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Ozstar
Naughty 40 Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.07 11:28:00 -
[1]
CCP's solution to cull the growing number of supercapitals was the addition of the Heavy Interdictor, however - are they too easy to train?
discuss.
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.03.07 11:30:00 -
[2]
only as easy as a hac... and that takes a fair while to train for. -
If a pig loses his voice...is he disgruntled?
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kamdem
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Posted - 2008.03.07 11:30:00 -
[3]
If you consider them too easy to train then surely HACS and Recons are the same. Lets face it there was a need for a ship that could lock down supercaps.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.07 11:43:00 -
[4]
I don't think they are over-easy to train. And they do require a load of excellent support skills to fit/fight properly that are not usually taken into account. At least the Broadsword does in terms of getting the most out of passive/semi-passive tanks.
And they really are one trick ponies. And generally pretty boring to fly (activate permascram and go to fridge for snack and beverage of choice).
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Waxau
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Posted - 2008.03.07 11:43:00 -
[5]
Hictors are fine tbh. What has been done, and tbh - Rather clever too...is now NORMAL dictors are the ships to use.
Hictors to all intents and purposes are great. But their bubbles are 1. Too small, unless you're fast with the webs on gate camps. And B. Too slow.
Dictors on the other hand need more 'out of the way' training (destroyers 5 anyone? :P) and are damn effective ships. Good speed, okish firepower vs frigs and the like....And large bubble sizes. And ofc, the ability to bubble even when you arent there (bubbling and jumping thru gates ftw!)
And whilst i may be a 'hictor' pilot, i still consider hictors to be for the 'wannabe' dictor pilots. Atleast thats how i feel. If it werent for destroyer 5, id train up for them instantly.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.07 13:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Akita T on 07/03/2008 13:01:44
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad only as easy as a hac... and that takes a fair while to train for.
Actually, HICtors are almost as easy to train for "from scratch" as regular interdictors, if you consider the entire loadout, in terms of pure SP needed. And a bit easier to train for compared to a HAC, just in slightly different areas.
Considering HICtors are hugely more powerful compared to a regular interdictor, and the only advantage/disadvantage is they carry the bubble with them all the time instead of using ammo to drop it, then get away...
YES, heavy interdictors are too easy to train for.
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Waxau
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Posted - 2008.03.07 13:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 07/03/2008 13:01:44
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad only as easy as a hac... and that takes a fair while to train for.
Actually, HICtors are almost as easy to train for "from scratch" as regular interdictors, if you consider the entire loadout, in terms of pure SP needed. And a bit easier to train for compared to a HAC, just in slightly different areas.
Considering HICtors are hugely more powerful compared to a regular interdictor, and the only advantage/disadvantage is they carry the bubble with them all the time instead of using ammo to drop it, then get away...
YES, heavy interdictors are too easy to train for.
Minus the fact that theyre slower, with smaller bubbles, which ofc means they scramble themselves too?
Compared to normal dictors where they're scot free most of the time due to their speed?
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Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.07 13:13:00 -
[8]
I think they are too easy to get into. I assume all "pvp characters" have at least racial frig 5 and racial cruiser 5 (+ lvl4 bs and lvl4 large guns).
From this point getting into heavy dictor is MUCH easier than going for normal ones (mostly due to destroyer skill and dictor skill which prereq's interceptors too).
Adding prerequisite of interdictors lvl4 would be a good move imo.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.07 13:14:00 -
[9]
And, as I was saying, that's their only weakness compared to a regular 'dictor. On the other hand, you never use any (relatively) expensive ammo that might run out at the most unexpected moment, and at least two of them can get a passive shield tank from hell while still "doing their job". Not only that, but they're quite easy to fit, even with serious plating/extending, and can actually survive an engagement without being one-volleyed by a couple of lucky snipers.
Regular interdictors can't do a lot of the things that HICtors can (like, tank or gank, for instance, or perma-lock a location even while solo... or, well, clear out the interdiction zone by moving away in case slow allies need to move out faster and bubble time hasn't yet expired), while HICtors can do almost everything a 'dictor can (except locking down several points at the same time since they don't actually need to be there all the time).
And all of that comes with almost identical total SP needs. You'd think there would at least be some OTHER extra skills they'd need to have compared to a regular interdictor. Or, hmm, say, require Interdictors L4 to train, that would be a nice start.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.03.07 13:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire I think they are too easy to get into. I assume all "pvp characters" have at least racial frig 5 and racial cruiser 5 (+ lvl4 bs and lvl4 large guns).
