EVE Search - Raptor Post Mortem, or Why CCP Really Nerfed The Raptor

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Raptor Post Mortem, or Why CCP Really Nerfed The Raptor

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:35:00 - [1] So after much turmoil, I finally gave up on the Raptor as a cheap throw-away tackler that can do decent missile DPS from point range. I trained up Gallente Frigate V and am finding the Ares to be a far better 'pure tackler' than the Raptor could ever be because of it's extra low slot and better speed characteristics. I was about to write off the Raptor entirely as nothing more than a fast T2 shuttle until I decided to play around with some blaster fits on SiSi. And then I learned why CCP really nerfed the powergrid on the Raptor. A three turret Raptor with 30 base PG is a very powerful blaster ship. [Raptor, Gank Raptor] Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S x 3 Rocket Launcher II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Overdrive Injector System II x 2 Micro B88 Core Augmentation Compared to a Gank Neutron Taranis (2x ODs, RCU, 3x Neutron IIs /w Null), this Raptor tackles better, has similar speed and agility, has better weapon range (especially on the rockets) but inferior tracking (which is offset by the range), and does about 75% of the Taranis' DPS. However, this Raptor fit requires the Raptor's old base powergrid in order to fit; once this patch goes live it would require rigs and/or implants to fit and even then it would be very tight. So I've concluded that CCP wasn't worried about the Raptor competing with the Harpy as a frigate sniper; CCP didn't want the Raptor competing with the Taranis as a blaster 'ceptor. Don't get me wrong, the new Raptor is still an average 'ceptor at best; it is still outclassed as a missile ship by the Crow and Malediction, as a blaster ship by the Taranis, and as a pure tackler by the Ares and Stilleto. But it's ability to fit as both a long-range tackler and a decent blaster ship at the same time gives it some versatility that, in my opinion at least, is actually useful. Not 'split weapon system' type versatility, but actual versatility in function (i.e. same ship can be a long-range tackler and a DPS blaster ship with the a single fit). Thoughts? -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:03:00 - [2] Edited by: Omarvelous on 10/03/2008 15:04:43 Yeah, I've messed with blaster raptors (actually decent at ratting - very risky in pvp), and I agree about the need to drop the grid to avoid it superseding the ranis in the blaster dps output (see I like my ships balanced - not overpowered)! The thing about the raptor that kills me is using it as a long range tackler. Maxed out skills with 125mm. You lack the grid for the 125mms - AND you lack cap to run cap stable. Lows: Nanofiber II Overdrive II Micro Auxiliary Power Core Mids: 1MN MWD II Warp Disruptor II Cap recharger II Highs: 3x 125 mm Rails (Caldari Navy Tungsten to get effective damage at 30km). Rigs: 2x Auxiliary Thrusters or 2 polycarbons Spike is not ideal - worse cap problems than tungsten and horrible tracking. Cap lasts 1 min 49 seconds - wtf?! To stay cap stable you have to turn off all but 1 gun to orbit at 30km, and scram. So for 1 min 49 sec, you get ~ 42 dps - once you turn off all but 1 gun to stay cap stable, 14 dps. WEAK. Lets see if I switch the 125's for 75'mm to get the grid to remove the Micro aux power core for a capacitor power relay. Lows: Overdrive II Nanofiber II Capacitor Power relay II Mids: 1MN Microwarp II 24km Warp Disruptor II Cap recharger II Highs: 3x 75mm Rail II (spike/iron) Standard Launcher II Rigs: Auxiliary Thruster or polycarbon Max skills and iron goes to 22+3.8 = not effective at scram bonus range. Cap Stable with max cap skills. 45 dps. Spike gets you 24+3.8 = again barely effective at scram bonus range. cap Stable with max cap skills. 58 dps. The raptor is 'boosted' by getting another turret slot - yet it lacks the cap to effectively utilize it in a cap stable manner. Sure you can drop a speed mod for a tracking enhancer to get effective turret range at scram range - but then you are sacrificing the main benefit of an interceptor which is speed!!! You can't even fully load the low slots with speed mods because you need either a grid fitting mod, or a cap mod. You can't fit a tracking computer because of cap problems!!! What a frustrating ship! You get a useful turet - but lack the cap to run it effectively at its scram bonused range!!! You're almost forced to stick with missiles to save cap (may as well fly a crow). Sure you can use blaters - but then get rid of the scram bonus which I'm wasting and give me another bonus for close range combat. As a rare turret Caldari pilot - I love the extra turret for a split weapon's raptor - now please give me cap to fly it properly! *Edit - I now sympathize with Amar laz0r boats! __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:06:00 - [3] Originally by: Bronson Hughes Thoughts? the raptor is intended as a railgun ship to shoot enemies from range while being able to tackle from range aswell. its the tackle ceptor afterall and it gets the range bonus on the disruptors. if u want to blaster fit it downgrade to ions. most taranises use ions II and prefer a slight buffer tank instead of the top tier guns since ur dps can be as awsome as u want but ull die too fast to apply em in combat. i however wouldnt use the raptor as a closerange ship anyway. the raptors role is to hold the point and fend off those who want to get it away from the target. at range u can outmaneuver incoming interceptors and try to deal dps while they are approaching. in closerange any decent anti-tackler interceptor will tear you a new one. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:15:00 - [4] Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 10/03/2008 15:15:17 Originally by: Reto the raptor is intended as a railgun ship to shoot enemies from range while being able to tackle from range aswell. its the tackle ceptor afterall and it gets the range bonus on the disruptors. I agree with you about the Raptor's intended purpose, but as Omarvelous so kindly pointed out, you can't do that while maintaining any kind of speed or cap stability. Once this goes live, I'm going to try my last few Raptors that I have stored up (when they're 5mil a hull, you can keep a stockpile handy) as a long-range tackle/blaster 'ceptor. Keep the point on the target from range while doing zero DPS and then close to lay on the blaster/rocket fire if the situation is safe/stable enough. The fitting listed above was a pure gank setup; in reality I would likely use Ions or maybe even Electrons if I want to keep my speed up. My point was to compare it to a similarly-fit gank setup Taranis; the comparison holds for the most part as long as both ships are similarly fit so it should apply for Ion fits as well. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:27:00 - [5] The raptor grid nerf is one of the worst examples of "we can't make the ship work as intended because it has a too powerful upside if you use an unintended fit" This is the downside of having alot of freedom and sandbox style gameplay. At the same time, it would not be overpowered if they left the PG as is, its dps would still be lower than an Gank Taranis. The real problem is how useless the Raptor will be with the lower grid (even though its a small difference). Also, I really don't like how CCP seems to now be of the view that all pilots have to have AWU trained to 5 in order to have a viable setup on alot of ships, this being a perfect example. Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:22:00 - [6] So I thought about it some more, and I came up with a completely off-the-wall setup. Afterburner Raptor. Don't dismiss this as web/neut your dead - it's designed to go into dangerous territory. Lows: Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Overdrive II Micro Auxiliary Power Core Mids: 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Webifier Highs: 3x Light Ion blaster II E5 Nosferatu You perma run the afterburner to maintain highest possible transversal. Use null/void as the situation calls for it. You dive into your larger slower target. They web you - you're still perma running your afterburner and you go about ~160 m/s after your inertia carries you into blaster range - set orbit to 2km. Orbiting at 2-3km your blasters with void still hit without cap or tracking issues. Your transversal is still decent for avoiding medium/large guns. Your sig is microscopic because you don't have the MWD sig penalty - even guns that track you still miss due to sig issues - all missiles bar light precision do significantly reduced damage due to sig issue. They neut you - which depending on timing can mean your ship's AB cycle gets you into your NOS range, now you have enough juice to fire guns and run the afterburner. ~140-150 dps. Yep - that's about the best I can do with a practical Raptor setup post patch. Its cheap enough to warrant some testing. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:26:00 - [7] Maybe the raptor is pretty good with blasters, but CCP says they want to nerf it so people won't use it as a 150mm sniper. The problem is that lowering the grid will pretty much RUIN every other railsetup. I did a long Raptor thread in development right after the changes got announced but apparantly not even devs read that place of the forum. - I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Haradgrim This is the downside of having alot of freedom and sandbox style gameplay. At the same time, it would not be overpowered if they left the PG as is, its dps would still be lower than an Gank Taranis. Lower dps then gank taranis? That statement doesnt really say much when gank taranis can do up to 280dps... -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Haradgrim This is the downside of having alot of freedom and sandbox style gameplay. At the same time, it would not be overpowered if they left the PG as is, its dps would still be lower than an Gank Taranis. Lower dps then gank taranis? That statement doesnt really say much when gank taranis can do up to 280dps... I don't even have a problem with the Taranis having the most flat out damage since it sacrifices a lot (your quoted gank stat fit would give the ranis a pathetic top speed). Looking at the turret inty's: Amarr and Minmatar inty's have the speed advantage. Gallente has the hard hitting gank advantage. Caldari *SHOULD* have a range advantage - but when fit for it completely lack the cap to sustain it. All I ask is for more cap - go ahead and limit my grid, keep me relatively slow, keep me pathetically fragile - just give me the cap to sustain a 30km orbit with laughable dps... __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:19:00 - [10] There is some slight misunderstanding. The CCP-intended role for the Raptor is to suck. After the "boost" patch it will suck even harder. Therefore this is a boost. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Ogul There is some slight misunderstanding. The CCP-intended role for the Raptor is to suck. After the "boost" patch it will suck even harder. Therefore this is a boost. I lolled IRL when I read this. Sad but true. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:23:00 - [12] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Haradgrim This is the downside of having alot of freedom and sandbox style gameplay. At the same time, it would not be overpowered if they left the PG as is, its dps would still be lower than an Gank Taranis. Lower dps then gank taranis? That statement doesnt really say much when gank taranis can do up to 280dps... My point (you might want to try looking for one before commenting ) was that it obviously was not in any sort of danger of comprimising the Taranis' role as the premier gank inty. As such, the "gank raptor" setup is either not the reason or at least not an appropriate reason for the PG nerf..... Originally by: Ogul There is some slight misunderstanding. The CCP-intended role for the Raptor is to suck. After the "boost" patch it will suck even harder. Therefore this is a boost. THIS TBQFH! Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:51:00 - [13] CCP nerfed the raptor because they were tired of it merely tying for worst interceptor, and wanted to make it the clear winner for that title :)
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Ulstan CCP nerfed the raptor because they were tired of it merely tying for worst interceptor, and wanted to make it the clear winner for that title :) CCP read that it meant "Bird of Prey" and thought it meant that it was the Prey.... Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:09:00 - [15] One word, faith. I too cried like a schoolgirl when they where changing the ares. I was like 'waaaaah less deee-peee-eeessss waaaaah' ... Well sure, the ares now have less dps than before ... it's one of the best tacklers now tho.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Reto the raptor is intended as a railgun ship to shoot enemies from range while being able to tackle from range aswell. its the tackle ceptor afterall and it gets the range bonus on the disruptors. How do you maintain a tackling orbit of 40km diameter and shoot at other targets with a locking range of 31.25 km (max skills)? --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:53:00 - [17] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Reto the raptor is intended as a railgun ship to shoot enemies from range while being able to tackle from range aswell. its the tackle ceptor afterall and it gets the range bonus on the disruptors. How do you maintain a tackling orbit of 40km diameter and shoot at other targets with a locking range of 31.25 km (max skills)? first of all: who the heck told you that you are supposed to maintain a 40km orbit and fight from 40km range?! at ceptor 5 ur disruptor II will have a max. disruption range of 30km so u cant really go out of 30km if u want to fulfill your main task of tackling and suprisingly enuff your targeting range is above 30km. if u want to orbit at 40km go buy a faction disruptor and fit a sensor booster or amp to tackle at greater range. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.11 18:00:00 - [18] Originally by: Reto Originally by: Ogul How do you maintain a tackling orbit of 40km diameter and shoot at other targets with a locking range of 31.25 km (max skills)? first of all: who the heck told you that you are supposed to maintain a 40km orbit and fight from 40km range?! at ceptor 5 ur disruptor II will have a max. disruption range of 30km so u cant really go out of 30km if u want to fulfill your main task of tackling and suprisingly enuff your targeting range is above 30km. if u want to orbit at 40km go buy a faction disruptor and fit a sensor booster or amp to tackle at greater range. I suggest you look up the word "diameter" somewhere. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.11 19:51:00 - [19] bump Maybe... just maybe... CCP is looking at the cap problem on this ship. No point whatsoever to use 125mm rails, and tackle at 30km and not be able to sustain cap for more than a couple minutes. More turret points without the cap to sustain them is useless. It just becomes a warp disruptor orbiting at 30km at 'fast' speed. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:50:00 - [20] Originally by: Omarvelous bump Maybe... just maybe... CCP is looking at the cap problem on this ship. No point whatsoever to use 125mm rails, and tackle at 30km and not be able to sustain cap for more than a couple minutes. More turret points without the cap to sustain them is useless. It just becomes a warp disruptor orbiting at 30km at 'fast' speed. ... Ares is the exact same, even with 2 turrets. Anyone complaining ? No. Should it perma run ? No. You want perma run ? Fit cap recharge mod. Problem fixed, close the whine thread pls.
