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Msobe
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Posted - 2008.03.17 13:29:00 -
[61]
OK, specific things you do address.
If you think it helps a lot to cut through an untanked shield buffer faster, go fit lasers. You'll save about 2 seconds on the shields, and take 30 seconds longer on the armor. Amazingly useful. You'd have a great point here if shield tanking was used as much as armor tanking for pvp. As it is, its not even close.
Amarr as armor tank kings . . . well, tanking is 50% of CCP's vision of amarr. Not that gallente can complain their tanks are poor. But dropping em resit didn't hurt amarr tanking any less than it did gallente, despite what gallente whiners are cranking out. Please be specific about how the boost patch was ridiculous . . . TP boost helps people with mid slots (not 90% of amarr ships), EM resist drop helps anyone who can deal EM damage (every single race), and the core of the Amarr boost boosted 3 ships. All of which needed it, and none of which have become overpowered (in the absence of unrelated bugs). Please be specific too when calling me an amarr whiner. As it turns out, my feeling is that CCP is 100% right about the problems, and 80% right about how they are fixing them. I am just as much of an amarr whiner as CCP is . . . I feel the ships (some of them) lack "ooomph," that lasers were a bit lacking in their sizzle factor (for the cap use, they need more benefit than just less cargo use for ammo), and that there are some specific ships/lasers that have problems fitting guns they ought to be able to, while having problems firing those lasers due to cap considerations. You haven't seen me agree with any silly ideas like letting lasers deal other damage types, upping laser damage output, or boosting ships like sac, abaddon, geddon, absolution, maller, punisher . . . On the whole, I feel like there was a combination of minor issues, that taken together, resulted in a race that was limited on the fun factor. Fixing those minor issues, and making some little tweaks to those ships that needed it, will make the race fun again.
Mercs and pirates, as far as I've seen, have a habit of using those ships that are cheap and effective in coordinated groups. They also pick their targets to what they know their gang can handle. The fact they pick a ship doesn't mean its best - it means its cheap enough to not mind losing it, and good enough to get the job done. As a rule, unpopular ships are cheap.
Show me that lasers were as effective on armor as hybrids, and CCP will have to reconsider their decision. The problem was that they weren't. There is a reason people call gal the gank race, and amarr the tank race. However, this change is aimed at making lasers work on armor enough to put the fear of God and Emperor back in the rest of interstellar society. ;-)
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Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.16 20:23:00 -
[62]
First, my apologies for the tardiness of this reply. There was a death in my family which put me off extended arguments in the forums.
Msobe's stance is that lasers were "made to hit shields" and that "shield tanking don't get along well with PvP" and therefore "lasers needed better performance on armor for PvP". I disagree. Lasers were made to do two damage types, just the same as every other weapon in EVE. Primarily they do EM damage and to a slightly lesser degree they do thermal damage. While this makes them deadly against the zero resist shields of an armor tanking opponent, it in no way means that's the only thing they are good for. They were and continue to be a viable weapon in PvP against armor tanking ships.......only now they've been given an imbalanced advantage.
Why? Part of the reason is statistics. Let's compare Gallente and Amarr. There are fewer Amarr ships flown than Gallente. Gallente use hybrids, Amarr use lasers. Hybrids do Kinetic/Thermal damage, Amarr do EM/Thermal damage. No tank has equal resists in every damage type. Since a pilot is more likely to encounter a Gallente then an Amarr ship, the armor tank reflects the damage resist the pilot is most likely to encounter, Kinetic/Thermal. You'll see this in a fully tanked ship and it is true whether the pilot is Amarr or Gallente. Until Amarr ships are in equal numbers to Gallente, you will not see tanking which sacrifices Kinetic resist to gain EM resist unless the pilot knows they're going to be facing an Amarr ship and only an Amarr ship.
In an earlier post Msobe made much of the fact that his ship had 70% EM and 61% Thermal armor resists when using two EANM's (energized adaptive nano membrane) and a DCS (damage control system). Since these were significantly higher resists than the other damage types, he suggests this is evidence of the need for an EM nerf. This is absurd and he should be embarrassed. He intentionally ignores the end result when the tank he started is completed. The end tank leaves EM one of the two lowest resists and that was before the EM resist nerf. Now, it is THE lowest. So now you have a ship with EM as its lowest armor resist and zero EM resist in its shields. Yeah.......that sounds balanced to all other pilots not using lasers. 