You assume too much, tbh.
Funnily enough, I trained destroyers V to get the max out of my destroyers (which are fun dirt cheap ships with nice ganking power) and instead of training cruiser V i'm training BC V instead
At any rate, "people have the skills trained to fly HACs/X/Y" doesn't do anything about the fact that the SP required to fly HICs is bigger then the SP required to fly dictors.
I mean, quit whining about destroyers V, it's a ten day train.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Sexiest Beast
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Posted - 2008.03.07 13:30:00 -
[11]
Ship Cruiser V Spaceship Command V Propulsion Jamming V Weapon Upgrades V
Bubble Graviton Physics V Science v Engineering V
I'm not sure I would call that "easy"
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Johan Quinn
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Posted - 2008.03.07 14:00:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Johan Quinn on 07/03/2008 14:01:10
Originally by: Waxau Hictors are fine tbh. What has been done, and tbh - Rather clever too...is now NORMAL dictors are the ships to use.
Hictors to all intents and purposes are great. But their bubbles are 1. Too small, unless you're fast with the webs on gate camps. And B. Too slow.
Dictors on the other hand need more 'out of the way' training (destroyers 5 anyone? :P) and are damn effective ships. Good speed, okish firepower vs frigs and the like....And large bubble sizes. And ofc, the ability to bubble even when you arent there (bubbling and jumping thru gates ftw!) And whilst i may be a 'hictor' pilot, i still consider hictors to be for the 'wannabe' dictor pilots. Atleast thats how i feel. If it werent for destroyer 5, id train up for them instantly.
Normal dictors used to be good, not anymore. Bubbles cause aggro if someone tries to warp (no jumping thru), they are now slow and cant kill any frig, maybe except t1. A sabre cannot catch any frig anymore, it is really a flying coffin. Crows can kill it, a half decent Rail Ranis can kill it, Sader can kill it. It has been made much too slow to be useful for its supposed role as a Frigate killer. Dont get me started on the other Races, which are utter crap and much too slow. Amarr would be better off with a turret dictor than the rocket turd they have now. Im really ****ed that I Trained for Dictors and then they go badly nerfed. I used to fly these things all the time and have fun in them, now they are just a liability.
The only thing going for them is the fact the bubbles pull stuff out of warp whcih can lead to some good tactics on gates.
I suggest you train dessie 5 and learn for yourself. Oh and dessie 5 is worth it casue Thrashers and Cormies can rock.
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Dreadmuppet Four
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Posted - 2008.03.07 14:33:00 -
[13]
no
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Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.07 14:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Waxau Hictors are fine tbh. What has been done, and tbh - Rather clever too...is now NORMAL dictors are the ships to use.
Hictors to all intents and purposes are great. But their bubbles are 1. Too small, unless you're fast with the webs on gate camps. And B. Too slow.
Dictors on the other hand need more 'out of the way' training (destroyers 5 anyone? :P) and are damn effective ships. Good speed, okish firepower vs frigs and the like....And large bubble sizes. And ofc, the ability to bubble even when you arent there (bubbling and jumping thru gates ftw!)
And whilst i may be a 'hictor' pilot, i still consider hictors to be for the 'wannabe' dictor pilots. Atleast thats how i feel. If it werent for destroyer 5, id train up for them instantly.
erm... dictor bubbles are 20km right? well so are hictor bubbles at lvl5...
Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
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Zirconium Blade
Ass Pounding Space Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.03.07 14:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide
erm... dictor bubbles are 20km right? well so are hictor bubbles at lvl5...
So destroyers 5 vs racial cruiser 5 and HIC 5
What was that about HIC's being too easy to train?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.07 15:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Zirconium Blade So destroyers 5 vs racial cruiser 5 and HIC 5 What was that about HIC's being too easy to train?
COMMON NEEDED SKILLS: * Propulsion Jamming 5 (768k SP both) * Graviton Physics (L1 vs L4, 220k SP difference, Sci/Eng 5 prerequisites, 512k SP)
INTERDICTOR: * Racial Frigate 5 (512k SP) * Destroyers 5 (512k SP) * Interceptors 4 (181k SP, plus Evasive Maneuvering prerequisite, 512k)
HEAVY 'DICTOR: * Racial Cruiser 5 (1280k SP) * Weapon Upgrades 5 (512k SP, which you need for AWU, which you need to fit a regular interdictor properly) * Spaceship command 5 (256k SP, vs "only" 45k needed for regular, so 211k SP difference)
GRAND TOTALS: Interdictor : a bit over 3 mil SP HICtor : a bit over 3.5 mil SP, out of which 0.5 mil you're likely to already HAVE if you plan on getting in a regular interdictor
Overall, almost identical "volume" of skilling-up needed.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.07 15:09:00 -
[17]
You already need Propulsion Jamming 5 for the relevant module that makes the ship "tick", so it makes no sense to have it "embedded" into the prerequisites for the SHIP itself. However, the one skill that would make sense, namely Interdictors 4, is not there.
