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Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:18:00 - [1] Firstly, let me confirm that FIN is still secured in the financial sense of the word, and no assets have been lost or stolen. Secondly, there have been no thefts or losses in FIN-U or any capital assets, intermediate products or Isk. Over the last two months for the first time in their almost 18 month history, dividends for FIN and FIN-U have been late. FIN's dividends were paid out for this month last week, while I have not yet paid out for FIN-U as quite simply the full amount of Isk is not available to do so. I will pay this out as soon as I possibly can, and apologise for the delay. The rest of this post will be dealing with the gist of the medium to long term challenges that both corporations face. As most people are aware, due to changes that CCP have been making to the industrial side of Eve over the last year, and tweaks in the last few patches in particular, the T2 market is currently in a free fall. I am going to try not to address the merits of the changes in here but rather the consequences. At it's peak FIN and FIN-U represented over 400 Billion Isk in public investment in Eve spread literally thousands of investors. FIN was and always has been a pure T2 production corporation while FIN-U was involved in many spheres, from T2 production to invention and loans. As invention profit dropped over time and my personal time to micromanage became limited, I shifted initially a large chunk, and then all of the Isk invested into FIN-U into buying up what were at the time very profitable BPOs for bargain prices (as examples many were bought on 4-5 month ROIs). With the knowledge available at the time I still feel this was a prudent move, and would have paid off well had CCP not implemented some of their most recent changes. Over my time in Eve I built up a significant personal asset base of approximately 600 Billion Isk which I have thus far used to try help FIN and FIN-U ride what I hoped would be a short term downturn before CCP realized that their changes would destroy all high end goals within the industrial side of the game. At the time I even managed to speak to Oveur on IRC where he assured me that CCP would monitor the situation and make changes to correct it if things got "out of control". That said, they appear (in my humble opinion), for the time being at least, to be out of control and the time has come to make a decision on the futures of both FIN and FIN-U. For the record I have not made a single personal Isk from either corporation and have in fact put a huge amount of my personal assets into both of them, not to mention time. I am working on a proposal at the moment as to the future direction and possible solutions for both corporations but I will not post that here until I have received counsel from various trusted friends ingame, or given the investors who have put their trust in me an opportunity to suggest solutions, changes and/or resolutions. I would ask that posts give constructive criticism and solutions to the current situation. If anyone feels the need to flame me, feel free to open a new thread and do it there. I would like to keep this as coherent as possible as a serious discussion rather than a CAOD clone forum. In closing I would like to in particular thank Treelox and Sara Dawn for their help with both corporations over the last year, where they have picked up most of the slack left by the reduction in my personal time due to other higher priority commitments. Sincerely, Eefrit
Khatred ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:32:00 - [2] That means you gonna sell me some prints? \o/
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:38:00 - [3] I'm not really sure what you are asking. It sounds like you're wanting advice on somewhere else to make similar money with minimal time commitment from yourself now that the T2 gold rush has come to an end. For 400 billion, I have absolutley no idea. I've never even smelt that much money... Maybe it's time to shut up shop? Or at least downsize and do somthing different? I don't really know what to suggest cos I'm not entirely sure what you're asking and the detail of your situation. (Oh, for the record, I'm not an investor and have never been in production, either T1 or T2 so feel free to ignore me ) -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Arritha	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:53:00 - [4] I am a small investor in FIN (250mil worth). FIN has been very good to me over the past year and half. But I'm not entirely sure what you are asking. So let me bullet point my key questions: 1) Are you proposing a liquidation? 2) If so, what ballpark estimate do you have for payout? 75%? 100% 150%? I think I can safely say for all the long term investors that we will support whatever decision you ultimately make and appreciate asking us for input. Arritha
Atherin Gaius Caldari Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:00:00 - [5] I'm an investor and not having been involved in the day to day operations i find it hard to give you good suggestions based on what is happening in the corp. I would be more interested to see what ideas you had and then discuss them. Maybe instead of doing it here,if you don't want everyone commenting, you could set up a mailing list that we could discuss them in?
