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smitor
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 17:20:00 -
[1]
if you look beyond the tags under every name and just focus on the actual situation you will have the core problem with jammers, pos, deathstars and supercaps right at hand.
There is a balance issue when it comes to investing isk. A Defender who invested huge amounts of isk into a) getting a system sov up by placing and mainting pos b) dropping atleast 250-400 bln isk in 4 well fit titans (bpos included) c) dropping another 200-300 bln isk in 10 well fit motherships (bpos included) d) invested a few billion isk in pos fuel e) invested in a station 22 bln isk f) invested in a fleet of 50 dreads and 50 carriers billing total 200 bln isk ? is able to defend with about 200 active ppl a region from 600 ppl trying to disable the cyno jammer flying t2 fitted battleships/logistics.
Quality of equipment pays actually out seems the logic behind it. Is that something which is wrong ?
As Diana suggested if Jumpbridge use of titans was changed and maybe it took slightly more time to reonline a jammer the system would really work as intended.
Any other change is just going to help more the "bring numbers and you can crush any defence" crowd.
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smitor
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 05:15:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
Originally by: smitor
if you look beyond the tags under every name and just focus on the actual situation you will have the core problem with jammers, pos, deathstars and supercaps right at hand.
There is a balance issue when it comes to investing isk. A Defender who invested huge amounts of isk into a) getting a system sov up by placing and mainting pos b) dropping atleast 250-400 bln isk in 4 well fit titans (bpos included) c) dropping another 200-300 bln isk in 10 well fit motherships (bpos included) d) invested a few billion isk in pos fuel e) invested in a station 22 bln isk f) invested in a fleet of 50 dreads and 50 carriers billing total 200 bln isk ? is able to defend with about 200 active ppl a region from 600 ppl trying to disable the cyno jammer flying t2 fitted battleships/logistics.
Attacker who...
a) wants to attack sov system
b) dropped at least >500 bln ISK in X well fit Titans (BPOs included)
c) dropped another 400-500 bln into 20 well fit motherships (BPOs included)
d) invested a few billion ISK in isotopes to get into defender's systems (and let's add fuel for POSes that attackers are running now)
e) didn't invest anything in station, because they want to take it (investing in station gives you ****all advantage in defending - POSes and ships do)
f) invested in fleet of 100 dreads and 100 carriers billing total of gazillion ISK
...isn't able to actually attack a system, because defender can jumpbridge his whole capital fleet through jumpbridge modules that magically bring capitals (that require a cyno field to jump to) into a system with cynojammer (which prevents cyno fields from being generated).
I can imagine a logistics nightmare ("Hey guys, where do we keep Liquid Ozone? Ah, thanks.") involved in jumping capital fleet from J-L to F-T via jumpbridge, for example.
Must be horrible.
Well or maybe gamemechanics acutally require the attacker to spend a few "hundred bil" in waves of battleships which must die before a jammer goes down, instead of a 1-try roll-in where you simply smack everything down.
The whole points you try to make is that a "fortress" setup with cynojammer and titans actually benefits the defender who is usually already in a bad situation due to a) numbers stacked against him and b) not having the initiative. The last thing going for him, the ability to prepare his own turf is what you try to remove.
As i stated in my other post ive not seen you come here and cry for gamechanges when you were happily stronting every pos defence into russian primetime to get the maximum out of their tz advantage. Ive not seen you threadnought about "lag" when you rushed Lv's babytitan, ive not seen you make 10 threads to the subject when you annoyed the rise defenders with afk cloakergangs literally locking them out of their own coresystems. Keeping that in mind it seems abit odd you ask for a gamemechanic change as soon as it does suit your opposition and puts you in a hard place. Especially since you are just on try 2-3? to break prolly the best defended and best prepared region in eve.
Some other GS poster said this:
Originally by: Cursive
Seems right to me... 20 billion in BS' VS 250 billion in Titans, I sure hope the Titans win.
and thats where your issue is. You dont want to spend 4-5 times the 20 bln in failed attempts but instead give up after round two and blame the game for it.
Seeing that there is at this point of time just 1 single entity which seems to have caused this problem, namely BoB, who are prolly by far the most active, the most organized and one of the richest alliances ingame. This whole argument seems to be as Thol put it "nerf bob so i can win because i dont like to spend x billions in failed attempts".
