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[Flameproof suit on] It's really time to shard

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flaming phantom Minmatar Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.04 18:08:00 - [31] i think if your having problems with lag then your not being a good enough griefer to others enough to make them leave the game
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp	Posted - 2008.03.04 18:14:00 - [32] yes... do something... OMFG I am the widowmaker stay tuned.
Berand Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.04 18:24:00 - [33] Topic should be renamed "Drizit's proposal for how to kill what makes Eve unique." One of the biggest things that makes Eve fun is the single world. It allows for celebrities, for famous events, for events that actually matter. No one cares about some event on a WoW server, because it's just one little server that's irrelevant to all the others. In fact I think WoW is still accepting new signups, if you want to go check that out.
Max Torps Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.04 18:31:00 - [34] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 04/03/2008 14:46:45 The thing that makes EVE great, the community's social interaction, would be lost. No longer would one group be "known as from Curse, who live and gank the local missioners", it would become "we don't know them, they play on a different server". That thought repels me. I'm glad CCP have a vision they're working with, a more weakly willed set of devs may have given in a long time ago. This, tbh. The fact that you or your corp/alliance have the opportunity to grow and make a name for yourself is what makes Eve great. The thought of 20 Eve shards and deserted systems just makes me shudder. STARFLEET COMMS - Eve blogs, groups and forums
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 18:39:00 - [35] Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 18:39:23 Sharding WILL help servers cause CCP will know how much ppl servers should be able to handle. But no. -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Skjorta	Posted - 2008.03.04 18:41:00 - [36] Dear OP, GTFO. The same thing I said to the last 10 billion topics on this. Also DIAF.
Zaerlorth Maelkor	Posted - 2008.03.04 18:50:00 - [37] No sharding! There is no mmo so far that could handle 200 vs. 200 fights very well. WoW not excluded. Infiniband and ambulation will help these issues alot. The overpopulated systems will have more than half the population loaded on a "seperate" server altogether, reducing the load significantly. Infiniband, and trash clean up will help alot on the lag too. Let's see the effect of these things before you take a step with completely unknown consequences, like sharding. ================================================== I should really get a sig.
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.03.04 19:01:00 - [38] Originally by: Zaerlorth Maelkor No sharding! Infiniband and ambulation will help these issues alot. The overpopulated systems will have more than half the population loaded on a "seperate" server altogether. Isn't CCPs goal to keep Eve on a single server then going to go down the drain? If as you state, going to be on a "Seperate server" then CCP have already taken the 1st steps into breaking there main goal. 1 Server or have a misunderstood, (not flaming i just don't keep up with CCP's pipe dreams) V8I
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar The Royal Engineers Free Trade and Industries Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:12:00 - [39] Originally by: Max Torps Originally by: Sakura Nihil Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 04/03/2008 14:46:45 The thing that makes EVE great, the community's social interaction, would be lost. No longer would one group be "known as from Curse, who live and gank the local missioners", it would become "we don't know them, they play on a different server". That thought repels me. I'm glad CCP have a vision they're working with, a more weakly willed set of devs may have given in a long time ago. This, tbh. The fact that you or your corp/alliance have the opportunity to grow and make a name for yourself is what makes Eve great. The thought of 20 Eve shards and deserted systems just makes me shudder. Absolutely true. Sharding Eve would destroy the comunity, and make it like any other general avarage grind.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.03.04 22:13:00 - [40] Originally by: An Anarchyyt So then what about one week later when people have claimed those areas and the cycle begins again? Of course, it is completely possible for a small group of newer players to band together and start an alliance and work on getting 0.0. All alliances started somewhere. Yeah yeah yeah, "Goons aren't even playing EVE, they're playing Something Awful" and "Goons are just all troll alts" and "hurf blurf" and all that crap aside... if you actually read goon posts, about every third or fourth one is a gem of knowledge that makes sifting through all the other Goon posts worth the while. EVE isn't broken - at least, not THIS part of it. I don't WANT to gb2/WoW, I wanna stay in New Eden where I belong. No sharding.
pyr8t Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.03.04 22:40:00 - [41] Originally by: Naomi Wildfire Make EVE like a Round based Strategy Game! Player 1: Make your Move Player 2: Make your Move Player 3... ... ... Player 37345: It's your turn now Lag is gone :D I'd argue this is the game we have now.