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:04:00 - [6] Can I have your stuff? In all seriousness I may be able/willing to buy up some of your T2 BPO's if that is something you are looking into. Otherwise it's hard to tell what you're looking for, discussion/answer wise. So I'll just assume you want to sell a lot of T2 BPO's to me
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:33:00 - [7] I'm sorry if I did not make it clear in my post. Essentially both corps have a rather large amount of T2 BPOs as their income producing base. That income is decreasing and with that decrease in income, the value of the asset base (for now at least). Taking that situations into account, I am opening the floor up to suggestions as to how to proceed under various situations. I am honestly not sure exactly what the BPO values of each corp would be but my rough guess would be 75% for FIN and maybe 80% for FIN-U. They both still make fairly decent money, but not enough to cover the given minimums of 4% and 7% respectively for FIN and FIN-U. Sincerely, Eefrit
Ghost Emperor Amarr EvE Mutual Fund Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:59:00 - [8] First off, thanks for the hard work, inspiration and thought that have gone into FIN/FIN-U to date, FIN has been very good to EMFI over time and has paid out a huge amounts of isk. However, it is getting more difficult to run T2 corps 4 sure. We're Not sure what to suggest atm, as large investors in both of your corps it would be good to see a plan for survival/merger, but if it is proving to much like work then we are open to other ideas... All the best from EMFI P.S. I also have people interested in T2 BPOs ;) EvE Galactic Stock Exchange and Real-time Eve Stock Exchange EMFI blog at: http://emfi.blogspot.com/
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:24:00 - [9] Originally by: Eefrit They both still make fairly decent money, but not enough to cover the given minimums of 4% and 7% respectively for FIN and FIN-U. Ouch... How is that possible? Did you buy that many T2 BPO's before the massive price crash 9-12 months ago? Lately the price of T2 BPO's has kinda leveled off it seems to me... how are you valuing things? I would think that any T2 BPO you are producing from should be earning at least 4-5% per month from that production or it isn't worth your time/effort. I personally have 5 diff T2 BPO's and all of them earn well over 7%/month... and they are not even remotely rare BPO's or highly sought after ones. They are just basic, generic BPOs. Is it just because you had very popular BPO's that now are nearly worthless because of increased invention and increased T2 component prices? Or is it just regular old BPO's that you bought prior to the crash and thus are now worth 1/2 to 1/10th what they once were? It just seems like 4% is a terribly low number and should easily be able to be made. On a totally different topic, have you heard from Ionia lately? You two seemed to know each other quite well as Ionia often spoke on your behalf and even conducted auctions on your behalf, so do you know anything that we all should know?
Imperius Blackheart Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:30:00 - [10] Eefrit, mate you probably realised by now but i've got a lot of love for you because of what you have done with the "FIN" brand. I've had your bonds through my fingers a few times, have made quite a profit by now and still have my orignial stake, something that introduced me to the eve stocks and bonds market and gave it major trust imo. I've some ideas of what i'd prefer to see happen with FIN and FIN-U but before I go into them, a question for you if you don't mind? Do you find running/managing and keeping FIN/FIN-U going and profitable fun still? Is it what you hoped it would be? I cannot really give my opinion on anything without knowing the answer to those. [/url] Proud member of the Caldari Death Squad
Haka Aragon Caldari F.M.J. operations	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:38:00 - [11] I currently own 5000 shares with you and I agree that whatever you decide to do with the corporations in the end is your decision. I have no problems in trusting you with my money again in the future should you start another venture. _
Mikron Alexarr New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:43:00 - [12] I am an extremely small time investor. (I won't bother to say how many shares I own) If the payments are coming late, why not adjust the period and percentage of return? Given the recent turn of the market, I think many people would be understanding in your choice to change those things. You seem to have a very solid background in the eve markets, so my suggestion may or may not be viable. I will ask the same questions as the other posters here and ask if it's still fun for you. Also, what about liquidating some assets and funding a different business venture with the released capital? You could keep the two corporations earning, offer some stock buy back, reduce your liabilities, and invest in other avenues of revenues :). I wish I could offer a more constructive solution that that, but your market sense on what is profitable and what is not seems, as I said, to be quite solid. I've trusted you with my measly investment so far, and you've yet to let me down. Good luck on the final decision! -Mikron ____________________________________________________________________] "Did you just smacktalk my grandma?"
