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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.04.05 13:50:00 -
[31]
 Quote:
LOL Juan, and then he releases drones and fires a volley of FoF at you. Get a clue please.
Where did you see me say that the target has no way of countering or responding to the threat? I merely stated that he is snared.
If you are so cluefull you would have realised that most MWD frigs used for such purposes go faster than FoF's which are the slowest of missiles, of course you might need to manually navigate just a bit but i can see how this can be beyong you.
Nor did i suggest you can camp with 2 frigs only.
If you have a good hitter/s you can take down a Gal cruisers (The ones that have enough drones) before the first cycle of warp scrambler ends.
In the case of a BS you can still opt to stay and warp jam for another cycle and try to warp afterwards or sacrifice the frig. Depends on how efficient your hitters are, if you think you can buy em enough time by staying. After all you are trying to hold down a BS with a Frig what did you expect a walk in the f*cking park?
The only thing you are right about are the BMs.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.04.05 14:04:00 -
[32]
Quote:
Petty people turn this into a "pirates are lazy" thread. Others realise this does not only affect pirates but also pirate hunters and corp warfare mercenaries...
As well as regular corps doing warfare in other alliance's space.
Look beyond the fact that *I* am a pirate and observe the whole picture, please?
This is where you are wrong.. I want everyone to have the same oppertunities as the next man/woman. This post about MWD's is just something that needs to be addressed when they balance out everything you describe in your "why pirates always win" post.
You might call me a petty person, but your timing to nerf MWD's is way off.
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Czekiit Layduur
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Posted - 2004.04.05 14:30:00 -
[33]
You could always go to an EnB style of fittings for the med slots. Only allowing one of a particular "class" of item to be installed.
i.e. Only 1 MWD, 1 AB, 1 Shield Booster, etc.
Oh wait! 
Then you couldn't use multiple webs/disruptors!
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Amira
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Posted - 2004.04.05 14:41:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Petty people turn this into a "pirates are lazy" thread. Others realise this does not only affect pirates but also pirate hunters and corp warfare mercenaries...
As well as regular corps doing warfare in other alliance's space.
Look beyond the fact that *I* am a pirate and observe the whole picture, please?
Your problem, Nightfang, may be that you respond to every criticism with defensive counterbatteries. You have effectively hijacked your own post by your constant hostility towards everyone disagreeing with you.
I, for instance, am not posting here because I care whether one can use 2 MWDs or not. As long as rules are evenly applied to everyone, they become a neutral adversary. I am posting here because I think your tendency to personally insult everyone who disagrees with you is patently rediculous, and it's worth two minutes of my workday to tell you so.
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"The Spartans ask not how many, but where they are." -Agis II of Sparta
'Valor is the contempt of death and pain.' -Tacitus |
khainestar
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Posted - 2004.04.05 14:50:00 -
[35]
Edited by: khainestar on 05/04/2004 14:53:17
Edited by: khainestar on 05/04/2004 14:51:55
Before this thread get locked for turning into a flame fest I would like to say that the skill idea for multi-mwd is a good idea.
Quote:
Althought I'd rather see a solution like a new skill along the lines of:
Rank 5; Advanced warp field control ( you get the idea )
Skill at alligning stacked warp fields allows usage of a second mwd at a -100% effect penalty 10% effect of a 2nd mwd per level.
Requirements:
lvl 4 acceleration control
lvl 4 high speed maneuvering
So at lvl 1 that 2nd mwd would give a 50% speed boost and at most at lvl 5 250%. That would still give people the option to use it, but it would come much less easily, and only those really dedicated to getting away would use a 2nd mwd and train to get a serious effect from it. And 3 mwds would be impossible.
It wouldn't stop the genuine run like hell players and people that really don't want to be caught. But it would stop the casual player from dropping multi mwd on a cruiser and running rings around pirates at the gates.
Yes I know that bounty hunters use multi mwd too and so do other people. I use 2 mwd on a blackbird just for fast travel.
By the way I am not a pirate. I just think its a good idea.
/me grabs flameproof undies and dives under the table
edit: pwnd by bbcode
edit : spelling mistkaes 
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Pain. Looks great on other people. Its what there for. |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 15:09:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Your problem, Nightfang, may be that you respond to every criticism with defensive counterbatteries. You have effectively hijacked your own post by your constant hostility towards everyone disagreeing with you.
I, for instance, am not posting here because I care whether one can use 2 MWDs or not. As long as rules are evenly applied to everyone, they become a neutral adversary. I am posting here because I think your tendency to personally insult everyone who disagrees with you is patently rediculous, and it's worth two minutes of my workday to tell you so.
Read the whole thread again, amira, then please quote me one instance of constructive criticism to my complaint which I have replied to in a hostile manner.
