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Sephra Star The Galactic Collective	Posted - 2008.03.18 16:14:00 - [121] Originally by: Kur'Dekaija hmm why are ppl so sensitive about whale hunting? its just like any other form of hunting.. you find it, you kill it, it suffers, then you eat it. Same could be said about farming animals, you farm it, kill it, it suffers then you it eat. And dont start talking about animals not suffering as much when slaughtered as whales being hunted. Ive worked at a slaughter factory/house what ever you call it and lets say the animal starts suffering the minute it enters the factory, it smells the blood, starts being afraid then panicking, then screaming and all ends with long gruesome electric shot through the head.. its way brutal than just shooting the animal. We even have government allowed equipment that is used to "ease the process" its just a big ass metal machine designed to hold the animal to get a clear electric shot at its head.. it basically gives the resisting animal a feeling of being crushed wright before it gets electrocuted. so why whine so much about whaling? Your absolutely right about the cruelty of slaughter houses. I have read the whistle blower employee affadavits from from former Tyson employees. I NEVER by their products, or eat at KFC because of that.
Suze'Rain Under the Wings of Fury Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.03.18 21:52:00 - [122] Originally by: Sephra Star I NEVER by their products, or eat at KFC because of that. I really shouldn't eat KFC... but that batter is the crystal meth of fast food drugs. it's evil, and you just... want... more...
Magnus Nordir Asimov Industries Zeroth Continuum	Posted - 2008.03.18 22:02:00 - [123] Edited by: Magnus Nordir on 18/03/2008 22:02:56 Originally by: Sephra Star I NEVER by their products by their products by ~~FIAL~~ FAIL and, as we already know, all americans are ***** **** ** gun-nuts (every last one of them), so you're lying too. *************************** Everything is possible for him who believes. Insprinc haptbandun - Inuar vigandun
Taihira Kith Somtaaw	Posted - 2008.03.18 22:55:00 - [124] Originally by: Magnus Nordir Edited by: Magnus Nordir on 18/03/2008 22:02:56 Originally by: Sephra Star I NEVER by their products by their products by ~~FIAL~~ FAIL and, as we already know, all americans are ***** **** **** gun-nuts (every last one of them), so you're lying too. and that little thread there shows that you're just another trolling b/tard whose entire post history is worthless. go back to "fapping over goar" or worse
Magnus Nordir Asimov Industries Zeroth Continuum	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:34:00 - [125] Originally by: Taihira and that little thread there shows that you're just another trolling b/tard whose entire post history is worthless. go back to "fapping over goar" or worse o **, it's captain obvious! duck and *** cover! *************************** Everything is possible for him who believes. Insprinc haptbandun - Inuar vigandun
Poppy Star Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:11:00 - [126] i thinks it time our little friend magnus was hit with the banstick for a while. Im tired of seeing people like him f'ing and blinding on these forums. Not to mention the fact that he is either a troll (highly likely) or a very mentally unwell individual (also highly likely) it is also higly likely that he is both. Arthur C Clarke - Innovator, Legend, Idol. "It's full of stars"
DrBiologist W.A.S.P The Nexus Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:20:00 - [127] Quote: That just screams of ***** FAIL. Animals should be burned alive, so they're killed and roasted in one step. Just pour some *** oil on it and LET THE MOTHER** BURN! .......... wow, how old are you? 7? If you were my son i would wup ur ass everyday. Your most likey some **** nerd who sits on the forums all day just waiting for a chance to create hatred and anger. Just because u get your ass kicked in school and have no friends doesnt mean you can take your anger out on us. Either grow up or leave the forums cuz im sure everyone else feels the same. _____________ USA! USA! USA!
