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Syath Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:05:00 - [1] A lot of times I hear people whining about competition on the eve markets now this brings me to wonder, if eve truly is the end product of world globalization. The current state of eve basically supports one huuuuge competitive market, Jita. So this brings me to wonder if in the future of the world all prices will be subject to one super very very volatile market in where prices can never stabilize, because every firm is trying to bully the other firm in order to make profits. Your thoughts... GO!
Daeva Vios New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:34:00 - [2] Edited by: Daeva Vios on 17/03/2008 04:34:27 There are three other major hubs for trade in EVE and countless minor hubs. There are also additional hubs for trade in the real world. Wherever civilization exists, there will be a trade hub.
Syath Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:36:00 - [3] and how many of these items in the other trade hubs are bought from jita and moved to them.
Cogwheel Legio Eterna	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:51:00 - [4] Edited by: Cogwheel on 17/03/2008 04:50:56 You're taking for granted that prices SHOULD hold to some arbitrarily defined stability. Please present your reasoning.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:57:00 - [5] Originally by: Syath So this brings me to wonder if in the future of the world all prices will be subject to one super very very volatile market in where prices can never stabilize, because every firm is trying to bully the other firm in order to make profits. Why are you using such negative connotation here? Someone pop your indy and steal your stuff? As I see it, Jita is the most stable market in Eve due to its volume, number of traders, etc. I really don't know what you're talking about when you say "bully", but competition is a feature of an active, healthy market.
Syath Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 05:22:00 - [6] what i'm saying is that there comes a point where you can no longer reduce costs and eve- shows this because, you cant outsource, and unless you bully your suppliers to the point of bankrupcy (Wall-Mart) you cant produce a product that is cheaper than other competitors, and why be bullied when you can easily put something on market in eve. Its also been said that in this century you can no longer compete on cost cutting techniques but only innovation. Thats the point i'm getting at.
Hexxx Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.17 05:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Syath what i'm saying is that there comes a point where you can no longer reduce costs and eve- shows this because, you cant outsource, and unless you bully your suppliers to the point of bankrupcy (Wall-Mart) you cant produce a product that is cheaper than other competitors, and why be bullied when you can easily put something on market in eve. Its also been said that in this century you can no longer compete on cost cutting techniques but only innovation. Thats the point i'm getting at. I happen to like capitalism. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Stellarr State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 05:38:00 - [8] The biggest difference in eve and real world, is that in eve all products are the same, in real world, most products are different, either in reality or in perception. It's also much harder to enter most market (oh, looky there, oil prices are going up, well, too bad it's not like eve and you can't just buy a bpo and make a profit) In the end, eve is a game, people play it for fun. In rl, most bussinesses are run for a profit, as such you are much likely to see a cartel, or a large firm buying out small ones then to see eve's .01isk undercutting.