Unconstructive comments, ignorance and pure trolling/downgrading because of my in-game character I respond to in the most hostile manner I can. It's the best way to get rid of the trolls, really...
It's still an important issue, because it's one of the cornerstones in the ruined PvP climate in EVE. The two others are, in my opinion instajump bookmarks and safespots. One of which will be adressed when Black Ops frigates come, the other which can be circumvented with some effort...
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SLIM
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Posted - 2004.04.05 15:28:00 -
[37]
Seems like whining to me. If he can't stack 2x mwd, why should you be allowed to stack two webs?
Furthermore, I don't buy this 2km/s thing if he only had 2x mwds on. If you had any sort of decent webbers on, they'd web for at least 85%. So .15x.15x.15=.3375 PERCENT top speed. A cruiser can reasonably go 5km/s with one burst of dual mwds. Guess what, that's 16m/s. Even counting that he accelerated to a decent speed before you webbed him, he shouldnt have been going 2km/s when he hit the gate. With three MWDs, its very possible (still speculative) that he got up to a good speed before you webbed him. However, 3 MWDs cuts your cap more than in half (42%), that's a huge penalty.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, get another interceptor and more webs, or be more creative. Just because you have one ship with 3 webs doesnt mean you should get guaranteed kills
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.04.05 15:29:00 -
[38]
No, you don't respond to trolls and flamers. Eventually they'll tire and go away. Don't feed the troll.
Now, to the point.
Nightfang, the way I see it you have but one thing you can seriously ask of the Micro Warp Drives: that they boost to the ships basic speed, and not to the ships current speed.
This would make MWDs much less a speed trip, and could allow us to do away with most of the cap and shield killing drawback.
Why your post hit such fierce opposition:
I tried cramming 3 MWD and 2 AB into a dominix. This killed my capa. I managed to barely get everything going, and after slightly less than 10 seconds I had hit 21000 meters per second. My capa was dead, and my shield was FUBAR.
Fitting MWD makes you loose 25% shield and capa. That's not healthy. You sacrifice a lot.
On a different note: how are blaster/autocannon boats supposed to close in on prey fast enough? A Megathron with only one MWD is about as fast as an interceptor without Navigation skill.
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If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.05 15:33:00 -
[39]
Quote:
No, you don't respond to trolls and flamers. Eventually they'll tire and go away. Don't feed the troll.
Now, to the point.
Nightfang, the way I see it you have but one thing you can seriously ask of the Micro Warp Drives: that they boost to the ships basic speed, and not to the ships current speed.
This would make MWDs much less a speed trip, and could allow us to do away with most of the cap and shield killing drawback.
Why your post hit such fierce opposition:
I tried cramming 3 MWD and 2 AB into a dominix. This killed my capa. I managed to barely get everything going, and after slightly less than 10 seconds I had hit 21000 meters per second. My capa was dead, and my shield was FUBAR.
Fitting MWD makes you loose 25% shield and capa. That's not healthy. You sacrifice a lot.
On a different note: how are blaster/autocannon boats supposed to close in on prey fast enough? A Megathron with only one MWD is about as fast as an interceptor without Navigation skill.
Shows what you know my blasterthron is quite speedy on a single mwd. And I really really really don't want to see a mwd on every combat ship, that would be the end of close range combat, period.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 15:52:00 -
[40]
---> Slim, you yourself pointed out he probably hit the MWD's just prior to me hitting the webs. The problem, which will always remain in this situation, is that he will always be able to hit those MWD's no matter how fast or how many interceptors you got out there. This is because of the delay the agressor faces as he needs to target his prey and hit the webs, so even if targetting time is only half a second - that's still half a second the other guy has to fire his MWD's and WILL fire his MWDs.
The next problem is that no matter how many webs the guy has on him, his speed will lower itself in a fixed deceleration. Even if we have ten or twenty webs on him - he will get away as long as he's gotten that initial momentum. And as it is now, he always gets it.
---> Ithildin, a Blasterthron with a dual MWD was dead before he even warped into the fight. Two MWD bursts kills the capacitor completely, granted, but the problem is that it's a foolproof way to successfully escape any blockade without the need for either bookmarks or anything else.
It's too easy. As long as it is this way, there is no way there are gonna be any succesful territorial claims for any alliances. Every enemy BS can just strap on two MWD's, zoom past the defenders' blockade without any trouble, and then refit for combat in the heart of the enemy's region.
It really needs to go - for pirates/alliance fighters/pirate hunters alike...
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SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.04.05 16:06:00 -
[41]
Nightfang, in your example of your initial post, what was the guy you triplewebbed flying?
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Tribunal
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Posted - 2004.04.05 16:07:00 -
[42]
Quote:
I'd like to see a removal of the ability to fit two or more microwarpdrives.