Keorythe Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:32:00 - [128] Edited by: Keorythe on 19/03/2008 02:32:13 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I have been to a slaughterhouse and the animals are not "bled" while they are alive. They are not bled by dragging them behind a truck. They are not butchered while still alive and thrashing about. The animal is dispatched with a pneumatic hammer to the head and a squirt of air scrambles the brains...it's dead instantly. After that it gets hoisted up and bled out on its way to further butchering. BIG difference from what you see in that video. The method of bleeding an animal varies from location to location. In some places they have actual gear that will suck the blood out of a carcass after it has been killed. However, that kind of equipment is a luxury and only a recent innovation. In many countries they still do it "old school" where the animal has a vein severed and is bled to death before being butchered. As usual many people lack the ability to see customs differing from their own when it comes to food animals and handling. But for the sake of arguement try and use some basic medical sense. Even with their primitive nervous systems an animal is only going to be alive for a few seconds with that kind of blood loss. The brain dies and reacts in many different ways as it degrades. This can be total passivity to massive random neuron firings. The same thing occurs in humans and muscle spasms are not uncommon even after total exsanguation (bleed out). Since kosher food preparation rituals pre-date the existance of the US and even the UK, no amount of activity legislative-wise can really touch this as its a religous issue. About the only thing possible would be to try and start a movement within the religion itself and have it re-written. However, I find that to be very unlikely.
DrBiologist W.A.S.P The Nexus Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:22:00 - [129] Edited by: DrBiologist on 19/03/2008 03:24:35 Heres the problem with killing whales to feed our selfish mouths, Minkes- Sexual maturity is reached at the age of 7 û 8 years. With a gestation period of 10 -11 months, calving occurs once every two years Fin Whales- Gestation takes about 12 months, Females produce calves every couple of years after reaching sexual maturity at 3 to 12 years of age. Full maturity is usually attained at 25 to 30 years of age Blue Whale- Blue whales reach sexual maturity between the ages of 6-10 years. Gestation is abount 1 year and are born every 2-3 years. Grey Whale- reach maturity at 12 - 14 years. Females give birth every two to three years MOST OF THE TIME WHALES ONLY HAVE ONE CALF (highly unlikey for 2, if 2 were born only 1 would survive) On the other hand, Chicken- 21 days of incubation produces a baby chick , Sexual Maturity: Male 18 - 24 weeks Female 18 - 24 weeks Cow- Sexual maturity is around 18 months and has a gestation period of around 9 months and usually has around 2 babys. Classic example of how destructive our species is towards whales. Because of their enormous size and speed, blue whales were safe from early whalers, who could not pursue them in open boats with hand harpoons. But in 1868 a Norwegian, Sven Foyn, revolutionized the whaling industry with the invention of the exploding harpoon gun and by using steam and diesel powered factory ships and catcher boats. He also perfected the technique of inflating dead whales with air so they wouldn't sink after being harpooned. The whaling industry began to focus on blue whales after 1900. A single 27 m blue whale could yield up to 120 barrels of oil, and the blues were killed by the tens of thousands. The slaughter peaked in 1931 when over 29,000 were killed in one season. After that blue whales became so scarce that the whalers turned to other species. In 1966, almost too late, the International Whaling Commission (IWC) banned all hunting of blue whales and gave them worldwide protection. Recovery has been extremely slow, and only in the last few years have there been signs that their numbers may be increasing. Pre-whaling numbers have been estimated at 200,000, and though exact figures are not known, an estimated 5,000 survive today in three populations: North Atlantic, North Pacific, and the Southern Hemisphere. _____________ USA! USA! USA!