Feng Schui Minmatar Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:20:00 - [13] BPC's. People will pay some good isk for good, clean BPO copies. Project:Gank Pilgrim Guide
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:38:00 - [14] I don't think I could tell you anything you don't already know. What I can tell you what I would consider if I was in the saturation you're in. Two corporations are not meeting the minimal requirements you put forth in the prospectus, but can one if the other one wasn't around? In the real world they call it Synergy, the word investors love to hear, and workers dread. It might be time to merge FIN-U and FIN together in order to meet the needs of one rather then struggling to achieve them both. If my memory servers me correctly you are unable to create any more FIN shares, so that leaves FIN-U shares. Can FIN-U generate 1/100th of FIN's public shares as additional shares? Issue a final FIN dividend, announce no more dividends, have a share exchange 100 FIN shares gets you 1 FIN-U share, move all the FIN assets over to FIN-U. Please note this idea is around zero knowledge of the back end workings of either corporation, I do not know if that is even possible. But it's clear if something doesn't happen to make one of them stronger, they are both heading for the failure bin. Amarr for Life
Mikron Alexarr New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Feng Schui BPC's. People will pay some good isk for good, clean BPO copies. Very good point. A set of well researched BPO copies would fetch a nice price and demand would be quite high. Although I've never had a t2 BPO and have no idea how long copying takes, this would seem like a good way to go for generating revenue on prints that might be sitting idle if there are any at all. My only concern is the time that must be invested just to make the copy instead of the actual product. There will more than likely be a significant profit differential. However, this would be one route to take to keep all assets operating at maximum efficiency. ____________________________________________________________________] "Did you just smacktalk my grandma?"
Margret Putnam	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:59:00 - [16] If no one is buying the items themselves, who would buy the BPC?
Mikron Alexarr New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.03.11 02:13:00 - [17] Edited by: Mikron Alexarr on 11/03/2008 02:13:45 Originally by: Margret Putnam If no one is buying the items themselves, who would buy the BPC? Producers that have access to the minerals, but don't have access to the avenues of invention would be interested. Additionally, this is not just about the volume of materials moving, it's the price of those items. If the cost of production of the copy of the BPO is less than the price of production for inventing the BPC, this copying process could show potential as a source of income. If the cost doesn't work, it would still be a way of keeping the BPO busy even while it's not in production. This is also assuming that the BPOs experience some sort of idle time. ____________________________________________________________________] "Did you just smacktalk my grandma?"
Feng Schui Minmatar Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.03.11 02:40:00 - [18] Edited by: Feng Schui on 11/03/2008 02:41:14 Originally by: Margret Putnam If no one is buying the items themselves, who would buy the BPC? Its not that people are not buying the items, its the fact that there is so much competition now, that prices are plummeting while the cost to make the items is rising. The potential profit is just not there anymore. Lets take the hypothetical T2 item: An inventor will probably have to spend at least 5 million just to make a successful copy, not too mention the negative ME and PE on those copies. Now, lets also say, that it takes 1 million isk to build the item, and it sells at 1.2 million isk (Invention costs), and 750k isk to build from a BPO. BPO Profit: 63% Profit, or 450,000 ISK per item. BPC (Invention) Profit: 0% profit (in fact, they actually end up 3 million isk in the hole... but hey, decryptors and etc.. are free since you get them yourself, right? ) Ok.. so inventing item A produces 63% profit for a BPO holder, but 0% profit for an inventor, taking into account market costs + chance. Now, lets take a look at the profit percentages of BPO Copying. As I said, lets say it costs 5 million ISK to make 1 BPC, 15 runs, for an inventor. Since copying is relatively cheap if you have the skills + POS, lets say it costs 500k ISK to make a max run copy of a BPO. You can then sell this BPC for, oh, lets say, 5 million ISK. This is the cost that the inventor would have done, but he would have gotten a negative ME and negative PE bpc. The inventor's cost of getting the BPC remains the same. His cost of production is lowered, his profits go up. How about the BPO holder? Remember, he was making 63% profit on manufacturing. With copying, he has made 1000% profit. Project:Gank Pilgrim Guide
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.03.11 03:19:00 - [19] If the market is in really bad shape and you are not able to meet your IPO dividend goals, I would consider at least a partial liquidation. Sell off the less profitable assets or corporation, and return the excess capital to shareholders via large dividends. Shareholders should be able to make better than 4 or 7% on their money. This also makes sense if you do not have the time to manage such a large corporation/s. You want to be left with: 1. A corporation of a size you have the time and are happy working with 2. A NAV that provides a good return to shareholders
Khatred ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs	Posted - 2008.03.11 03:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Feng Schui stuff So much space wasted. Do you even know how t2 bpos work?