Tiberaeus AlfaCorp SATRAPY	Posted - 2008.03.17 06:13:00 - [9] In the real world there are hundreds of exchanges. But the difference is that with the right technology, the largest banks are able to monitor all of them all at once. They find arbitrage across timezones and transfer the "products" virtually. There will likely always be a centralized place, but it would be cool if there were two poles that were placed far enough apart... this would be more likely if there were valuable ores on both sides that could be refined and used to manufacture modules that would be used for entirely different purposes, specific to each respective sphere of influence.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.17 06:23:00 - [10] Originally by: Syath what i'm saying is that there comes a point where you can no longer reduce costs and eve- shows this because, you cant outsource, and unless you bully your suppliers to the point of bankrupcy (Wall-Mart) you cant produce a product that is cheaper than other competitors, and why be bullied when you can easily put something on market in eve. Its also been said that in this century you can no longer compete on cost cutting techniques but only innovation. Thats the point i'm getting at. OTOH, if you're buying, it's great. Besides there's plenty of examples of high profit margin items. You're just not looking very hard.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.03.17 06:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Syath what i'm saying is that there comes a point where you can no longer reduce costs and eve- shows this because, you cant outsource, and unless you bully your suppliers to the point of bankrupcy (Wall-Mart) you cant produce a product that is cheaper than other competitors, and why be bullied when you can easily put something on market in eve. Its also been said that in this century you can no longer compete on cost cutting techniques but only innovation. Thats the point i'm getting at. I'd like to go ahead and point something out that you seem to have missed. You stress the point of cost cutting and ways to cut costs have run out and such. also, why concentrate on producing a product that is cheaper than your competitors?? if you feel this is impossible, then concentrate on producing a product that is better than your competitors. make buyers choose you not because you are the cheapest but because of how you bundle your product. How can you accomplish this?? Here are a few ways: 1. Bundle your product with products that complement it. i.e. bundle your ship with mods that are generally fitted on it, or with fittings that complement missions in your area. 2. Bundle your items with services. i.e. deliver your goods or arrange delivery. 3. Use your imagination. Be creative. The above three examples are based off your desire to increase profits but do not utilize the use of the traditional market buy and sell orders. My point??? If you have a problem with how the market works and are having trouble using it to make a profit, find another way to make that profit. Don't concentrate on how to reduce costs, think about how you can charge more and end up selling more. Amarr Citizen 155 ---------------------------------------------- Why do it the hard way when you can do it the AMARR way.
Vested Interest Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.17 06:34:00 - [12] Originally by: Syath and how many of these items in the other trade hubs are bought from jita and moved to them. Umm lots? If I see that 'Arbalest' Heavy Putting Wedges are going for 8 million in Nonni but only 4 mil in Jita, I'm gonna ride that horse until it's dead.
Shadarle LI0NS Industries	Posted - 2008.03.17 06:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Syath what i'm saying is that there comes a point where you can no longer reduce costs and eve- shows this because, you cant outsource, and unless you bully your suppliers to the point of bankrupcy (Wall-Mart) you cant produce a product that is cheaper than other competitors, and why be bullied when you can easily put something on market in eve. Its also been said that in this century you can no longer compete on cost cutting techniques but only innovation. Thats the point i'm getting at. You assume everyone is equally intelligent. Once you factor in stupidity everything works perfectly.
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.17 11:22:00 - [14] SonOfAGhost's trading axiom of the day: Sell where your customers are, not where your competition is. Originally by: CCP Explorer This is intended, to not clutter the overview with information that new players don't need in their first few hours. (on stargates not being on overview)
Cogwheel Legio Eterna	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:00:00 - [15] Edited by: Cogwheel on 17/03/2008 14:02:02 Someone needs to read up on ACTUAL economics. Did you know that one recent study suggests that Wal-Mart was responsible for no less than 13% of the entire growth in US GDP over the last decade?
vanBuskirk Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Syath what i'm saying is that there comes a point where you can no longer reduce costs and eve- shows this because, you cant outsource, and unless you bully your suppliers to the point of bankrupcy (Wall-Mart) you cant produce a product that is cheaper than other competitors, and why be bullied when you can easily put something on market in eve. Its also been said that in this century you can no longer compete on cost cutting techniques but only innovation. Thats the point i'm getting at. You assume everyone is equally intelligent. Once you factor in stupidity everything works perfectly. Well said. As an example; there is a major market hub (no, not Jita, but I won't say where) in which one of the drone alloys is being bought, on *buy orders, for more than its mineral value at the same spot - even assuming perfect refine and zero refinery tax. I'll have to see if I can find any of that alloy on sale. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."*
cosmoray School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Syath what i'm saying is that there comes a point where you can no longer reduce costs and eve- shows this because, you cant outsource, and unless you bully your suppliers to the point of bankrupcy (Wall-Mart) you cant produce a product that is cheaper than other competitors, and why be bullied when you can easily put something on market in eve. Its also been said that in this century you can no longer compete on cost cutting techniques but only innovation. Thats the point i'm getting at. You assume everyone is equally intelligent. Once you factor in stupidity everything works perfectly. Can we call it the Shadarle constant (S), who along with other smart players repeatedly showed people how to calculate the TRUE value of goods and services. This advice having been ignored and made us all richer. Just like the H.G Wells book "The Time Machine", the stupid people are the Eloi whose job is to be food for the Murlocks.
