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If the Eagle is getting a boost, what about the Muninn?

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Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 15:27:00 - [1] Exactly what is wrong with the Muninn is that the Eagle completely obsoletes it with its new 5 turret version.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:12:00 - [2] Originally by: Waxau Bar from the difference in race, tank, and weapon type. Other than that, yeah...eagle is far better. Not all ships are the same dude, and all your arguements ever point to is no variation. The eagle doesnt outclass the Muninn, as its a different race, with different speccing. In the role of anti-support the eagle is better, not "different", just plain better. The Zealot is different from the Muninn, it trades alpha for tracking. The Eagle is not different, its just better. Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Using tremor, the muninn with hac 5 AND 2x optimal rigs gets 101km optimal with 1100 alpha and 330 dps. With republic fleet EMP it gets a 29km optimal, 2200 alpha and 450 dps. What does the eagle get? Those numbers are wrong for the Muninn, it gets 223 dps at that range. 242 DPS at 95km with better tracking than the Muninn The Muninn and Zealot are currently balanced on sisi as anti-support ships. The eagle rapes them both. This assumes that the current bug in optimal range rigs is fixed. As the Zealot is able to take advantage of its slot advantage even farther than it currently is. This makes it far more powerful than it ought to be compared to the Muninn in a long range fit.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:16:00 - [3] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Goumindong Exactly what is wrong with the Muninn is that the Eagle completely obsoletes it with its new 5 turret version. Muninn has no advantages over Eagle? Speed? Agility? Resists? Capless weapons? Irrelevent for anti-support work.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:18:00 - [4] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 18:17:56 ed: whoops
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Waxau Would it be a compliment if i were to compare your whines to that of Jojos goungming? All you do is spam the same arguements, on any situation where popularity for one ship is greater than the minmatar equivilent. Honestly.. Wait? I'm a minmatar whiner now? Anyway, to respond to this assault with some usefull info. My arguments don't change because the situation hasnt changed from what was previously being argued.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 18:54:00 - [6] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 18:58:39 Yea, but see, it doesnt lack damage. The Muninn as an anti-support ship is doing 192 DPS or so. The Eagle is now doing 240 DPS or so at the Muninns optimal range. The Muninn is going to have an alpha of some 1250 damage, the Eagle only 850. But the difference is more than made up by the fact that the Eagle is doing 25% more dps. Now, you might say "but the eagle doesnt do 240 dps at its farthest optimal range" and that would be correct. But it is also irrelevent, becasue if you are making the choice for less damage and more range then you must be accepting that the higher range is worth more than the lower damage. And then you have both options on the Eagle where you only have the one option on the Muninn. But yea, those AC muninns sure are awesome... I know ill fly them instead of an AC vagabond which has an extra med slot and a falloff boost, that is totally smart! God, why didn't i think of this before waxau!! So basicially you are saying that the Muninns role is to be "only as good as the eagle, maybe, at its optimal range, with less options, or be a worse vagabond?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.02 19:18:00 - [7] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 19:21:17 Edited by: Goumindong on 02/03/2008 19:18:32 none of them can kill anything that closes, you simply get to a point where you can hit them again by either warping out and warping back in, or arranging yourself at a point where the enemy will not close to your location. In this instance the Muninn doesnt really have any versitility over the Eagle. As an anti-support ship it needs a specific advantage against the Eagle. Which it had when the eagle only had 4 turrets. ed: and if this is the advantage of the Muninn then what role is it supposed to fill?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 02:11:00 - [8] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/03/2008 02:13:29 Originally by: Rastigan bunch of wrong stuff 1. We are working on the new 5 turret eagle, not the current 4 turret eagle. 2. Use faction ammo. Only the eagle has the range to make use of long range t2 ammo. Specificially trade down to thorium for the eagle. A 5 gun zealot will not be obsoleting them both. LOL @ a tank on a long range anti-support cruiser.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 05:37:00 - [9] Originally by: SirMoric I hear a lot of theoretical stuff in this thread. But does anyone have any experience fighthing in an Eagle, or even better, been up against a Muninn in an Eagle, or the other way around? Yes, and eagles are currently more effective anti-support than Muninns in practice. Especially in practice with high lag. [which makes range more variable increasing the need for long range ammo] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 03/03/2008 04:10:45 Eagle is going to be comparable in fleet at 100km, getting better as the range gets higher. Muninn will remain better at everything else. Unfortunatly, "everything else" is a moot when its a specific role taken up by some other ship. If the eagle didnt do enough damage at the end of its range then they could have given it a boost to its DPS out there[ammo specific boost], if the eagle didnt do enough damage at the begining of its range they could have added damage down there[more missiles/drones/ammo specific boost]. As is is though, it totally eclipses the Muninn and Zealot. Originally by: Rastigan Multiply the Eagles damage by 1.25 to compare it to 5 turrets. I did, its why you have a 242 DPS eagle at 95km. [CN thorium] Quote: An AC Muninn is still eleventy billion times a