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:53:00 - [130] Originally by: Keorythe The method of bleeding an animal varies from location to location. In some places they have actual gear that will suck the blood out of a carcass after it has been killed. However, that kind of equipment is a luxury and only a recent innovation. In many countries they still do it "old school" where the animal has a vein severed and is bled to death before being butchered. As usual many people lack the ability to see customs differing from their own when it comes to food animals and handling. But for the sake of arguement try and use some basic medical sense. Even with their primitive nervous systems an animal is only going to be alive for a few seconds with that kind of blood loss. The brain dies and reacts in many different ways as it degrades. This can be total passivity to massive random neuron firings. The same thing occurs in humans and muscle spasms are not uncommon even after total exsanguation (bleed out). Since kosher food preparation rituals pre-date the existance of the US and even the UK, no amount of activity legislative-wise can really touch this as its a religous issue. About the only thing possible would be to try and start a movement within the religion itself and have it re-written. However, I find that to be very unlikely. "Traditional" methods is no excuse. If the people butchering the animal only have access to a knife then fine. But in all cases the most humane method of killing the animal should be opted for (within some reason for practicality). Yes, you are killing something so "humane" seems an odd word for it as it is never pretty but that is what we should strive for. What they were doing to the dolphins in that video was light years away from anything that could be called humane. Those animals were tortured. As for Kosher rules of dispatching animals I am not sure where it stands. Being a religious tradition affords some protection from laws that would seek to stop it but it is by no means an absolute protection. For instance the people of Fiji would strangle the wife of a man when he died so she could lead him to the afterlife (sometimes his mother as well...not kidding, look it up). I think it is safe to say that would not be permitted in the US or any Western country for that matter. Granted that is an extreme example but it illustrates that the law in the US can and will prohibit certain religious practices. So far I think Jews have managed to protect their methods of slaughter claiming they are no worse than modern slaughterhouses. In an idealized world (everything is done just so) they may be right. In practice (when a slaughterhouse is expected to dispatch a 1000 animals a day) it is claimed this is far from the reality. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:05:00 - [131] I've been to a slaughterhouse too and the pigs were gassed then bled dry without a killing blow and this in a country that prides itself on humane animal treatment. I wouldn't want to guess what goes on in backwards places like Italy for example. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Sephra Star The Galactic Collective	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:17:00 - [132] Consider This- I saw a documentary some years ago on various cultures that do in fact still exist today. I could never hope to try an convince anyone that the protein derived from the slaughter of animals is not essential to the needs of our collective dietary cunsumption. However, let us step back a moment and re-examine the essential aspect of what it is we are doing. We are in fact providing ouselves the protein required to sustain our life. There exists even today in certain cultures people who maintain their animals for this very purpose, but the surprising fact is they do not kill their animals. Instead they milk their animals of a portion of their blood in a way that does not permanent injury to the beast. They then drink the blood for their protein and the animal remains healthy, alive, and well. In the culture I refer to the people are very simple and do not have very much. The simple fact is the outright slaughtor of the animal would to them be a complete and total waste of their own life blood as they could not replace it. If nothing else I submit this fact illustrates just how unecessary is the killing of most animals for food. Interestingly these people were extremely healthy and as a group had lots of very active elderly folks.
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:19:00 - [133] Originally by: Wendat Huron I've been to a slaughterhouse too and the pigs were gassed then bled dry without a killing blow and this in a country that prides itself on humane animal treatment. I wouldn't want to guess what goes on in backwards places like Italy for example. Guess it depends on the gas. Some gasses the death is quite brutal...others you just go to sleep and do not wake up. Although I doubt they would introduce a poison as that could poison the meat I'd think which would be bad. I can't rightly imagine what they could use to avoid that except for something like CO2 which is really effectively suffocating the animals rather than gassing them (and if so I would count that as a rather brutal means if killing the animals). -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:24:00 - [134] Originally by: Sephra Star Interestingly these people were extremely healthy and as a group had lots of very active elderly folks. Swell...any report on infant mortality or numbers of people who drop dead from this or that disease? Drinking the unprocessed/uncooked blood of animals comes with a host of potential health problems for those who drink it (even if it does provide necessary nutrients). Out of curiosity do you have (or have you ever had) a cat as a pet? -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:25:00 - [135] when's Magnus gunna get hit with a ban stick, its obviouse he is just a troll alt.