DarkStar251	Posted - 2008.03.11 04:22:00 - [21] As a relatively small time FIN investor, I'm pretty much willing to go along with whatever is decided. I wouldn't ask Eefrit to put more of his time in for no reward, so I'm leaning toward a liquidation myself.... As a complete aside, don't suppose you have info on the whereabouts of Ionia? :P
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2008.03.11 09:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Imperius Blackheart Do you find running/managing and keeping FIN/FIN-U going and profitable fun still? Is it what you hoped it would be? Hi Imperius, and thanks for always being a positive support behind the scenes over the years. To answer your question, I would like to keep both running, and quite honestly it would not take a huge change to keep them both viable, as they are missing target by a small margin each. If CCP tweak invention back a little or the irrational selling by inventors reduces, then they will meet target again. I have posted this, as I would rather be honest with people as to the current situation than try fix it or make changes with investors in the dark. Originally by: Feng Schui BPC's. People will pay some good isk for good, clean BPO copies. We have been doing that on some of the BPOs that we have duplicates of or are selling at below cost. You are correct that it does make Isk, but it is not a real long term solution here for all the BPOs. Originally by: Shadarle How is that possible? Within the context of your post, I respectfully point out that you are comparing current to historical which is not really plausible with corporations that took in most of their investment well over a year ago. I have no intention of discussing historical decisions with hindsight as I still believe with the information available at the time, they were the correct decisions to make. Originally by: SencneS Issue a final FIN dividend, announce no more dividends, have a share exchange 100 FIN shares gets you 1 FIN-U share, move all the FIN assets over to FIN-U. SencneS, I would also like to thank you, like Imperius for your support. There are a few variations along this line that I have been considering, but a direct exchange like that would exacerbate the situation rather than correct it. The general idea of consolidation would be feasible but under FIN and not FIN-U, but to do that there would need to be a vote among current FIN investors to amend the Investors Agreement. I will go into more details on this option later this week when I present various options after all investors have had a chance to give their input. Originally by: DarkStar251 As a complete aside, don't suppose you have info on the whereabouts of Ionia? :P I will repost what I said in another thread regarding this question: I am not sure what has happened with Ionia as I have not spoken to him on IM (or in fact seen him on any IM) for many months now. I do know that he was having some personal problems of a medical nature for the last two months that I spoke to him, but more than that I will not say. It is possible that the "hit by a bus" scenario is in place with FRPB, but I can not be sure until I manage to get hold of Ionia. Whatever has happened, I hope to see Ionia back ingame one day regardless of how FRBP turns out Sincerely, Eefrit
azurisk Caldari Next-Gen Next-Gen Group	Posted - 2008.03.11 10:53:00 - [23] Well I have been happy all this time while you ran the FIN businesses. I might have some ideas or could be able to help out. If i catch you online i'll open a convo. If i catch you online :) best regards, azurisk
CmdDesaster Marquie-X Corp Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Eefrit I would ask that posts give constructive criticism and solutions to the current situation. If anyone feels the need to flame me, feel free to open a new thread and do it there. I would like to keep this as coherent as possible as a serious discussion rather than a CAOD clone forum. Sell the least profitable BPOs and invest the money in the most profitable inventions. If you want to continue this enterprise (I truely hope so): - no new T2-BPOs, constantly dropping DC/decryptor-costs, perma-boosts by CCP... invention is the future, it's as simple as that. - you'll have to make this "byebye isk printer"-cut anyway, so why not now? - there are already decent profits in inventions As long as you still have fun and they whole enterprise is aligned forward, I see no problem with lower dividends. Until CCP has finished fooling round with the market, I don't even see reason for excuses. /me throws in a potion of trust