Alex Raptos Caldari The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:19:00 - [42] No, just no, eve is all about the single server, thats what its appeal is, plus, technically some people see every system as a "different shard" hell jita holds a tyon of people.
Agil TradeAlt	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:29:00 - [43] Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 04/03/2008 23:30:02 The server should not shard. The players should shard. Eve is perfectly fine for almsot everything. Only lag in eve is jita with its 700 local, and deep 0.0 fleet wars where 600 vs 100 force the system to collapse. Heck, even a month ago, a Titan soloed 800 in local in a 3 hour battle. 100vs 100 is stable and reasonable lag free. So why dont people do 6 waves of 100 vs the 100 defenders? Why lag out the system with 600 vs 100 in one go? Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:31:00 - [44] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 04/03/2008 23:32:20 /signed to the OP Forget Infiniband and all that stuff, CCP is way too slow to fix lag, they are 2-3 years behind with server capacity / code fixes to accomodate for the number of players. Bite the sour apple and shard it already, the new players will find a much more pleasing experience on a new server and stay longer, the veterans will find the lag-free TQ much better too (even the narrow-minded religious "unsharded" fanatics). PS. they can always add a wormhole or so to travel between the servers if one day they manage to fix the lag... EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Andtha Splits	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:31:00 - [45] CCP will never shard EVE. I'm sure i read as much on a fanfest conference slide (via video of course). And that's just the way it should be.
Vikarion Caldari United Heavens	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:46:00 - [46] Nope. No sharding. Sharding bad. I'd rather deal with lag than two servers. --------
Oldin Kinrod	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:53:00 - [47] Originally by: Pan Crastus PS. they can always add a wormhole or so to travel between the servers if one day they manage to fix the lag... You know that's essentially what the stargates are right? I think most people that bring this idea up are under the impression that the EVE 'server' runs on a single uber computer - which is so far wrong that everyone jumps to flame them. AFAIK it's a server cluster, where each constellation (this is where I'm not 100% sure) except Jita run on a seperate box, all networked together. So to 'shard' EVE would mean to replicate the current cluster, of god knows how many machines, in an attempt to 'alleviate lag'. Or, as most people point out everytime this topic appears, the players for once could take the problem into their own hands and take a different approach. The main cause of lag seems to come from blobs, whether they come from fleets or mission/market hubs, and choke the server node to the point of breakdown. Myself, I've never really experienced any bad server lag - even in Jita on a Sunday - but I have noticed some client side lag due to my 300ms ping to the server. The only real way to combat the server lag is through hardware, and more efficient network coding - which is the whole point behind the Infiniband project. People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions?
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.03.05 00:12:00 - [48] Originally by: Oldin Kinrod Originally by: Pan Crastus PS. they can always add a wormhole or so to travel between the servers if one day they manage to fix the lag... You know that's essentially what the stargates are right? I think most people that bring this idea up are under the impression that the EVE 'server' runs on a single uber computer - which is so far wrong that everyone jumps to flame them. AFAIK it's a server cluster, where each constellation (this is where I'm not 100% sure) except Jita run on a seperate box, all networked together. So to 'shard' EVE would mean to replicate the current cluster, of god knows how many machines, in an attempt to 'alleviate lag'. Or, as most people point out everytime this topic appears, the players for once could take the problem into their own hands and take a different approach. The main cause of lag seems to come from blobs, whether they come from fleets or mission/market hubs, and choke the server node to the point of breakdown. Myself, I've never really experienced any bad server lag - even in Jita on a Sunday - but I have noticed some client side lag due to my 300ms ping to the server. The only real way to combat the server lag is through hardware, and more efficient network coding - which is the whole point behind the Infiniband project. Your idea of EVE is far too simplistic. EVE is both "sharded" in that some parts of the solar systems are isolated from the rest of the universe and "unsharded" in that some other parts are "global" (contracts, chat, ...). Making 2 completely isolated servers ("server" like TQ is one) with their own hardware and database has many more benefits than just adding new nodes. If you haven't experienced any bad server lag, better keep out of the discussion, it means you haven't been around long and haven't seen much of the game. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.05 00:24:00 - [49] Edited by: Rastigan on 05/03/2008 00:23:58 Originally by: Drizit no Different servers to me = the end of Eve.. Eve is already run on multiple servers, 'sharding' would fix the lag as much as moving to a depopulated area. Click on your map click on players in space for the last 30 minutes button , and move to the black areas... Want some 0.0 action ? Join an alliance, negotiate with one for rights to live there, or fight for it...