Syath Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 16:09:00 - [18] the point of capitalism is that competition as a group makes the market much smarter than anyone can ever be, thus there are no stupid people in capitalism only losers ^^ At any rate, my point is how the world is becoming more centralized, for example the leveling out of wages, right now outsourcing allows for profits to be higher and products to be cheaper what happens when the wages rise in these developing countries, then we get something similar to eve competition.
Brisco Smiley Peppermint Bay Trading Company	Posted - 2008.03.17 19:08:00 - [19] Originally by: vanBuskirk As an example; there is a major market hub (no, not Jita, but I won't say where) in which one of the drone alloys is being bought, on *buy orders*, for more than its mineral value at the same spot - even assuming perfect refine and zero refinery tax. Actually, that is the case in Jita too. For the alloys with high Tritanium content, I presume this is because they make it easier to transport the minerals to 0.0. The prices are regularly 2 or 3 times mineral value. Even alloys that do not provide that benefit seem to be inflated, but not as much. The rest I chalk up to convenience, speculation and stupidity. I got into compounds and alloys in Lonetrek perhaps 5 months ago. At that time, they were being sold to region-wide buy orders like any other mission drop. I totally slaughtered that cash cow out from under whoever was milking it. At some point, the competition showed up, and the market was no longer lucrative enough to be interesting. These days the prices are just stupid-high, not just at Jita, but on region-wide orders for most of them. My orders currently lie in wait for the return to normalcy. Cheers, Brisco Smiley
Ghreymar LaNayeur Pariah Corp	Posted - 2008.03.17 20:40:00 - [20] Edited by: Ghreymar LaNayeur on 17/03/2008 20:50:08 someone's mentioned it before, but the biggest difference between eve markets and RL markets are homogenized goods, perfectly competitive markets, and few entrance barriers. It pretty much makes eve your textbook microeconomics example. If something is selling too high, you can expect an influx of new manufacturers to flood the market until the price drops. If the price is below break-even point, you can expect a bunch of manufacturers to liquidate and exit the market. I think the biggest problems eve has though is the lack of a proper market for funds, and a viable futures market. Pretty much all markets would stand to gain from a market for loanable funds, and a proper futures market would be a huge boon for manufacturers and people running reaction chains. I for one would love speculating on futures market. its a PITA calculating NAV with millions of stuff sitting in my hangar until the price goes up. edit: I also don't see why the OP thinks that EVE supports only one giant volatile market in jita? theres TONNES of smaller hubs out there that cater to those who don't want to make the 20 jumps out to jita, and are just as profitable and often have more price stability than jita.
Daeva Vios New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2008.03.17 23:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Ghreymar LaNayeur Edited by: Ghreymar LaNayeur on 17/03/2008 20:50:08 someone's mentioned it before, but the biggest difference between eve markets and RL markets are homogenized goods, perfectly competitive markets, and few entrance barriers. It pretty much makes eve your textbook microeconomics example. If something is selling too high, you can expect an influx of new manufacturers to flood the market until the price drops. If the price is below break-even point, you can expect a bunch of manufacturers to liquidate and exit the market. I think the biggest problems eve has though is the lack of a proper market for funds, and a viable futures market. Pretty much all markets would stand to gain from a market for loanable funds, and a proper futures market would be a huge boon for manufacturers and people running reaction chains. I for one would love speculating on futures market. its a PITA calculating NAV with millions of stuff sitting in my hangar until the price goes up. edit: I also don't see why the OP thinks that EVE supports only one giant volatile market in jita? theres TONNES of smaller hubs out there that cater to those who don't want to make the 20 jumps out to jita, and are just as profitable and often have more price stability than jita. The interest isn't there for a player-run futures exchange. A formal futures exchange might fare better, but it would be plagued in its early stages by scammers unless there were concrete measures to prevent it. The market is there for funds and loan institutions do exist. Currently there is a glut of investment capital, a result of simply too much money in the game and inflation that doesn't rise to meet growing wallets. There's no way to get rid of this problem without completely eliminating all price ceilings and floors, in my eyes, though this again has been discussed and argued over and over and over. Ultimately it doesn't much matter. The ball is in CCP's court. They have an economist who is hopefully telling them what they need to do to fix the problems in their economy, and hopefully they're listening.