For the first time since the first titan nerf we actually see the defender having an advantage over the sheer numbers of the coalition. Your selfproclaimed strategy "you can win all fights in k/d ratio but we still take stations from you"
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smitor
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 05:16:00 -
[3]
Edited by: smitor on 11/03/2008 05:17:11
2nd part:
is not working anymore.
Seems you actually have to win fights to nail the coffin shut. Especially with your helpers leaving you to do it yourself.
This time you actually must bleed and win to achieve your goal. Thats a concept GS will have issues with i guess.
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smitor
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 11:47:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
What if the 200 want and can bring more expensive ships, but can't because the cynojammer won't let em?
They can do that, systems arent always cyno jammed and there is maybe more to it then just attacking 1 system at a time.
200 or 300 battleships with logistics can quickly kill a cyno jammer if you do it in an odd timezone. The russians have shown that more then once. However the key is that Goons who are advocating changes loudly want to get changed stuff so it doesnt force them to get out of their way.
With the right tactics which go beyond "go to one system and press as many bs into the gate until it crashes" you are able to take systems of even a well entrenched enemy.
To blame lag however as an argument to either nerf titans or cynojammers however is silly. The titans have the same lag as anyone else has, so does a defending fleet which might simply get toasted aswell. So please lets not construct scenarios which are completely made up and false showing the coalition as the poor victims of imbalanced gamedesign.
As in my other post, zergtactics will only bring you that far and goons finally found a speedbump they cant just overwash with nothing in preparation apart from "be there in some ship lulz".
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smitor
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 12:07:00 -
[5]
Originally by: AIchemist
Originally by: Local Her0
Originally by: Post
The goon presense in this thread actually isn't as much as it should be for a goon nerf threadnaught. Obviously they don't want the nerf that bad or most of them don't think it should be nerfed as it will probably just mean BoB will steamroll them even faster without alot of their allies now.
Tbh BOB is steamrolling Goons since 5 months now straight, theres nothing left for Goons to do but threadnaught fo a game-nerf because thats realy all they can do at this point, but you figured that out your self yo boya
Steam rolling them right into 4-5 regions?Steam rolling 100's of towers they lost? Can I have just one hit of what your smoking?just one? Ok, maybe like a baby hit.
lol you got trolled by your own side there. I guess he forgot the /irony tags.
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smitor
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 12:30:00 -
[6]
Edited by: smitor on 11/03/2008 12:31:07
someone else suggested a subcapital ship. Thats something alongside the changes to jammers and jumpbridges i proposed i would love to see.
Some "subcapital" ship like the freighter which requires skills between bs and dread, cant use a jumpdrive, can siege but has only 1 gun / launcher and costs prolly half of what a dread costs. They would be the first wave of an attack. Due to their higher hp immune to alpha strike DD's, still be touchable by pos guns (below dread active tank), not remoterepairable due to siegemode (so a pricetag is applied to take down a manned tower) and weak ecm resists so a fleet must actually support them in combination with the loved agility of a whale every capship in eve features.
This would imo improve the situation by giving attackers the ability to field a medicore and more exspensive solution until they manage to take the jammer down while still giving the defender an upperhand if he is organized and able to repell the attackers combined forces.
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smitor
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: AIchemist
What I do respect is the post from bob acknowledging the problem.There is one,this is only one of the posts from bob with level headed thinking.There is problem and in some way needs to be fixed.
considering you smacked me 4 posts above as an elitist snob thats quiet a comeback.
As for the subcap ship, it was just an example. Actually one of the few beyond the general "its broken" "needs fixing" "cynojammers are getting changed" "ccp said so" posts in this thread.
No suggestion really strikes me as superior yet because it will leave either way someone on the sour foot since it will influence the outcome of this war directly if not handeled with care. Care ccp have really not shown in the past when "fixing" things.
However you are right in one point, if there is an issue im one of the first to actually think up an solution. Having said that you will find Dianas posts on this subject actually giving also options how a possible change could look like.
Ive yet to see a coalition / alt post doing the same.
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smitor
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:39:00 -
[8]
no it should not require "dreadnought 5" or some other hillarious skilling scheme and neither should it cost as much as a dread. Afterall we are talking about a SUBcaptialship.
Both factors would limit the accessability and reduce the chance someone actually fields them to the point where we would be in the same situation as we are now with stealthbombers and triage mods.
These newish ships would need to replace battleships on a borad scale for the specialized job of a jammer or pos takedown and in that context they would need to be available to all alliances and a broad base of pilots.
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