better idea than a blaster Eagle. How is a 5 gun Eagle going to be fit ? I rarely fly Eagles because as it is, its a crappy ship to fly ( I use Vultures instead .) Eleventy billion times zero is still zero. Actually, that just plain isnt true. Blaster eagles do fairly decent dps with huge shield amounts and great relative speed/agility. Since, unlike armor tanked ships they can tank themselves without reducing their agility and speed, they actually make one of the faster and most agile tanked HAC tacklers while puting out respectable DPS. This actually gives them a role over the deimos, where the deimos in order to achieve eagle quality hit points must sacrifice all its agility and speed advantage[1600rt + trimarks]. Its still probably better for an eagle pilot to skill a deimos though. Of course, for the Vagabond there is simply no comparison. Its faster than the Muninn, has a falloff bonus over the Muninn, more agile, has a smaller sig, does nearly as much raw dps and much more real dps[falloff bonus], and has an extra med slot for either tanking or ewar.[This is assuming the utterly ridiculuos armor tanked vagabond which, despite being ridiculous is still better than the AC muninn]. And to top it off no other skill training is required. These things combine to mean that the beagle is probably a better bet than the AC muninn, since there is no close range option on the same skill path as the Eagle and there is a close range option on the same skill path as the Muninn.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 07:55:00 - [10] Amarr are the tank/gank race and so should have their ships with the most hit points and highest dps of all ships in the game. Oh wait, its not fun when ships are better and not different... 1. I do not ignore alpha strike, et all. Its simply that that the eagle is equal or better where the muninn ought to be AS WELL as the premiere long range ship. You simply lie because otherwise you have no in against the argument. 2. I do not ignore shooting cruisers et all. But your primary target is interceptors and you will not be able to change ammos in a fight. If you are going after cruisers et all, then you would be better off every time in a battleship. I can see the argument that the zealot has more versitility in the medium range, but the Muninn doesnt. Its an anti-support sniper. I know you dont like the fact that the vulture and eagle aren't currently horribly overpowered, and that CCP doesnt think that the vulture should be the ultimate end game anti-support sniper[as it is now], but really you are just going to have to deal with being very good at your role and not "overpowered" in your role.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 14:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Julio Torres Originally by: Goumindong 2. I do not ignore shooting cruisers et all. But your primary target is interceptors and you will not be able to change ammos in a fight. If you are going after cruisers et all, then you would be better off every time in a battleship. Those battleships will be busy shooting other battleships. So it is irrelevant how much better they are at it. No, its not. If you have a job to do you bring the best ship for the job. I.E. who wins this fight 40 battleships + 10 support + 10 anti-support vs 30 battleships + 10 HACs shooting HACs + 10 support + 10 anti-support? A: The 40 battleship gang. 10 of those battleships can shoot HACs and they will still be better off than the 30 battleship gang. Making the determination that they ought to be shooting battleships instead of cruisers simply reinforces the point that the anti-support HACs should not be shooting cruisers, since this is a value determination and you have determined that the value of the ship to shoot cruisers is less valuable than the value of the ship to shoot battleships.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 19:29:00 - [12] That is a terrible fitting.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 22:20:00 - [13] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/03/2008 22:25:11 Originally by: welsh wizard No it doesnt. dps is approximately the same upto 100km and the muninn has drones and a much higher alpha. At sub 100km you're still better off in a Muninn. DPS is aprox the same from 60-100km[effective range due to tracking] currently. With the 5 turrets, the eagle is running at 25% advantage. So instead of the muninn being better in its specialty, it is only equal. This gives one no reason to fly a Muninn, for you can fill either niche just as well, and do other things better with the eagle. ed: If you are fitting anything other than the biggest longest range guns and cramming your meds with sensor boosters and tracking computers[and an MWD] when flying a Muninn or Eagle you are flying a "LOL" fit. If the eagles problem is versatility then fix its versatility. If its problem is that it doesn't do enough DPS at range, fix its dps at range[and do nothing for its DPS elsewhere]. Don't "fix" it by making it overpowered in all regards against other ships that fill the same role. ed: If you are fitting anything other than the biggest longest range guns and cramming your meds with sensor boosters and tracking computers when flying a Muninn or Eagle you are flying a "LOL" fit. If the eagles problem is versatility then fix its versatility. If its problem is that it doesn't do enough DPS at range, fix its dps at range[and do nothing for its DPS elsewhere]. Don't "fix" it by making it overpowered in all regards against other ships that fill the same role.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 23:38:00 - [14] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/03/2008 23:42:43 Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 03/03/2008 23:01:11 Sigh, I'm not that arsed anymore. Be just as happy with a 25m3 drone bay and 4 turrets. I think you're blowing its effectiveness way out of proportion though and vice versa wrt Muninn ineffectiveness. Originally by: Veryez .... Completely disagree, a Munnins alpha strike on anything sub hac resist/size is still of great benefit. They could have also given it 5 turrets and a 25% bonus in damage to spike, iorn and faction equivalents. But the scope of the imblance here is not small. The issue is that it cannot easily be seen because both ships are not shooting against each other, but against smaller ships. Is the thorax or maller better against frigates? The thorax of course, but the maller still kills them. Does this mean we shouldn't fix the Maller to have a usefull role? Does it mean we shouldnt make it fill the same role as the thorax differently? So why can we see why the thorax is so much better than the maller? Because part of their role is to provide DPS and the thorax makes the maller look like a chump in that regard.[interchange maller with Omen at your leisure] Its the main problem with the people who think this change is O.K. they dont want different, they want beter. That is not O.K. edit: Given the choice to fly two different anti-support ships One does X and X only one does X and Y and will do either with simple changes in ammo and/or scripts. Which do you choose? A: You choose the one that does X and Y