Pang Grohl Sudo Corp	Posted - 2008.03.18 00:48:00 - [22] EVE's markets are hyper-competitive because of the imbalance between production and consumption. For the bulk of player produced goods there is far more product than the available ISK can purchase. This holds true for everything that doesn't have a constrained supply (AFAIK moon materials & their derivative goods are the only ones that fit this category). Everything else simply requires more effort to be applied to acquire more of it. Add this to the fact that many goods are produced coincidentally to non-production activities (loot from ratting & missions), and it becomes almost impossible for the available wealth to get to a point where it can acquire the available goods. It's really an ultimate case of oversupply. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.03.18 09:56:00 - [23] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 18/03/2008 10:00:33 Originally by: Pang Grohl EVE's markets are hyper-competitive because of the imbalance between production and consumption. . I think you're missing the point here. In RL the price of a product is determined by a heap of factors that in the game are leveled for everyone. The price should be a direct result of varying production expenses (and many more) and not hyper-active undercutting. At its present stage Eve does not incorporate enough diversity to make that possible.
Cogwheel Legio Eterna	Posted - 2008.03.18 14:07:00 - [24] Originally by: YouGotRipped The price should a direct result of varying production expenses (and many more) and not hyper-active undercutting. Anyone who thinks a price should be ANYTHING besides what people will pay is suffering from a severe misunderstanding of economics. Prices are all relative and they always reflect innumerable factors no matter how level the playing field.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.03.18 15:19:00 - [25] Originally by: Cogwheel Originally by: YouGotRipped The price should a direct result of varying production expenses (and many more) and not hyper-active undercutting. Anyone who thinks a price should be ANYTHING besides what people will pay is suffering from a severe misunderstanding of economics. Prices are all relative and they always reflect innumerable factors no matter how level the playing field. Gee, I forgot just how simple the "economy" is in this game. hahah Obviously that's what I'm trying to change here.
Pang Grohl Sudo Corp	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:40:00 - [26] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 18/03/2008 10:11:33 Originally by: Pang Grohl EVE's markets are hyper-competitive because of the imbalance between production and consumption. . I think you're missing the point here. In RL the price of a product is determined by a heap of factors that in the game are leveled for everyone. The price should be a direct result of varying production expenses (and many more) and not hyper-active undercutting. At its present stage Eve does not incorporate enough diversity to make that possible, logistics is far too manageable etc. The hyper-active undercutting happens, because the market is oversupplied. The market is oversupplied for a number of reasons. A few of which CCP has control over. The rest are all down to player behavior. A primary cause that CCP could fix, is that too many critical resources have effectively unlimited supply (factory capacity, raw materials, currency f.ex). This allows any hobbyist manufacturer to produce goods to supply a whole region effectively on a whim. And many do so without considering market saturation; leading to more goods chasing the same credits. Which ultimately leads to price wars. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Sebastian Kane Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.18 22:50:00 - [27] Well, I've been building up my character to get into serious production (training Production Efficiency 5 right now), but this thread makes me question if that's the best course at the moment. While I don't doubt that, with some cleverness, I could still find good markets for my own manufactured goods, it sounds like, for the good of the market in general, it would be better to have more consumption and less production. Maybe JihadSwarm isn't such a bad thing after all, chewing through manufactured goods with their high-sec suicide ganks, and introducing new insurance money into the economy.