Vymorna Grom Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.05 00:32:00 - [50] Different servers means game over. A single server is what makes EVE unique, and quite attractive. Allow CCP to come up with a made-for-one-server solution, and please stop ***** with my subscription money. Here's the funniest bit: New players looking at 0.0 now see a big blob owned entirely by existing alliances. No open space to start their own empires and compete for areas. Boo ***** hoo. You seriously need to put EVE down, this isn't the game for you, apparently.
Jebidus Skari Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.05 00:51:00 - [51] Originally by: Skyr No. Why don't you read a little bit more forums and educate yourself on step CCP is planning to undertake to combat lag and improve server performance. Most notably Infiniband (spelling?). There are ALWAYS steps to improve lag, but its just gets worse and worse, sorry but im sick of hearing its getting sorted excuse..When its blantantly not..You cant even have a 50 v 50 fight without serious lag..Its pathetic tbh...This non sharding simply doesnt work.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP	Posted - 2008.03.05 00:51:00 - [52] I dont like the fact that all 0.0 is becoming is just large powerblocs, blobs, and massive lag. And I wonder what thier next action will be, adding more space to 0.0 really doesnt do much for getting new faces in 0.0, becuase more than likely the same alliances we have now will just expand there powerblocs out there with pets and such. Also any further expansion in made much harder by the fact that CCP forces 0.0 players into using npc-only items in order to exist. Making th fursther you go out from empire the harder it is to live, and right now the only possible expansion i see is outside of the current 0.0, making it impossible for new allainces to settle there, not only due to already established powerblocs, but due to the sheer amount of logistics that would be needed to survive 50jumps from empire would make it a pain in the ass. I think that instead of a different shard CCP could expand 0.0 in any direction. We could have multiple intersecting platters of 0.0, that are just far enough away from each other to prevent capital movement between the 0.0 systems, but are all still connected to empire. My Blog
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.05 01:12:00 - [53] Originally by: ghosttr I dont like the fact that all 0.0 is becoming is just large powerblocs, blobs, and massive lag. And I wonder what thier next action will be, adding more space to 0.0 really doesnt do much for getting new faces in 0.0, becuase more than likely the same alliances we have now will just expand there powerblocs out there with pets and such. Also any further expansion in made much harder by the fact that CCP forces 0.0 players into using npc-only items in order to exist. Making th fursther you go out from empire the harder it is to live, and right now the only possible expansion i see is outside of the current 0.0, making it impossible for new allainces to settle there, not only due to already established powerblocs, but due to the sheer amount of logistics that would be needed to survive 50jumps from empire would make it a pain in the ass. I think that instead of a different shard CCP could expand 0.0 in any direction. We could have multiple intersecting platters of 0.0, that are just far enough away from each other to prevent capital movement between the 0.0 systems, but are all still connected to empire. 8-12 new regions of NPC sov with lots of empire connections but no/very few connections to other 0.0 regions. Would be a lovely PvP playground with little POS warfare... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Oldin Kinrod	Posted - 2008.03.05 01:17:00 - [54] Originally by: Pan Crastus Your idea of EVE is far too simplistic. Please enlighten me where my idea is "far too simplistic". I never stated that I knew exactly how the servers ran, or the loads they may experience. Quote: EVE is both "sharded" in that some parts of the solar systems are isolated from the rest of the universe and "unsharded" in that some other parts are "global" (contracts, chat, ...). But that is not what the conversation was about, yes I agree that there is some information that is hidden from the user depending on his/her location, but as far as the underlying architecture of the server - it is unsharded. I can start a conversation with anyone, no matter where they are in EVE. The parts that are "sharded" as you put it are done so to add game elements - for example, if you could check every regions market, trade wouldn't be anywhere as lucrative as it is now. Or how about checking out the system your about to travel to? Sure you can get basic stats, but you cannot tell WHO is in that system without someone already there to relay the intel back to you. Quote: Making 2 completely isolated servers ("server" like TQ is one) with their own hardware and database has many more benefits than just adding new nodes. List them. I know that actually sharding EVE means going further than just adding new nodes - because that isn't sharding EVE at all. But one of the main drawing points for most people, other than internet space ships, is the fact that EVE is one big universe - I know that was the reason I signed up. Quote: If you haven't experienced any bad server lag, better keep out of the discussion, it means you haven't been around long and haven't seen much of the game. So just because I haven't experienced this "horrible lag" first handed (apparently we must be talking about some different type of lag that Jita experiences) I can't have my say. I have a rather in depth experience about what causes lag - I don't see why I need to have actually been involved in a blob fleet battle to know that it's most probably caused by stress on the server node's hardware and database calls. I also don't see how that could mean that I haven't seen much of the game or been around long - Judging by you forums post record I've probably been around as long as you, but I ditched my starting character a long time ago. People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions?
