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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.14 12:44:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Porsches
Edited by: Porsches on 14/03/2008 12:35:12
CCP never really cared about reeimbursement..
In Fleet battles the amount of lost ships due to lag and inability to warp out or even ask for shield/armor logistics before the ship was dead can prolly reach 90% or more. That alone would make CCP responsable to reeimburse almost all ships lost in a battle and they dont. They dont even recognize their server code is so bad that it is impossible to have a big fleet battle in 0.0 without everyone lagged out to hell.
For CCP as we all know there is NO LAG ever... really never ever, so ofc they dont reeimburse ppl.
What are you on about?
CCP's policy has never to reimburse just for lag, only for things which show up in logs, all PvP'rs know that.
CCP really have two fair choices open to them:
1/ To continue to look at reimbursement petitions as they do now, looking for confirmed reasons for ship losses which were their fault.
or
2/ Don't reimburse at all.
I'm glad they do #1, but I'd be equally happy with #2.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 14:00:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
They Don't Reiburse Node Crashes so i have no idea what your talking about.
orly?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 14:36:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Avon on 14/03/2008 14:36:56
Originally by: Haradgrim
CCP, what you don't realize is that you don't just have a responsibility to prove that an actual reimbursement is deserved under any given circumstances. The burden of proof should be on the developer to prove that the reimbursement was NOT deserved, and a woefully inadequate logging system is not a viable excuse.
So CCP should now be investigating the internet and popping around your house for a quick peek at your PC?
Posts like this are why CCP should scrap the petition system tbh.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 14:45:00 -
[4]
Originally by: W3370Pi4
had the same problem in an ice field when warping out to flee from Rats i was still taking damage even while warping out to Safe spot :S
i got some answer like " we didnt find anything in the database"
well im pretty sure if you look 5 minutes u don't find anything .
but whatever all good now , no hard feelings just give me "ambulation" and u can still have my money 
That is a classic lag death / desync, and it is exatly that sort of thing that *can't* be reimbursed.
You died because, as far as the server was concerned, you were still at the ice belt and never warped away.
The logs aren't going to show anything other than that, otherwise you wouldn't have died.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 14:56:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Haradgrim
[
Whoah there! I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. Just pointing out its a pretty failed policy if you have an insurance program and one of the insured ships disappears without the payout occuring and they claim they can't tell anything is amiss!
I'm not even sure what you think I meant.
Maybe someone took it from your hangar?
The point is, unless there is a bug or problem their end involved, and CCP can verify it, then nothing should be reimbursed.
It should not come down to a judgement call, it should be baised only on what facts are to hand (even if you feel more logs should be available).
The only alternative to a policy like that would be one of no reimbursement petitions at all.
Putting CCP in a position where they need to make a judgement call is potentially worse than someone not getting their stuff back.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 14:59:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Avon on 14/03/2008 14:59:59
Originally by: Ephemeron
Why would he stay at the ice belt long enough for belt rats to kill him? Did the rats scramble him? Did other players scramble him?
What sane person would suicide a ship to belt rats and then petition it back?
I know that logs don't show everything, but there is also such a thing as common sense.
He could have fallen asleep, or gone to buy a pizza, or had a power-cut, or his internet may have dropped, or a router between him and the server may have been stolen by aliens as part of a sinister invasion plan.
The point is, none of those things are under CCP's control, and nor can they investigate them. With that in mind, they can not reimburse the loss because it is not their fault - the server shows the guy's ship dying at an ice-belt to npcs, nothing more.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 15:26:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Vanessa Vasquez
Well, i understand CCPs argument here, but from my point of view, it's not very logical. Lemme explain:
In my early days, a lost my shiny rigged Ferox on a lvl3 massive attack, after doing lvl3s for about a month without a single loss. I always aligned to a station/stargate and hit the warp to button when shields dropped below 25%. This time, i did the same thing, and my ship also got into warp. At least, visually. I got the warp sequence, i got the warp sound etc., but i still got hit for more than 10 seconds while enganged in warp. I dunno what caused this, but i did not get reimbursted. Well, i did not get any reimburstments nor help of all my 5 or 6 petitions so far, but thats another story.
The point here is, that this attitude made me really want to quit EvE, though i absolutely love the game itself. And I think its easy to understand why, as one spend a lot amount of time gathering stuff/wealth and then loosing it completely without fault is nothing that makes you shout out a load hurray. Imo CCP/GM's have to handle this by visual adjustment.
Lets take my case for example. GM sees, its a new player. GM sees, he doesn't loose ships for a long period of time.GM sees it's the first petition. If GM doesn't reimburst at all, the player will of course be ****ed. And what would be so bad if he gets at least a partialy reimburstment, even it showed nothing unusual on the logs (as always...)? The ship definitely got destroyed, so there's no more ISK here added to eve. Showing some "goodwill" in some cases would be a smart descicion in my opinion - having much more good effects than bad.
just my 2 cents
I'm pretty good with words, but I am struggling to pick ones which would convey quite how strongly I disagree with you without being insulting, so I'll just leave it at that.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 15:47:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Avon on 14/03/2008 15:51:02
Originally by: Tarminic
That would be nice, but would it be possible without CCP having to hugely expand their GM department? Unless they doubled or tripled the number of petition-handlers, petition time would skyrocket. It would be nice though.
No, it wouldn't be nice.
It still comes down to judgement and opinion, and that just isn't acceptable.
Petitions should be decided on the available information only, and if that isn't enough to reimburse, don't.
Added for clarity: The value that one GM would give to a peice of subjective evidence, for example petition history, could be different to the weight given to it by another GM - leading to accusations of favouritism.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 15:57:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Eventy One
I believe that this poster here is confirming an observation that I suspect; basically some who reply to petitions do not do the foot work to confirm a users claim and simply use lack of evidence in the logs as an excuse to close the ticket. I mean, how could a GM possibly try to deny that logs did not show hours of down time?
All in all, I'm not sure this is completely broken, but I think that petition review, needs to be a bit more active to ensure tickets are not slipping by the wayside.
This isn't a reason to change the system in general though, spending that much time evaluating every single claim.
It is good that you can esculate a petition which has come to the wrong conclusion where facts (ie, evidence directly available to CCP) have been overlooked, but I think it is more important the resolution of the majority of petitions are handled as quickly as possible and leave the more detailed investigations to esculations.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 15:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Current system is much worse.
No, the current system is fair.
It may not be optimal, but it is not open to interpretation - and that is more important than a few extra people getting their stuff back, especially if some of them didn't really deserve it.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 16:40:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Avon on 14/03/2008 16:40:16
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Esmenet
I'd rather have them stop reimbursing anything at all, instead of a timeconsuming jury system open "judgement" calls.
You'd think different if you lost 4 billion isk to software/hardware issues that logs don't show anything.
If it was just 100 mil isk, I wouldn't care either. Even 500 mil is hurting not so bad. But when it's more than that, someone should help.
How would you feel if someone was given 4 billion they claimed to have lost, even if there was no evidence?
Happy?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.03.14 17:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ephemeron
No, I would just as actively condemn such a decision. I don't stand for "free stuff for all". I want fairness to the people who are really hurting.
So, how do you tell the difference between the legitimate 4 bil payout and the free ride?
Either you have enough evidence to support reimbursement or you don't; there is no place for reimbursement without proof.
The only acceptable proof is that which CCP control, otherwise that evidence could be tampered with.
So my point remains, reimburse when the evidence supports it, and only when the evidence supports it.
Even if you *think* the player might be right, and you feel sorry for his plight, they are not valid grounds for reimbursement .. no matter how much you may want to help him out, or how much you empathise with his situation.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
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