Imperius Blackheart Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:54:00 - [25] Thanks for the answer Eefrit, someone already asked what I would like to suggest in effect. Essentially if you are still enjoying it and want to keep the business going thats awesome, and i'm really happy to hear it. Would it be viable/benifical to consolidate the funds, in effect do away with FIN and FIN-U and make "FIN-NEW", the bonds could be traded in for the new bonds, and would hopefully allow a re-issue of some new bonds to the market. Perhaps managing one fund with more flexability might be easier, allow you more time to ensure that targets are met and a mid point between the funds return might be able to be found. These days i'm a lot richer than I was when I originally brought into FIN and FIN-U and would buy into a new bond, I assume this would be the same for many people allowing more liquidity to get the ball rolling again. I'll probably be corrected if this is wrong, but I think that FIN is the longest running bond offering now by far which has already returned way above the original 100% and that has built up a lot of goodwill towards you and EFS for such a move IMO. Of course if logisitically this causes more headaches than it solves then it might be time to redefine the bonds to a different time scale for payouts and or slightly lower returns. [/url] Proud member of the Caldari Death Squad
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:53:00 - [26] Have to be careful not to hang on to long for the sake of it. Better to take some money out, and make a better return on a smaller set of assets. Release some equity back to the shareholders.
DarkStar251	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:01:00 - [27] How about a removal of the 4% and 7% minimums, meaning each stock pays out what it makes, with an optional buyback by eefrit at say, 75% of issue price for those that want out? 75% should mean eefrit is not losing money on it, as he can liquidise assets and get that back.
gnomer Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:20:00 - [28] Originally by: DarkStar251 How about a removal of the 4% and 7% minimums, meaning each stock pays out what it makes, with an optional buyback by eefrit at say, 75% of issue price for those that want out? 75% should mean eefrit is not losing money on it, as he can liquidise assets and get that back. If assets aren't making money sell them. Don't set a buyback at 75%. If you do that you wipe 25% of the share value. Just sell assets and do an extraordinary dividend. Sorry to be brutal if the returns are no longer there, return the money to the shareholders.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.03.11 18:05:00 - [29] Originally by: Eefrit Originally by: Shadarle How is that possible? Within the context of your post, I respectfully point out that you are comparing current to historical which is not really plausible with corporations that took in most of their investment well over a year ago. I have no intention of discussing historical decisions with hindsight as I still believe with the information available at the time, they were the correct decisions to make. Respectfully, I did ask if the reason for low profit was due to buying the BPO's before the big price drops. It sounds like the answer to that was Yes. If this is the case then it sounds like the problem is that you never revalued anything as prices dropped. In theory you should have been counting the reduced prices of the BPO's as losses each month, so as to still correctly value everything. Basically the NAV should have been dropping as BPO value dropped. If not it would lead to a situation where the profit for each BPO was extremely tiny based on valuation but normal based on real value. I know you don't want to cause shareholders to lose money on their investment, but it sounds like your BPO's aren't worth what they were... so they already have really... you just havn't accounted for it from what it sounds like. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is what I'm getting from what you've posted. Unless you're saying that if you sold every BPO and all materials you'd be able to reimburse all of the money to all investors. If not then it's time to revalue everything, inform investors of the loss, then decide on a path forward. You could forgo divs till the value is made up, just work from that lower value, cut divs a bit and work the value up slower, etc.
Emmeleth	Posted - 2008.03.11 18:38:00 - [30] Well for my 2 cents Feng Schui got me interested in Fin and Fin-U and i have a few billion invested and have been very happy and i trust your buisiness ventures, no flamers please but maybe if you take Fin-U down a percentage point on return to 6% maybe you will meet that goal with a promise to raise it when and if CCP makes changes,just a thought!

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