Sephra Star The Galactic Collective	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:32:00 - [136] Edited by: Sephra Star on 19/03/2008 05:35:07 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Swell...any report on infant mortality or numbers of people who drop dead from this or that disease? Drinking the unprocessed/uncooked blood of animals comes with a host of potential health problems for those who drink it (even if it does provide necessary nutrients). Out of curiosity do you have (or have you ever had) a cat as a pet? Yes we have one cat... By the way I got lucky on a quick search. I am not sure if the documentary I saw was on these people. The Masai (or Maasai) living in Kenya and Tanzania.
Arcticblue2 Nordic Freelancers inc	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:17:00 - [137] Originally by: DrBiologist Edited by: DrBiologist on 19/03/2008 03:24:35 Heres the problem with killing whales to feed our selfish mouths, Minkes- Sexual maturity is reached at the age of 7 û 8 years. With a gestation period of 10 -11 months, calving occurs once every two years Fin Whales- Gestation takes about 12 months, Females produce calves every couple of years after reaching sexual maturity at 3 to 12 years of age. Full maturity is usually attained at 25 to 30 years of age Blue Whale- Blue whales reach sexual maturity between the ages of 6-10 years. Gestation is abount 1 year and are born every 2-3 years. Grey Whale- reach maturity at 12 - 14 years. Females give birth every two to three years MOST OF THE TIME WHALES ONLY HAVE ONE CALF (highly unlikey for 2, if 2 were born only 1 would survive) As far as I know it is only Minkwhale that is allowed to be hunted by norwegian whalers... Bluewhale is endangered and is not hunted. And as said before, to become a gunner on a whaleboat requires government approval, yearly marksmanstests and very strict rules on spotting whales. ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.
Filthy Pierre	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:54:00 - [138] Whoah! That's a relief - for one moment I though you guys were talking about my first wife.... FP Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:44:00 - [139] Originally by: Sephra Star Yes we have one cat... Do you make your cat eat a vegetarian diet? -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Adonis 4174 White Wolf Enterprises Harmonious Ascent	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:11:00 - [140] Originally by: Sephra Star Consider This- I saw a documentary some years ago on various cultures that do in fact still exist today. I could never hope to try an convince anyone that the protein derived from the slaughter of animals is not essential to the needs of our collective dietary cunsumption. However, let us step back a moment and re-examine the essential aspect of what it is we are doing. We are in fact providing ouselves the protein required to sustain our life. There exists even today in certain cultures people who maintain their animals for this very purpose, but the surprising fact is they do not kill their animals. Instead they milk their animals of a portion of their blood in a way that does not permanent injury to the beast. They then drink the blood for their protein and the animal remains healthy, alive, and well. In the culture I refer to the people are very simple and do not have very much. The simple fact is the outright slaughtor of the animal would to them be a complete and total waste of their own life blood as they could not replace it. If nothing else I submit this fact illustrates just how unecessary is the killing of most animals for food. Interestingly these people were extremely healthy and as a group had lots of very active elderly folks. Darwin could explain how this works to you. It's simple. The ability to survive on such an extreme diet requires a very specific metabolism. The Masai have been doing this for centuries and thus their members who did not have the correct metabolism all died out and the survivors' children are able to live like this. It's rather how lactose intolerance is so rare in Ireland. During the potato famine the lactose intolerant were culled by nature. The problem is that adopting a lifestyle which will kill a high percentage of your current population, for the good of future generations and animals, is never going to be popular. ---- Exploding underpants: The real weapon of last resort.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.03.19 13:08:00 - [141] Originally by: Sephra Star Originally by: Magnus Nordir My other argument still stands - they're more fun to hunt down than fish. Evidently you have never heard of "The Most Dangerous Game" Humans are far more fun to hunt. QFTFT!!! It is a great short story and has been adapted in so many forms. One of my favorites I have seen had Ice-T as a homeless man that was picked off the street to be used to be hunted. I won't spoil the movie but it is a pretty good adaptation. The movie was titled "Surviving the Game". Originally by: Magnus Nordir Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Seems unnecessary to me. Whale meat tastes good, and killing intelligent animals is fun because it's more of a challenge than dragging a ***** net behind your ship and catching thousands of ****** fish in one go. There are individuals in human history that thought human flesh was quite tastey. With afformentioned concept of hunting humans as the ultimate hunt and your concept of eating tastey intelligent animals, I say come on over and lets have some fun To be quite honest. Whaling on a large scale can not be allowed, not to be a tree-whale huggar (as stated before) most whale species