As others have said, people sacrifice large amounts of shield and cap to fit two MWDs. Do you sacrifice cap and shield to use the webers? Didn't think so. Things are balanced just fine, maybe one of these days you will get an Eve where the "pirates always win".
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Sphalerite
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Posted - 2004.04.05 16:15:00 -
[43]
I agree that multiMWD setups are a pain, but I don't think that a 1 module only rule or a stacking nerf beyond the standard one is the way to go.
Some other solutions would be...
1. Tweak with inertia for webs, MWDs and ship sizes. I always thought that webs should be like driving into a lake. Big or small, its going to stop your car pretty quick.
2. An anti MWD module. as opposed to a web, it would turn off the MWD totally. give it a longer range than webs. this might cause problems with blaster setups and the like... maybe make it class specific i.e. 100MN anti-MWD.
3. Longer range warps and webs. to balance them, make the webs less effective, and the warp jammers less points. I suppose we'd have to up the points on the other ones, and up the points on the stabs to do this. should be done anyway.
Any of these could help with multiMWD ships without adding specific rules for specific modules that confuse the hell out of newbies and make things a pain to keep straight.
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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2004.04.05 16:21:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Nightfang, in your example of your initial post, what was the guy you triplewebbed flying?
I'd like to know that too... Someone told me it was one of my guys, and if it was then it made my day.  I find it kinda funny.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Shatza
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Posted - 2004.04.05 16:41:00 -
[45]
yes it was me, nice try nightfang... ill c u soon :)
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Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.04.05 17:34:00 -
[46]
Quote:
IF I web them and they dual-MWD away, I CANNOT follow them because gate won't allow me.
So don't web them right away. Hey just because you want to camp gates, without ever leaving a system doesn't mean CCP should do whatever you want. You're not a professional killer, you're a simple gate camper, stop acting special.
This is just another "ME ME ME CCP make my life easier ME ME ME" thread. Save it.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
ZzeusS
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Posted - 2004.04.05 18:10:00 -
[47]
Well, I bought my first 10MN MWD last night, and have yet to go pick it up. Thanks for the tip that I need two :)
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.04.05 19:23:00 -
[48]
I don't like to see any restrictions on what modules and how many of them you can fit but I also think it's stupid that you can make your ship untouchable, other then frigates of course (I fly frigates  ). Isn't the acceleration the biggist problem. That is when you equip multiple mwd you have insane acceleration so when you have targetted the ship it's already at some insane speed?
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Capacitor research |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.05 19:27:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Quote:
IF I web them and they dual-MWD away, I CANNOT follow them because gate won't allow me.
So don't web them right away. Hey just because you want to camp gates, without ever leaving a system doesn't mean CCP should do whatever you want. You're not a professional killer, you're a simple gate camper, stop acting special.
This is just another "ME ME ME CCP make my life easier ME ME ME" thread. Save it.
Lol I can personally testify Nightfang ain't a simple gate camper. You might not like his profession, but he's pretty damn good at what he does.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.04.05 19:45:00 -
[50]
What he is asking for is that nobody have any chance of escape from him ever. That would be the same as if I asked to have an Indy that nobody could catch, ever.
Wish in one hand and **** in the other, see which one fills up first.
Even with two MWD the person is catchable, catch them when they enter a system and not when they are leaving. Use your Interceptor to lock them fast, use missiles to missalign their ship so they can't go to warp, then scramble and web them. If you have the firepower you can destroy them in less than two minutes. When they are leaving a system, well that's a different story. So one gets away. Who cares? Getting ****ed and asking CCP to change something to make your life easier is pretty lame.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.04.05 19:48:00 -
[51]
I agree with this. If MWD is such a power-hungry and fitting-hungry module, how is it possible to fit two? Also it imbalances what is supposed to be a limit on what top speeds you can reach . . . battleships accelerating to 4km/sec within 5 seconds is kinda ridiculous.
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Cirle
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Posted - 2004.04.05 20:14:00 -
[52]
Quote:
I agree with this. If MWD is such a power-hungry and fitting-hungry module, how is it possible to fit two? Also it imbalances what is supposed to be a limit on what top speeds you can reach . . . battleships accelerating to 4km/sec within 5 seconds is kinda ridiculous.
... as is a frigate having enough power output to stop the engines of a battleship. So actually, people should be arguing for battleships to not actually be altered by webs if you remove the second mwd, as they can just plow straight through you...
Cirle |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 20:29:00 -
[53]
SkinnieH - the guy in question was piloting a Thorax. And no, Shatza, it was not you - you passed us with a single MWD (at least I think) when no one was even there to try and web you - just a Scorpion following you in your warptrail and me in an indy at the gate you arrived picking up a secure container a Dreamscape ship had dropped...