Stymie Jackson Caldari Mining Bytes Inc. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:10:00 - [21] The Ares has 30 powergrid, the raptor 26. Give me +4 PG and I'll stop whining myself. If not, them gimme more cap to use the guns. Either I need to fit a fitting module to use my weapons, or a cap module to help with cap. Using both really gimps the already gimpy Raptor.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Haradgrim This is the downside of having alot of freedom and sandbox style gameplay. At the same time, it would not be overpowered if they left the PG as is, its dps would still be lower than an Gank Taranis. Lower dps then gank taranis? That statement doesnt really say much when gank taranis can do up to 280dps... I don't even have a problem with the Taranis having the most flat out damage since it sacrifices a lot (your quoted gank stat fit would give the ranis a pathetic top speed). Looking at the turret inty's: Amarr and Minmatar inty's have the speed advantage. Gallente has the hard hitting gank advantage. Caldari *SHOULD* have a range advantage - but when fit for it completely lack the cap to sustain it. All I ask is for more cap - go ahead and limit my grid, keep me relatively slow, keep me pathetically fragile - just give me the cap to sustain a 30km orbit with laughable dps... The problem between the tackling and combat inties for caldari and gallente is this: Both gallente and minmatar combat inties have 3 mids = they can web = they tackle basically just as well as the tackling counterparts but do alot more dps. The problem is more that crow and taranis need to get a tackling nerf. Question is how to do that... If anything, its the crow that actually has too much cap. Raptor should have more cap then crow and crow should have less. That way raptor would be more popular for tackling. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Omarvelous bump Maybe... just maybe... CCP is looking at the cap problem on this ship. No point whatsoever to use 125mm rails, and tackle at 30km and not be able to sustain cap for more than a couple minutes. More turret points without the cap to sustain them is useless. It just becomes a warp disruptor orbiting at 30km at 'fast' speed. ... Ares is the exact same, even with 2 turrets. Anyone complaining ? No. Should it perma run ? No. You want perma run ? Fit cap recharge mod. Problem fixed, close the whine thread pls. Ares has 4 lows - so you can fit the same three speed mods as a raptor - but you have room for a capacitor power relay to maintain cap stability at the same speed. *Your flame needs more work - NEXT.* __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Sinnbad Mayhem	Posted - 2008.03.12 01:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Both gallente and minmatar combat inties have 3 mids... Minmatar (Stileto) has 4 mids, but I think you meant to say Caldari S&M
Cpt Branko	Posted - 2008.03.13 04:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Sinnbad Mayhem Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Both gallente and minmatar combat inties have 3 mids... Minmatar (Stileto) has 4 mids, but I think you meant to say Caldari Stilleto is the tacking inty, it has 4 mids. Claw is the Minmatar combat inty, it has 2 mids. And it has interesting locking range, lol ;) Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Reto	Posted - 2008.03.14 02:50:00 - [26] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Reto Originally by: Ogul How do you maintain a tackling orbit of 40km diameter and shoot at other targets with a locking range of 31.25 km (max skills)? first of all: who the heck told you that you are supposed to maintain a 40km orbit and fight from 40km range?! at ceptor 5 ur disruptor II will have a max. disruption range of 30km so u cant really go out of 30km if u want to fulfill your main task of tackling and suprisingly enuff your targeting range is above 30km. if u want to orbit at 40km go buy a faction disruptor and fit a sensor booster or amp to tackle at greater range. I suggest you look up the word "diameter" somewhere. ah got ya. so you basically want to run around one guy and tackle him while shooting at another one at the other end of the battlefield. well youll realize that there are limits for this using turret ships even if you could reach a targeting range of 50km with a single sensor booster. imo the only ceptor which can do this reliably is the crow since it hasnt the tracking issue and can shoot its missles up to 50km due to the missle velocity bonus. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".

Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.