKar
Originally by: Rells
They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game.
This, QFT and FTW. Nuff said.
Sadly, such a commetee would make changes in their favor insted of the good of eve. For example, someone with stockpile of 10,000 regeneratives plates he bought at 1 isk each because they are mostly useless, could push for a change that makes his plates worth 1mil each. To the outside observer, he is doing a good job, but he is pushing for his own agenda rather than anything else.
So for reasons such as this and many others, thats why cometee is a bad idea
Originally by: CCP kieron
ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
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Roy Gordon
Caldari
Caldari Advanced Response Division
G Thanks Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.21 09:32:00 -
[17]
I have always advocated that any player proposals which affect major changes to game play should only be made when a SIGNIFICANT proportion of the player base either points out a problem or brings up a new idea. As there are over 400,000 subscribers to Eve, I do not feel its fair in a democratic society that the complaints of less than one percent of that subscriber base can have an effect on the rest of us. Perhaps there should be an æofficalÆ policy along the lines of æPlayer proposed changes to either game play or the games design will not be considered unless at least 10 percent of the subscriber base agrees with the proposalÆ
That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
The Universe is ruled by three basic principles-
Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest! |
Elles D
Caldari
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.21 09:38:00 -
[18]
Well duh.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Do Or Die And Live Or Try
The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.02.21 09:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Roy Gordon
I have always advocated that any player proposals which affect major changes to game play should only be made when a SIGNIFICANT proportion of the player base either points out a problem or brings up a new idea. As there are over 400,000 subscribers to Eve, I do not feel its fair in a democratic society that the complaints of less than one percent of that subscriber base can have an effect on the rest of us. Perhaps there should be an æofficalÆ policy along the lines of æPlayer proposed changes to either game play or the games design will not be considered unless at least 10 percent of the subscriber base agrees with the proposalÆ
If people don't voice their opinion, the don't belong in a democracy. They most certainly don't get the right to complain about changes, they never voice their complaint about, when the change was proposed. So if you feel its bad, that the 1% who voice their opinion has the power, get more people to voice their opinion. CCP are not mind readers, you know.
Besides, EvE is no a democracy, it's a dictatorship with CCP as the leader. They hold absolute power over the game and what happens to it. I am grateful that they listen and read the forums and listen to the 1% that whines, compared to the 99% who don't say anything.
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.02.21 10:07:00 -
[20]
So?
Seeing as Eve is now more than ever before determined to be just another game on the product shelf, it doesn't really matter what happens.
---
Fanboi
noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse.
2) Idiot.
Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi
Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz. |
Brother Welcome
Amarr
Icarus' Wings
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.21 10:47:00 -
[21]
The OP should look at this link, and admire the information in the orange table.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=505
Then come back about PvP balance...
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.02.21 10:47:00 -
[22]
What I don't understand is why the whines > counterwhines.
Ten people yell "nerf drones", another ten yell "don't nerf drones"
There is a 1:1 ratio on who wants what, and somehow CCP listens to the ONE fifty percent side, as opposed to the other.
Why is that?
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.21 10:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Agil TradeAlt
While game balance changes are always going to happen, what I dont get is the CCP approach to things.
For example, ECM was genuinly borked, only because of the 20 second jam time. Everyone agreed ECM would be fin if it just broke locks and thats it.
What does CCP do? Nerf ECM insted of fixing it.
Sensor Dampners were borked because people could use 3-4 of them and their target could not lock them. People said "Easy sensor dampner fix is have the victim's abilities uneffected vs the dampner". Thus, the dampner becomes a gang module insted of a omg wtf, and this also discorages a dampner gang. People were happy with this.
What does CCP do? Nerf Dampning insted of fixing it
Tracking disrupters have long been the joke of EW. Just because its Amarr, people laughed even more at it. People asking for just about anything to make this viable.
What does CCP do? Massively nerf TD's insted of fixing it.
PvP in this game is good. However, people used stuff like wcs, nano, cloak, logon traps, logoff when in danger and a whole lot of other stupid stuff that is the REAL problem.
People flying 27km/s nanomaches with 45km scrams (gangmember in claymore) are the new invincible. With weapons such as cruise, the new nanomachs are the i-win button and competent players cannot be beaten. And if you assemble a force to beat them, then the nanomach will simply MWD to gate and jump out in 1 second.
So CCP - can you fix this borked nano concept once and for all?
while you are right about almost everything, I dare you to find such nanomach with a cost below 1bil (ship + modules included).
the only nerf that nanos need, if any at all, is the snakes and polys.
---
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.02.21 11:18:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Rells
Edited by: Rells on 21/02/2008 06:38:51
I remember when the developers of this game had a vision. They pursued the vision and told anyone who didnt like it to suck it up or get out. The vision was based on PvP and balance of the game.
Perhaps they are still doing this, only your and their perception of PvP and balance of the game has diverged.
Also, just by stating that you think changes are made based on the whine level doesn't make it so.
Additionally, CCP would be stupid if they didn't listen to customer concerns.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Kailea Shandrasekkar
COLD-Wing
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.02.21 11:21:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Agil TradeAlt
...So for reasons such as this and many others, thats why cometee is a bad idea
Can't agree more.
The price demanded for the most precious of all things is life itself - ultimate cost for perfect value. |
Lil'Red Ridin'Hood
Snake Assault
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Posted - 2008.02.21 12:23:00 -
[26]
As unfortunate as it is, that just seems the way things go in (niche) MMOs.
Start off hard-core and then gradually introduce more and more of weak sauce so the game gets more HelloKittyfied.
Until some people had enough and head off to produce a game that's "more like the old-skool version of <insert previous game that went through this> without the stupid dumbing down".
Isn't this how EVE was created in the first place?
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.21 12:28:00 -
[27]
Remember what happened to Ultima Online?
Yeah, exactly.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Lil'Red Ridin'Hood
Snake Assault
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Posted - 2008.02.21 12:32:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Avon
Remember what happened to Ultima Online?
Yeah, exactly.
Those were exactly my thoughts. Too bad that CCP doesn't see following UO's footsteps as a mistake. Then again, from a financial pov it probably isn't a mistake to dumb things down so the game becomes more mainstream.
It's our own problem that we don't want mainstream.
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Jin Gle
Gallente
The Topal Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.21 12:37:00 -
[29]
I still dont get why people complain at all. Feedback of course is good, but not like this. The descisions CCP makes are theirs to make. Its not a democracy noone ever implied it was. EVE is a product. You pay for it. If you dont like it, dont pay for it. But dont expect it to change to what you want it to be just because you pay for it.
Space Lion |
Artazzo
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Posted - 2008.02.21 12:40:00 -
[30]
the whiners are not the mass, they are just 1%(*) of the eve-population.
YOU are not the mass, you just complain about the whiners
the mass is actually those people who are NOT coming to the forums, but instead just playing the game and having fun.
the mass is what devs care about, not you, not the whiners, but the mass, because they generate the income.
do you really think devs are not playing the game? i'm sure they don;t play it with a big neon sign above their ships with the words "DEVELOPER HERE"
i think they are just having fun in some corp doing the same stuff as tyou, complain about the same stuff and having fun as well. the corp-chatter is imho much more genuin than forum-chat, because that is merely a small summary of a certain point of a certain aspect of a certain problem.
think out of the box.
A.
(*)1% is a fictional percentage not based on statistics, but i'm quite sure it ain't higher than 20%
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