I see alot of arguments referring to that it's balanced because you can fit multiple webs and that the MWD give serious cap/shield penalties.
Any ship fitting a single web takes a great risk - for the pilot does so sacrificing a medslot which can be used for a hardener (or other hardcore combat module). Any ship fitting two or more webs is greatly hampered combat-wise. Therein lies the balance and penalty with multiple webs.
Any ship fitting multiple MWD's faces shield and cap problems. Shields won't be an issue since the pilot isn't aiming for combat anyhow - and if he does get shot (at a gate, since we're assuming one fits dual MWD for travel) he won't get shot at long enough to sustain any real damage to speak of. The cap isn't a problem either - fit a few cap relays and your recharge is all back to normal. Fit a few cap batteries or a cap booster and you are back to full capacity.
Hence you have a module which, when used in dual mode, renders you in travel godmode. The only penalties you suffer are related to a completely different situation in the EVE universe.
And that's a cheap price to pay for immortality, isn't it? If it really ain't, as so many people claim, how come most people use it?
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.04.05 20:32:00 -
[54]
Quote:
I agree with this. If MWD is such a power-hungry and fitting-hungry module, how is it possible to fit two? Also it imbalances what is supposed to be a limit on what top speeds you can reach . . . battleships accelerating to 4km/sec within 5 seconds is kinda ridiculous.
It's less ridiculous when you notice that they have given up 50% of there shield an capacity to get to those speeds.
Putting on 2MWD's comes with a huge penalty, i think its fair as is. I travel a lot in 0.0 with 2mwds, but its just for travelling. Getting to a gate with 1x mwd takes around 10-12sec, with 2mwd it takes around 3.
It would be utter **** if they disabled the use of 2x mwd. If you are a good respectable pirate then quit your *****ing if a frigy gets away, go after some cruisers or bs's. I don't mean to insult you but maybe you need to be a little less self-centered. Travelling is boring as hell, what you are proposing will make it even worse 
You say that instajumps are no problem for you. There is no way you can get me if i land right at the gate and if you meant you chase them to the exit point then maybe you should start camping there instead.
I dunno, i just think this whole idea is ****.
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Tribunal
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Posted - 2004.04.05 20:45:00 -
[55]
Quote:
Any ship fitting a single web takes a great risk - for the pilot does so sacrificing a medslot which can be used for a hardener (or other hardcore combat module). Any ship fitting two or more webs is greatly hampered combat-wise. Therein lies the balance and penalty with multiple webs.
Last time I checked a MWD uses a medium slot as well. So, your point is moot.
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Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 20:54:00 -
[56]
No, since that ship has no intention of going into combat. The one with a web does. He also risks facing opponents where that/those webs are a waste.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.04.05 21:00:00 -
[57]
Quote:
No, since that ship has no intention of going into combat. The one with a web does. He also risks facing opponents where that/those webs are a waste.
Exactly, but the one with the MWD is trying to make a 59 jump journey in very unsecure space something less than a boring baby-sitting exercise or a go-to-church-and-pray and then turn on the AP to do something else.
You cannot look at it from your way ONLY. There is a guy on the other end, too. Might even be a woman. He or she might have reasons OTHER than avoiding PvP situations to fit MWD. Believe me, 59 jumps take a LONG time. I don't do it without double MWDs, no way!
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 21:06:00 -
[58]
I really can't see "it's boring" as a legit reason, I'm sorry. Especially not since it has such a great impact on other aspects of the game.
Mining is boring too. Agent missions are boring too. That doesn't mean we need insta-buttons which fills your ship with refined rare minerals, and as a side-effect, gives you +400% extra cargohold.
Generally I agree - one should make the game as little tedious as possible. But there HAS to be other ways...
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.05 21:21:00 -
[59]
Sorry, Nightfang, but all of your comments re: "I'm sacrificing my safety by equipping 2 webbers in order to cath someone who is setup to run (paraphrased)" are very strange.
If someone is setup to run with 2 mwd's you're not going to be in much danger, are you?
Link this with your recent post about "Pirates always winning" and it just sounds like you want your cake and you want to eat it.
I dislike double-MWD'ers as much as anyone but I think you need to try harder and be more innovative.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 21:29:00 -
[60]
Difference in my particular case if I'm gate camping is that if I have two webs equipped I face the threat of being jumped by someone all-boosted for combat, in which case I will die.
BUT, that's not the point. That was merely an example of why it wouldn't be all imbalanced to allow ships to still carry multiple webs yet disallow multiple MWD/nerf acceleration by having them dual.
If it's purely a balance question of MWD/webs - then by all means, impose a one-web-per-ship-limit as well. It would be alot better than the way it is now.
/Nightfang
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