Spectre80 Caldari The Knights Templar Pure.	Posted - 2008.03.05 01:25:00 - [55] yes
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.03.05 01:54:00 - [56] Originally by: Oldin Kinrod So just because I haven't experienced this "horrible lag" first handed (apparently we must be talking about some different type of lag that Jita experiences) I can't have my say. You can have your say but it isn't relevant, sorry. People who say that they haven't had horrible lag in EVE do not play much or are lying. Quote: I don't see why I need to have actually been involved in a blob fleet battle to know that it's most probably caused by stress on the server node's hardware and database calls. You don't need to be in blob fleet battles nowdays to experience tremendous lag, just because every major fleet battle is screwed up by lag. Read this forum more. PS. I nearly gave up trying to post after around 20 login attempts (no exaggeration). It doesn't infuse me with confidence that CCP is capable of fixing the problems that are plagueing EVE. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.03.05 02:08:00 - [57] Originally by: Jebidus Skari ...This non sharding simply doesnt work. What makes you think for one second that 50 vs. 50 fleet battles on a 'new shard' TQ2 would be any different...? Sharding isn't the solution to laggy fleet engagements. If they made a new Live Shard, it would be empty at first and within a six months (IF that long) it would be the same as what we have now (blobs engaging blobs in the battle for 0.0 regions with good truesec or good moons or good npc agents, ultimately resulting in laggy fleet fights). It would change nothing, other than to shatter the immersiveness (idk if that's a word or if I spelled it right...) that the un-sharded approach creates. Shards would just lead to a bunch of New Edens full of players kvetching about the same problems (jita is too laggy, node crashed and saved <insert alliance name>'s titan, etc., etc., etc....)
Zantrei Kordisin True Centii	Posted - 2008.03.05 02:42:00 - [58] Hmm. No. Yours, Zantrei K.
Sarakiel	Posted - 2008.03.05 02:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Naomi Wildfire Make EVE like a Round based Strategy Game! Player 1: Make your Move Player 2: Make your Move Player 3... ... ... Player 37345: It's your turn now Lag is gone :D I LOL`d irl. Seriously, get out of empire, CCP never invisioned a game that would have to handle 78% of its players in the noob training grounds.
Hippy Dave	Posted - 2008.03.05 04:14:00 - [60] Simply put - NO The new EVE would have to be built first costing tons of cash in both hardware and extra employees to maintain it. For reasons already detailed it would not benefit new player much at all as it would soon become a carbon copy of Tranq, with the same trade hub lag, the same fleet battle lag etc etc And imagine the field day the isk farmers would have on a new unpopulated server... Also the reason new players can get cash so readily now is down to the economy which has developed slowly over the years and is for the most part kept alive by the big corps and alliances. A new eve would be ground zero, no big money for months and months... And CCP have always said they wouldnt do it.. All of the supporters of this asshat idea use blob lag as their main argument. How in any way would a second eve server prevent 100s of people still fighting in one system and lagging the server, and the only other issue is Jita, do you not think the new EVE would soon have its own Jita with all the same issues. And imagine the logisical nightmare for CCP of maintaining two eves. Idea = EPIC FAIL

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