Msobe says, "the key difference between lasers and projectile, drones and missiles is that you can never change damage type". While true, his statement is misleading. Lets look at drones and missiles. Missiles can be chosen to do any of the four damage types and do them with equal effect. The problem is missiles are not considered a viable PvP weapon. Guns and, to a lesser degree, drones rule in PvP. Part of the reason missiles are not popular for PvP is the ships that are designed to carry them. Caldari ships. These ships are designed to carry missiles, yes, but are also designed to shield tank. As Msobe himself states, shield tanking is not a good PvP tactic.
Drones.......yeah drones. The drone using kings of EVE are the Gallente, true. However, Amarr also have drone boats and most of their ships use drones It is also true that you can get drones to do damage in each of the four damage types. However, Msobe conveniently ignores three important details. One; EM drones do significantly less damage than Thermal drones. Compare a Praetor II (EM damage,damage modifier 1.38) with an Ogre II (Thermal damage, damage modifier 1.92) Two; training needed. Each of the four damage type drones requires a racial specialization training to use and to optimize the damage type. That's a rank 5 skill and would take a month or more to fully train. Three; people tend to stick with their racial damage type. There's so much to train in EVE that most people stick with their races drones and put training for other racial drones on the back burner. So if you're facing a Gallente pilot, you're far more likely to face thermal damage drones than EM damage drones
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Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.16 20:30:00 -
[63]
Summary: Lasers pump out the same damage as hybrids. Lasers track better and therefore hit more often than hybrids of comparable size. EM resists on a fully tanked ship more often than not left and still leave EM resist as one of the lowest and now the lowest.
The reason you saw and see so many pirates and mercs using Amarr ships is not because the ships are cheap, but because they work. Now they work even better.
It's been said that in EVE you adapt or leave. The only adaption I can see to this EM resist nerf is to start training Amarr ships and lasers. There go years of skill training? With years more to train the Amarr skills?
Regards,
Windjammer
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Dearest Wish
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.16 20:34:00 -
[64]
 Originally by: Kusha'an
Wrong. If you boost Amarr, but I don't fight Amarr, then it's not a nerf to me. But if you nerf my EM damage, then EVERY SHIP that hits me with EM damage hits me harder. That's a nerf. Stop treating intelligent people like we're stupid. You're just a sucker, falling for the propaganda fed to you by CCP. Don't feed it to us; we're not falling for it.
PROPAGANDA. Have you lost your mind son. DONT TREAD ON ME CCP, I WILL RIOT IN THE STREETS.
CCP DID 9/11
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Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.16 20:46:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Windjammer
Blob of text I didn't read.
as amusing as this thread was 2 months ago. Necroing is bad, m'kay?
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I should really get a sig. |
Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.16 21:02:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Zaerlorth Maelkor
as amusing as this thread was 2 months ago. Necroing is bad, m'kay?
It is recent enough that it is not necroing. M'kay?
It's amusing to have you comment on something you haven't read and therefore can't possibly understand and at the same time you bump the thread. What could you possibly have been thinking?
Windjammer
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Staggerr
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Posted - 2008.05.16 21:14:00 -
[67]
So i was expecting a fairly new thread by some idiot who only just noticed the nerf and got 3 pages of flaming.
All i got was a necro wall of text.
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
modro
CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2008.05.16 21:31:00 -
[68]
OMG i just noticed they have nerfed the armageddon they have some kind of stacking penalty on my heat sinks i cant insta pwn other BS:es anymore.
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Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.16 21:37:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kano Sekor
OMG i just noticed they have nerfed the armageddon they have some kind of stacking penalty on my heat sinks i cant insta pwn other BS:es anymore.
It has begun... I have created a monster! MUAHAHA 
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I should really get a sig. |
Frits McDonal
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Posted - 2008.05.16 21:39:00 -
[70]
As a quick note to Msobe's last post I would like to point out that lasers take more cap not only because of less cargo usage, but also for higher range. Gallente vs Amarr it wouldn't be surprising at all if the Amarr would never have to repair its armor since at lasers optimal range hybrids would hit quite rarely.
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Uncle Smokey
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Posted - 2008.05.16 21:47:00 -
[71]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Ahahahaha... oh that was good..
qft
signed & stamped
.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
\o/ EVERYBODY SAY HELL YEAH! \o/ |
Angelonico
Series of Tubes
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Posted - 2008.05.16 22:02:00 -
[72]
This is a pretty good troll thread.
8/10
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Ivan Kinsikor
Amarr
Void Engineers
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Posted - 2008.05.16 22:26:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Ivan Kinsikor on 16/05/2008 22:26:39
New topic: Why is Amp so tastey?
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*****es don't know 'bout my nano'd Titan
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