Syath Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.22 06:57:00 - [28] Edited by: Syath on 22/03/2008 06:58:08 what seems to be really interesting is i'm beginning to notice a market lag, when prices of building components changes the price of the finished product seems to hover at a loss for about a week or so, and then it begins to catch up with itself.
Akita T	Posted - 2008.03.22 08:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Shadarle You assume everyone is equally intelligent. Once you factor in stupidity everything works perfectly. Lazyness is also a huge factor. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.03.22 09:20:00 - [30] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Shadarle You assume everyone is equally intelligent. Once you factor in stupidity everything works perfectly. Lazyness is also a huge factor. Indeed. I believe we have both in equal parts. If only we could have more of the ones with large amounts of both, they are worth their weight in gold.
Hexxx Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.23 01:41:00 - [31] Originally by: Pang Grohl The hyper-active undercutting happens, because the market is oversupplied. The market is oversupplied for a number of reasons. A few of which CCP has control over. The rest are all down to player behavior. A primary cause that CCP could fix, is that too many critical resources have effectively unlimited supply (factory capacity, raw materials, currency f.ex). This allows any hobbyist manufacturer to produce goods to supply a whole region effectively on a whim. And many do so without considering market saturation; leading to more goods chasing the same credits. Which ultimately leads to price wars. Barriers to Entry are almost non-existant in EVE, allowing any Joe Blow to buy a few Tech 1 BPO's, dock in the nearest station, grab some minerals and start building whatever. Ironically, T2 BPO Lottery RAISED the barriers to entry (perhaps prohibitively so) which was good to some extent...the market was undersupplied in some cases and in others, was just manipulated (not so good). Right now, the skills requirements are minimal and as long as you have a semi-decent stash of cash, you TOO can be a manufacturer! What's the happy answer? Maybe nothing in this case... CCP has described EVE as "hyper-capitalistic" and while I don't know exactly what that means, oversupplying a market may be part of that strategy. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Kazzac Elentria Sanctuary Aegis Consortium	Posted - 2008.03.23 01:52:00 - [32] Oversupply from a game design point ensures unlimited resources towards the end-game design points in the various aspects of the game. It also ensures things like alliance wars can happen more frequently, since an oversupply insures limitless war potential. Reducing supply would slow the game down essentially. Something that I'm sure a few of you out there would love... but the vast majority of players do not like. You have to remember unlike most games.. the limiting factor here is not equipment. We do not lust after shards, we do not lust after faction items, etc.. because in the end there are really unlimited number of these items. There are very..very very few truly unique items in the game. No what is the true value and what determines the speed limit of the game is the skill point system. For the SP system to work as it does, requires unlimited supply.