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.03 23:54:00 - [15] Originally by: KD.Fluffy Why should the muninn be as good of a sniper as the race whose specialty is sniping?.... If the muninn should perform as well in that role as the eagle, then the cerb should speed tank as well as a vagabond. Seriously, things are different in this game. Get over it, muninn trumps eagle in dps at modoerate ranges, and has a drone bay. It can also fit two launchers to deal with tacklers. Eagle is in no way out of line or broken with 5 turrets. Why should the long range, low damage race be better than the higher damage lower range race at the lower ranges race optimal range? But nice try at the strawman. Yea, it makes sense that railguns do a bit more DPS when they only have a slight range advantage. But these railguns do not only have a slight range advantage, they have a huge range advantage. Give the eagle 5 turrets, 2 damage bonuses and only one optimal bonus and things will look right again. Of course, then the eagle might be a bit too strong against the Deimos. Something to keep in mind. A 5 turret, 2 damage bonus, one optimal bonus eagle does less damage at 90km than 1 damage bonus, two optimal bonus, 5 turret eagle. P.S. The cerberus does the nano-game as well as the Vagabond. Differently[using agility, ewar, and trackingless DPS to deal damage in a gang and get out fast], but about as well. Its much harder to compare the relative strength of ships in the short range when role is so loosely defined[get in fast, get out fast, not get hurt]. But both do the same job, just differently.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.04 01:24:00 - [16] Eagle will alpha PODs, and the Muninn needs two volleys for frigs. Low HP frigs an eagle is strictly better at and pods are a wash for each. Remote reps? Getting ganked? How are these going to be usefull in large gangs? not that eagles wouldnt be better at it due to the resist bonused shield tank. If you arent, you fly something faster with closer range guns, like a vagabond. Originally by: KD.Fluffy The eagle will be able to match the muninn's damage at its optimal now. We've been through this argument before, eagle will be better at shooting interceptors. Thats the only thing. Muninn has capless guns, much large alpha, more agility, a drone bay, and two launchers. Imo, the eagle is so specialized and situation while muninn is not. If you want the muninn to perform as well at extreme ranges as the eagle, take away its drone bay, and one missle hard point. Then we will talk. The eagle was already able to match the Muninn's damage at its optimal. In fact it does a tad bit more than the Muninn right now[194 eagle vs 192 Muninn]. The Muninn has capless guns[worthless], larger alpha[only thing valuable on the list], more agility[LIES, the Muninn is not more agile than the eagle], a drone bay[more or less useless], and 2 missiles[so does the eagle]. The eagle should not be better in every way than the Muninn, sorry the Muninn needs some legitimate area where it has an advantage.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.04 02:48:00 - [17] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/03/2008 02:48:42 Only the eagle can use t2 ammo and even then its not a very good idea. The Muninn does not have the range to hit with it due to the tracking penalties. The muninn isn't more agile. The missile slots and drones do not help the ship in its role. Sp yea, they are pretty moot.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.04 17:22:00 - [18] A cerb survives the same way a vagabond survives, by keeping range. It isn't going to be a solo ship, but its going to be better in a gang where its range and DPS are more useful than the vagabonds survivability.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:35:00 - [19] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/03/2008 23:37:02 Originally by: KD.Fluffy Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 04/03/2008 19:25:48 Quote: It doesn't need to, because it doesn't have to slow down to deal damage, where the Vagabond does. But saying the cerb is as good of a speed tank as the vaga is a flat out lie. It can buffer tank, not speed tank. Heck vaga can travel at the cerbs max speed and still hit most targets. I've had vagas orbiting me at 3km/s ish and still hitting me just fine. anyways, you guys are loosing my point here. Asking for the muninn to be as good a sniper as the eagle is like asking for the cerb to be as good a speed tank as the vaga, which imo would be stupid. No, we are saying that its a similar nano ship. That its effect is different and not better both for the vagabond, which may be faster, but has to slow down, and the Cerberus, which may be slower, but never has to slow down and is never out of range. "speed tank" is not a role. No one is asking for the Muninn to hit 180km with its arties, all they are asking is that, at the range it does hit, and only at the range it does hit, it has a clear advantage against the competition so that is not become obsolete.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.05 00:20:00 - [20] Because its just not feasible at the ranges and gang sizes. Not to mention that drones are terrible at the type of stuff we are talking about.

Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.16 20:27:00 - [21] Use faction ammo.

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