Replacing PJ5 with I4 in the HICtor skill prerequisites would be the most logical thing to do. It would add almost 700k worth of SPs to the needed skill training (merely 2 weeks), would make sense from an RP perspective, and would make the skill/ship progression a bit more "pertinent".
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2008.03.07 15:18:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 07/03/2008 15:20:39
Originally by: Akita T
You already need Propulsion Jamming 5 for the relevant module that makes the ship "tick", so it makes no sense to have it "embedded" into the prerequisites for the SHIP itself. However, the one skill that would make sense, namely Interdictors 4, is not there.
Replacing PJ5 with I4 in the HICtor skill prerequisites would be the most logical thing to do. It would add almost 700k worth of SPs to the needed skill training (merely 2 weeks), would make sense from an RP perspective, and would make the skill/ship progression a bit more "pertinent".
I personally think it would make sense to include Interdictors IV, but it'll never happen because Interdictors IV is a Destroyer tree skill and CCP has always been against mixing requirements for the Destroyer tree and the Cruiser tree. Rather like Command Ships or Battlecruisers would never be a requirement for any T2 battleship. Although I do wish they would have made the progression more linear, I think it's a good compromise.
EDIT: as for the direct skill ocmparison, don't forget tanking and weapon support skills. T2 cruiser weapons take a lot longer to train for than T2 frigate weapons, plus the two use completely different forms of tanking (speed vs actual damage tank). Of course, the tanking skills are probably largely in common as well, but aren't really requirements. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Spaced Skunk
9omH.
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Posted - 2008.03.07 15:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sexiest Beast Ship Cruiser V Spaceship Command V Propulsion Jamming V Weapon Upgrades V
Bubble Graviton Physics IV Fixed, you give me a scare then, had to log on eve to see if I needed level 5 haha Science v Engineering V
I'm not sure I would call that "easy"
Basically all but Science 5, graviton physics 4 and propulsion jamming 5 your gunna train anyway. So the difference for me, would be roughly 4 weeks to get all the skills I just mentioned and HIC level 4. (2 weeks propulsion jamming, 5 days science, 6 days graviton physics from 0 to 4, and 5 days to get HIC from 0 to 4.)
So yea I would say quite a lot to train for really.
Oh and BTW I would use a focused script to hold down a super capital which is 28.8KM @ level 4 HIC.
To Spawny, a great guy, a great laugh. Rest in peace buddy.
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Agil TradeAlt
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Posted - 2008.03.07 15:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Waxau Compared to normal dictors where they're scot free most of the time due to their speed?
Dictor speed is being nerfed. Check out Sisi. its not longer the ninjamobile it used to be
Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
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Spaced Skunk
9omH.
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Posted - 2008.03.07 15:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Agil TradeAlt
Originally by: Waxau Compared to normal dictors where they're scot free most of the time due to their speed?
Dictor speed is being nerfed. Check out Sisi. its not longer the ninjamobile it used to be
It already has been nerfed.
To Spawny, a great guy, a great laugh. Rest in peace buddy.
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Waxau
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Posted - 2008.03.07 16:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Agil TradeAlt
Originally by: Waxau Compared to normal dictors where they're scot free most of the time due to their speed?
Dictor speed is being nerfed. Check out Sisi. its not longer the ninjamobile it used to be
They've already been nerfed. And ontop of that, show me a Hictor that can (with a proper setup) outrun a dictor?
The ships are split into two catagories. Hictors for camps, capitals, and heavy gangs. Dictors for fast moving, nanogangs and the like.
When you have a hostile fleet 50km off, its far easier to get the Dictor there, bubble, and keep mwding out of it. Far less effective to have a dictor either A. Slowboat (tank) or B. MWD to it, which will only be 1.5kms or so.
Each have their advantages and disadvantages. And neither share the same advantages.
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.07 16:42:00 -
[23]
nope they work just fine thank you, not to hard, not to soft, just right
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