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Why a Fair Fight is Not a Good Fight

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Tsavu Irika	Posted - 2008.03.01 20:38:00 - [1] Recently, I had been reading a book titled "Into the Storm: A Study in Command", written by Tom Clancy, assisted by General Fred Franks, Jr. (Ret.) Clancy quoted Franks in saying, "If you have to fight... Then 100 to nothing is about the right score for the battlefield. Twenty-four to Twenty-one may be okay in the NFL on a Sunday afternoon, but not on the Battlefield." I believe this statement is written fact - If you're going to win, win. A close game is fine, but not when regarding the men under your command. What are your thoughts on this, general EVE Populace?
Ioci Gallente Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.03.01 20:43:00 - [2] It works for a game like football. Not the battlefield. Ok. Eve is a game. It needs balance. So I suppose I agree with you.
Chirruper	Posted - 2008.03.01 20:47:00 - [3] Sun Tzu is turning in his grave. This is not news.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.01 20:50:00 - [4] Real warfare and real loss of life =! Eve warfare. Football is a game as Eve is a game with set rules and restrictions to make it so one strategy doesn't pwn all others. Originally by: MM0RPG EVE Review "if you aren't my friend you are my income."
Daerdeae	Posted - 2008.03.01 20:51:00 - [5] No, it really isn't news. Tell the rest of EVE that. This post was in response to too many people whining about 'unfair' combat practices. If you lose, it's because your opponent had an advantage that you did not. And if you can't match or exceed their advantage in numbers, then learn to use tactics and the like... or, don't do whatever it is you did to get decced in the first place. The word 'Fair' has no place in a smart battlefield. EVE is just a game. It is, yes, but... Some of us really do fight like we mean it. These men under their command are risking their lives and equipment. And if you can't take it seriously in a game, then why should you in real life?
Tsavu Irika	Posted - 2008.03.01 20:52:00 - [6] Bah. Stupid character-selector thing. That was supposed to be posted as Tsavu.
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.01 20:55:00 - [7] Fair fights are boring to watch.
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:22:00 - [8] If it was fair, there probably wouldn't even be a fight. That's why everything should be fair.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:24:00 - [9] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah If it was fair, there probably wouldn't even be a fight. That's why everything should be fair. ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:26:00 - [10] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah If it was fair, there probably wouldn't even be a fight. That's why everything should be fair. Yeah laugh about it, but think about it. The only thing that real life stuff like Iraq thought us, is that if a country does NOT posess WMD, it will eventually get attacked by agressors like the United States. Thus, free WMD for everyone for world peace.

techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:31:00 - [11] Edited by: techzer0 on 01/03/2008 21:32:01 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Yeah laugh about it, but think about it. The only thing that real life stuff like Iraq thought us, is that if a country does NOT posess WMD, it will eventually get attacked by agressors like the United States. Thus, free WMD for everyone for world peace. You're nuts. But no really... just no. That's like communism at it's best, and somebody always has to be better ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
Adarr Caldari g guild Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah The only thing that real life stuff like Iraq thought us, is that if a country does NOT posess WMD, it will eventually get attacked by agressors like the United States. Thus, free WMD for everyone for world peace. That would be like putting everyone in the world into a closed room, nutjobs and murderers included, filling the room up to their waists with gasoline, and giving them all matches.
Captain Blart Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:40:00 - [13] Originally by: Tsavu Irika Recently, I had been reading a book titled "Into the Storm: A Study in Command", written by Tom Clancy, assisted by General Fred Franks, Jr. (Ret.) Clancy quoted Franks in saying, "If you have to fight... Then 100 to nothing is about the right score for the battlefield. Twenty-four to Twenty-one may be okay in the NFL on a Sunday afternoon, but not on the Battlefield." I believe this statement is written fact - If you're going to win, win. A close game is fine, but not when regarding the men under your command. What are your thoughts on this, general EVE Populace? Its not surprising that comes from an american general, their tactic is always the same, outnumber people in number and technology and youre good. If you look at US military since Vietnam, you cant say it serves them well Now back on topic, if you need to blob people , you can find all the excuses you want, it does not matter really, its just because you re not confident in your own abilities, you suck at pvp, you have no balls. Its one of these or maybe 2 of these 3 or all of it. Of course, nobody likes to admit that.