Brisco Smiley Peppermint Bay Trading Company	Posted - 2008.03.23 02:21:00 - [33] Originally by: Hexxx Barriers to Entry are almost non-existant in EVE, allowing any Joe Blow to buy a few Tech 1 BPO's, dock in the nearest station, grab some minerals and start building whatever. Granted, I am small-time, and everything is a matter of degrees, but I find that there are some barriers to entry. For basic tech-1 ammunition and modules, yes, it's very simple to start manufacturing them. The BPO's are cheap, and the hardest part of researching them is waiting out the empire ME queues. Even there, though, you really need to train PE5 if you want to make any money at all. It isn't much of a barrier, but you don't exactly pick it up as a natural part of your standard pew-pew skill progression. Once you start looking at things like battleships, the BPO's start to cost money. If you don't look at what's going on and plan ahead, you can loose quite a bit of money and never get it back. Buying a 0/0 Raven BPO these days, for example, is only marginally more profitable than evacuating a billion isk out your space-toilet. Once you start looking at capital ships and tech-2 items, you have to deal with a reasonably complex supply chain. Sure, you can set up to do a single reaction or one ship, but then you are at the mercy of your suppliers and consumers. You have to be willing to carry a little bit of inventory or you're going to get screwed by normal market fluctuations. If you're anywhere in the middle, you have competitive pressures on both sides, and your job becomes more like that of a trader, buying materials low and selling products high. All the while, you have the legitimate businessmen throwing elbows and illegitimate businessmen selling their crap for less than it costs to make. Sure, you can start making stuff any time, but there is a barrier. You have to be good at it in order to do it for profit. I think there are a lot of casual industrialists dabbling in it because there is simply so much isk in circulation and unprofitable manufacturing is something of a sink. Having these people active in the market doesn't mean the market is broken. They are a feature of it. If someone lists below cost, buy them out. If someone lists for low margin, wait them out. If someone is willing to take lower margin than you think you should make, well, you loose at capitalism. Here at Thunderdome, we ought to start treating the "my BPO doesn't print money" crying the same way we treat the "under-cutters won't let me sell for high enough" crying. To me, they sound about the same. Cheers, Brisco Smiley
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.23 05:32:00 - [34] At a glance, there's no real definition of "hypercapitalism". I think of it as virtually everything including government functions is part of the capitalist system. That certainly is the case out in 0.0 space.
SencneS Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.23 06:31:00 - [35] EVE isn't a good example of Real World Globalization. A couple of reasons. 1) EVE has an never ending supply of raw materials which people trade. Real World is not that lucky, so you have companies, counties and consortium's hoarding material. A great example of this is Jewelry, or more specific Diamonds. Companies keep them under lock and slowly leak out a continued low supply to keep their value high, even though Diamonds are the most common Gem, but they just as valuable as say Rube or Emerald which are rare. This doesn't happen in EVE, in face there are IPO's designed around it's direct trade. 2) EVE doesn't have localized market specific items. Anywhere in EVE you can get anything, well you can sell anything as well. You can also make anything to sell or use. Real World is not that lucky, if it was there would be a distinct lack of a market. Places like Japan are too small to have enough Farm land to feed itself, so it imports meats, wheat, rice etc. And places like Australia are 85% useless land, but those counties product items the rest of the world needs. Electronics from Japan and Uranium from Australia (80% of the worlds Uranium) If you really wanted to emulate real world you'd need to do the following 1) Remove about 90% of the jump gates that lead to and from other regions. 2) Remove Veldspar from 3 of the 4 empires. 3) Remove Pyerite from 3 of the 4 empires. 4) Minimize asteroid spawn by 90% it's current value. 5) Remove NCP sold items that can be reprocessed 6) Remove BPOs from the game and turn it skill based, You need Hybrid Manufacturing lvl 1 to make Small Hybrid Charges, lvl2 - Medium, lvl3 - Large, lvl4 T2 versions, lvl5 XL. Projectile Manufacturing the same etc. A skill for everything you can make in the game right now. 7) Empire specific items that will ONLY GO on YOU EMPIRE ship, Energy Weapons can ONLY go on Amarr ships etc. These are just some of the things you would need to do to really emulate world markets and economy. Amarr for Life
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.03.23 07:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Shadarle You assume everyone is equally intelligent. Once you factor in stupidity everything works perfectly. Lazyness is also a huge factor. Who said that the purpose of life is not wasting time (whatever you do)? Hahah Originally by: SencneS These are just some of the things you would need to do to really emulate world markets and economy. At least one of you got it. Congratulations.
Syath Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.24 17:14:00 - [37] having less supply doesnt mean there wont be wars waged all the time. In fact with less supply it will create more, of course there will be less expensive ships but I for one believe that too be a good thing, the one thing i've heard thrown around even on EVE TV is there isnt a real reason to take over another region, because they all generally have the same resources.

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