are protected maily due to the fact that they are near extinction, just like most other creatures on this planet that are endangered. If the population of the whale that is being hunted is not compromised and the hunters use traditional means like most hunters use with other species, then I have absolutely no problem with it. As for the clout of CCP. If CCP is a major part of the Icelandic economy, themselves had a problem with whale hunting and/or the majority of the EVE player base had a problem with it, then I would suspect that CCP would have some influence over policy; if they chose to exercise their influence. That is speaking from an individual who knows how corporations can control a govenrment due to living in a county where corporations are a primary influencer in government policy. Slade P.S. This all comes from someone that hunts traditionally, many species of animals in the North American region. I also have plans, more like dreams, of getting into falconry. I also proudly wear to types of PETA shirts... 1) People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals and 2) People Eating Tastey Animals Which one I where depends on the group I will be around. I wear number #1 where people of the #2 persuasion are and I wear #2 where people of the #1 persuasion are. Call me Devils Advocate.
Magnus Nordir Asimov Industries Zeroth Continuum	Posted - 2008.03.19 16:52:00 - [142] Originally by: DrBiologist Quote: That just screams of ***** FAIL. Animals should be burned alive, so they're killed and roasted in one step. Just pour some *** oil on it and LET THE MOTHER** BURN! .......... wow, how old are you? 7? If you were my son i would wup ur ass everyday. Your most likey some ** nerd who sits on the forums all day just waiting for a chance to create hatred and anger. Just because u get your ass kicked in school and have no friends doesnt mean you can take your anger out on us. Either grow up or leave the forums cuz im sure everyone else feels the same. OH , ARE YOU GOD? oh wait...you've missed completely, not even close to me besides the "sits on forums all day" part. FAILFAG FAILS. *************************** Everything is possible for him who believes. Insprinc haptbandun - Inuar vigandun
Sephra Star The Galactic Collective	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:15:00 - [143] Edited by: Sephra Star on 19/03/2008 18:15:28 Originally by: Adonis 4174 The problem is that adopting a lifestyle which will kill a high percentage of your current population, for the good of future generations and animals, is never going to be popular. So instead we can continue to mindlessly stuff our gutts while watching our boob tubes until the NWO decides to speed up their already well underway cull of the human herd. Yes I guess its true if you think about it. Our cultures are pretty much FED by MASTERS in much the same way as we feed our own proverbial pets.
Kalahari Wayrest Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:21:00 - [144] Quote: Do you make your cat eat a vegetarian diet? EDIT: I guess I should be more specific. I am curious to know if you have the courage of your convictions. Why should the courage of anyones convictions extend to their cats? Isn't that just forcing your opinion/outlook/lifestyle on others? Something I don't agree with, be it friend, family, neighbour, child or cat That's trying to make everyone else have the courage of your convinctions, surely. One example that I was shown at some point (might be a bit vague, I could probably dig up the story if pushed) was a vegan couple who had a baby...unfortunately, the baby was forced to have the courage of their convictions too and died. (The person who showed me that was using it as an example to say 'stupid ******* vegans' which is not the point I'm trying to make - I'm sure there are plenty of responsible vegans who either a) allowed the child cows milk contrary to their own beliefs or b) sought health advice from a GP...) I think it's fine for people to be vegetarians or vegans if they want to be, but like anything else, not to force it on others - particularly not in the cases of babies or pets where they need the nutrients to survive and can't articulate any kind of decision/choice in the matter. __________________________ Indulge Me Consider Yourself Indulged - Immy ♥ Wow immy scored - Xorus
Sephra Star The Galactic Collective	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:37:00 - [145] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 19/03/2008 13:44:17 Originally by: Sephra Star Yes we have one cat... Do you make your cat eat a vegetarian diet? EDIT: I guess I should be more specific. I am curious to know if you have the courage of your convictions. In many ways I have managed to overturn and change some of my omivorian conditioning. Am I a vegitarian. No. Does it bother me to eat meat? Definately. The points I have made in this thread are primarily concerning Dolphins and yes I would in fact risk my life to save a dolphin even if that meant being shot at by humans. As well I would likely fly into an uncontrollable rage towards anyone I came upon torturing animals if I found myself in that predicament. If I happen to have a gun in my hand and find you trying to kill a dog of mine. Consider yourself shot without hesitation. Although I would likely aim to just wound. If I could get away with it I would be among those rescuing animals from experimental laboratories and animal control deathhouses. In short you could easily define me as a potential listing on a government E.C.C.O. Terrorist list. I would not hesitate to help, or shelter someone else who was on the run from government agencies for engaging in such practices.