Daerdeae	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:49:00 - [14] I disagree. Blob tactics are stupid and mindless. They are formed of a lack of individual skill. What I meant was that if you were going to have a 50/50 chance of winning a fight, would you do it? Or would you scrap for every advantage at your disposal? My corporation has previously been outnumbered, and still emerged victorious, due to skill over numbers. If you're going to fight, stack every possible advantage in your favor, because 50/50 is NOT a chance I would happily take.
Firkragg PREDATORS OF DESTRUCTION	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Adarr Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah The only thing that real life stuff like Iraq thought us, is that if a country does NOT posess WMD, it will eventually get attacked by agressors like the United States. Thus, free WMD for everyone for world peace. That would be like putting everyone in the world into a closed room, nutjobs and murderers included, filling the room up to their waists with gasoline, and giving them all matches. You totally jsut gave me an idea for a reality tv show.
Grimwalius d'Antan Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.01 21:58:00 - [16] I find that combat in Eve can be downright hard, and I don't mean hard as in "You need a lot of skill to kill the opponent", but more like "It is almost mathematically impossible to cause enough damage to kill a single opponent". A fair one on one fight can go on indefinately with some ship combinations. I've been grumpy a few times about being ganged up on by 5 people or more before but I understand that this is the norm, not so much because people are cowards, but because they know they need all those ships to disable and kill a single ship with any efficiency. This is especially true for piracy, a lone pirate will see many more potential victims fleeing than a small gang that can cover a much larger part of the system and catch their prey. In most PVP scenarios the redundancy of several ships is necessary, as small gangs will suffer more when they lose a ship or two. Outnumbering the opponent is an excellent way to give yourself an edge and stack odds in your favour. To engage in a fight where you're likely to lose, say 50% chance of losing, is foolish. You don't win skirmishes by throwing men into near certain death, and you don't win in Eve PVP by engaging in fair fights. You need to overpower your enemy, otherwise you're just gambling and hoping to win. I perfectly understand the frustration of being killed by a much stronger enemy, or being killed when you're not even interested in fighting, but I think that in all forms of competition you should do what you can to stack odds in your favour. You don't need to take it to the extremes in Eve and other games as this is about friendly competition, but you should never hand over advantages to your opponent either. _______ Griefing is to ruin a friendly game, which Eve is not.
Djinn Phluxx	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:04:00 - [17] In the Marine Corps we learn that there's no such thing as a fair fight. If you and a person you know to be honorable agree to something, then by all means have at it. If it's more than a simple sparring match to test ability, then you should do what it takes to win. Whatever it takes. In Eve, that means getting 5 other guys to help you camp a gate because you're too much of a wuss to do it on your own. It means logging out when you've jumped through a gate and find 6 people sitting there, waiting for you to uncloak. It means doing anything and everything that's not been explicitly labeled an exploit to minimize your loss and/or maximize your gain. As it should be.
Jaabaa Prime Minmatar Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Daerdeae .... closet stuff .... Originally by: Tsavu Irika Bah. Stupid character-selector thing. That was supposed to be posted as Tsavu. Admital. If combat was ever "fair" then there would never ever be a war. So keep philosophy in the bag that its stored in and deal with the consequences --
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Chirruper Sun Tzu is turning in his grave. This is not news. pretty much this
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:35:00 - [20] Its not surprising that comes from an american general, their tactic is always the same, outnumber people in number and technology and youre good. If you look at US military since Vietnam, you cant say it serves them well Now back on topic, if you need to blob people , you can find all the excuses you want, it does not matter really, its just because you re not confident in your own abilities, you suck at pvp, you have no balls. Its one of these or maybe 2 of these 3 or all of it. Of course, nobody likes to admit that. You really shouldn't use forums if your going to post crap like that.

Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:42:00 - [21] Edited by: Ulstan on 01/03/2008 22:44:40 Quote: Twenty-four to Twenty-one may be okay in the NFL on a Sunday afternoon, but not on the Battlefield And as EVE is a game that people play for fun rather than a real life battlefield, fair fights are not only good but to be encouraged. People don't go fight in wars for fun. Quote: Its not surprising that comes from an american general, their tactic is always the same, outnumber people in number and technology As far as outnumbering goes, you're thinking of the Russians. European and American forces have rarely massively outnumbered their foes. Maintaining a steep technological advantage, however, is definitely their style.
Vadimik	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Ulstan As far as outnumbering goes, you're thinking of the Russians. European and American forces have rarely massively outnumbered their foes. Would you please enlighted me as to when "Russians" took part in any mid-to-large scale offensive (as in, not defending their own lives and country, like in WW I and II) operation last time ? I mean, it's all good, but I'm pretty damn sure it was in the 19th century.
Gunzoid Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Firkragg Originally by: Adarr Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah The only thing that real life stuff like Iraq thought us, is that if a country does NOT posess WMD, it will eventually get attacked by agressors like the United States. Thus, free WMD for everyone for world peace. That would be like putting everyone in the world into a closed room, nutjobs and murderers included, filling the room up to their waists with gasoline, and giving them all matches. You totally jsut gave me an idea for a reality tv show. To bad it will probably only have 1 episode.
Grimwalius d'Antan Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 01/03/2008 22:44:40 Quote: Twenty-four to Twenty-one may be okay in the NFL on a Sunday afternoon, but not on the Battlefield And as EVE is a game that people play for fun rather than a real life battlefield, fair fights are not only good but to be encouraged. [...] This would be true if all Eve PVP was 1on1 duels with people you know. Most PVP in Eve is about conquest and annihilating the opposition however, much like actual warfare. _______ Griefing is to ruin a friendly game, which Eve is not.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:28:00 - [25] War is about survival, EVE is about fun, not necessarily a valid point in this universe. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:39:00 - [26] Originally by: Gunzoid Originally by: Firkragg Originally by: Adarr That would be like putting everyone in the world into a closed room, nutjobs and murderers included, filling the room up to their waists with gasoline, and giving them all matches. You totally jsut gave me an idea for a reality tv show. To bad it will probably only have 1 episode. You could always keep adding new people. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2008.03.01 23:56:00 - [27] While technically correct, the whole "Bring a bigger blob" statement manages to avoid all the subtlety that comes from the original concept. The core concept that everybody from Sun Tzu, Lee, Rommel, Patton, Lettow, and particularly Guderian would laugh at the simplicity of the statement. The true concept is not "Bring More Men", but to apply your own strengths effectively against the weakness of the enemy. Scoring a numerical superiority on a battlefield isn't about having a bigger army. It's about concentrating your resources and maneuvering so that you have overwhelming force at the point of your attack. If your going to fight, do as much as you possibly can to guarantee victory. ------ begin signature ----- Little known Eve fact, The original race names were: Amarr Empire, Caldar Empire, Minmatar Republic, The Jovians, and The Remanaquie Federation.
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.03.02 00:02:00 - [28] If people are whining about it (and this IS a whine thread, don't try to disguise it), then blob tactics must be working more often than not. A working tactic creates tears from its victims. This thread is full of its victims. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Pantaloon McPants	Posted - 2008.03.02 00:03:00 - [29] Well it makes sense, unless your a Spartan. If i had a six pack like those guys id be running into 300,000+ crazy Persians no problems.
TimMc Gallente Vidar Fierd Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.02 00:13:00 - [30] Unfair fights win wars. Fair fights challenge and provide entertainment for both sides. But seriously, who doesn't want to win?



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