Magnus Nordir Asimov Industries Zeroth Continuum	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:38:00 - [146] Quote: I think it's fine for people to be vegetarians or vegans if they want to be, but like anything else, not to force it on others - particularly not in the cases of babies or pets where they need the nutrients to survive and can't articulate any kind of decision/choice in the matter. I think it's fine to shove raw meat down vegetard's throats until it pokes out on the other end, but like anything else, not to force it on others - particularly not in the case of PEOPLE WHO EAT LIKE GOD ***** INTENDED THEM TO. *************************** Everything is possible for him who believes. Insprinc haptbandun - Inuar vigandun
Kalahari Wayrest Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:40:00 - [147] Quote: PEOPLE WHO EAT LIKE GOD ******* INTENDED THEM TO Don't force your religion on me please __________________________ Indulge Me Consider Yourself Indulged - Immy ♥ Wow immy scored - Xorus
Magnus Nordir Asimov Industries Zeroth Continuum	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:43:00 - [148] Originally by: Kalahari Wayrest Quote: PEOPLE WHO EAT LIKE GOD ***** INTENDED THEM TO Don't force your religion on me please I'm not forcing anything on you, you're refusing both the word of God and to act as a human being. I guess it's your choice if you want to burn in hell, but I still think vegetarians are *** disgusting idiots. It appals that they won't eat parts of dead animals' corpses. I mean, think, someone butchers those things just so we can eat them, the least you can do is *** DO ITGOT. *************************** Everything is possible for him who believes. Insprinc haptbandun - Inuar vigandun
Kalahari Wayrest Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:52:00 - [149] __________________________ Indulge Me Consider Yourself Indulged - Immy ♥ Wow immy scored - Xorus
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.19 19:12:00 - [150] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 19/03/2008 19:14:31 Originally by: Kalahari Wayrest Why should the courage of anyones convictions extend to their cats? Isn't that just forcing your opinion/outlook/lifestyle on others? Something I don't agree with, be it friend, family, neighbour, child or cat Sephra was putting forward an opinion that humans should not eat meat based on cruelty to animals in their slaughter and humans not really needing it. That Sephra has those convictions is fine. Everyone is allowed their opinions but in my book you should practice what you preach otherwise you are a hypocrite at the least. Having a pet cat is a distinctly luxury item. You do not need the cat (unless you are on a farm and the cat is for rodent control). If you are philosophically opposed to killing animals for human benefit then keeping a cat would fall within things you should not have because the cat requires meat for its survival. This is not the same as a wild animal hunting its food...this is a human killing other animals to keep their pet alive. If humans should not eat meat for nutrition how can you see your way to keeping a cat and feeding it meat? EDIT: Mind you I have nothing against cats (I have two along with a dog). But then I have no issues with eating meat and do not tell others they should not eat meat (or otherwise not use products derived from animals). I do however think or use of animals in this fashion should be as moral as possible and not wasteful. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"

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