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Kelbesque Crystalis
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:46:00 -
[31]
And for all that fitting, you get a ship that has the same or less DPS than a Maelstrom.
Meanwhile the Kronos and Paladin get a real damage bonus over their base T1 ships.
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Anna Lawrencia
Federation Fleet Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:47:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Rib0
if we are talking purely PVE, the actual magnitude of tank is irrelivant, as long as it is above the threshold that lets it take the required amount of agression from a mission then it is fine and effectively equal to any other tank that can take the agression. if the varg can do this without the rig slots and 1 low slot, then i dont think it is an issue. after the tank is sorted, you concentrate on dps. im fairly sure that the varg can fit the tank that is needed + 4 1400mm guns and 3 damage mods. just like a mael. Im not really seeing how this makes it less of a mission running ship.
Exactly, and the maelstrom can tank that amount easy and get the exact same dps, the vargur is just an expensive maelstrom with same tank and dps, and tbh you gotta do missions for ALONG time before the 4 guns vs 8 guns makes it pay off in ammo (how many rounds can i get for 700mill?)
also my maelstrom got damage and tracking mods in all the lows and a cap booster in meds for full gank, can a vargur do that?
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Rib0
Regression.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:48:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Rib0
if we are talking purely PVE, the actual magnitude of tank is irrelivant, as long as it is above the threshold that lets it take the required amount of agression from a mission then it is fine and effectively equal to any other tank that can take the agression. if the varg can do this without the rig slots and 1 low slot, then i dont think it is an issue. after the tank is sorted, you concentrate on dps. im fairly sure that the varg can fit the tank that is needed + 4 1400mm guns and 3 damage mods. just like a mael. Im not really seeing how this makes it less of a mission running ship.
Because you can use those slots on gank on the Maelstrom.
-Liang
I think im probably missing somthing, but if you already have 3 damage mods and a couple of tracking mods, what else can you fit to gank with?
also, i hadnt noticed about the smaller drone bay, thats definately a disadvantage
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Kelbesque Crystalis
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:49:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 19/03/2008 17:51:34
Originally by: Rib0
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/03/2008 17:28:22
Originally by: Rib0
low: 3x republic fleet Gyro 1x RCU II 1x tracking enhancer II
rigs: 2x ancilary current router
So what you're saying is that the Vargur trades 3 rig slots, a low slot, and 25m^3 drone space for lower ammo usage, 3 high slots that are barely useful, and a theoretically better tank if you train Marauders 5?
Also, the Vargur loses the ability to fit a heavy cap booster like the Mael can, and go all out gank for the missions.
-Liang
Ed: The RF ammo is important though, and is exactly the reason everyone wants to be able to fit arties on it.
if we are talking purely PVE, the actual magnitude of tank is irrelivant, as long as it is above the threshold that lets it take the required amount of agression from a mission then it is fine and effectively equal to any other tank that can take the agression. if the varg can do this without the rig slots and 1 low slot, then i dont think it is an issue. after the tank is sorted, you concentrate on dps. im fairly sure that the varg can fit the tank that is needed + 4 1400mm guns and 3 damage mods. just like a mael. Im not really seeing how this makes it less of a mission running ship.
Because 4x gyros + 1x TE is a solid 5% more DPS than 3x gryos + 1xTE + 1x RCUII. Sorry if I dont want to spend 800mil and skill training to lose 5% DPS.
Edit: As stated above, the other turret ships get a 14-20% boost to DPS over their T1 versions.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:54:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Rib0
I think im probably missing somthing, but if you already have 3 damage mods and a couple of tracking mods, what else can you fit to gank with?
also, i hadnt noticed about the smaller drone bay, thats definately a disadvantage
A fourth gyro, optimal/falloff/tracking rigs, CCC's... I'm sure you can come up with something to fit in those slots.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Rib0
Regression.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 18:00:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 19/03/2008 17:51:34
Originally by: Rib0
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/03/2008 17:28:22
Originally by: Rib0
low: 3x republic fleet Gyro 1x RCU II 1x tracking enhancer II
rigs: 2x ancilary current router
So what you're saying is that the Vargur trades 3 rig slots, a low slot, and 25m^3 drone space for lower ammo usage, 3 high slots that are barely useful, and a theoretically better tank if you train Marauders 5?
Also, the Vargur loses the ability to fit a heavy cap booster like the Mael can, and go all out gank for the missions.
-Liang
Ed: The RF ammo is important though, and is exactly the reason everyone wants to be able to fit arties on it.
if we are talking purely PVE, the actual magnitude of tank is irrelivant, as long as it is above the threshold that lets it take the required amount of agression from a mission then it is fine and effectively equal to any other tank that can take the agression. if the varg can do this without the rig slots and 1 low slot, then i dont think it is an issue. after the tank is sorted, you concentrate on dps. im fairly sure that the varg can fit the tank that is needed + 4 1400mm guns and 3 damage mods. just like a mael. Im not really seeing how this makes it less of a mission running ship.
Because 4x gyros + 1x TE is a solid 5% more DPS than 3x gryos + 1xTE + 1x RCUII. Sorry if I dont want to spend 800mil and skill training to lose 5% DPS.
Edit: As stated above, the other turret ships get a 14-20% boost to DPS over their T1 versions.
however, if you set up as you described and are shooting a target moving more than 70 meters a second, with both ships using EMP ammo the vargur outdamages at all ranges due to the tracking bonus and fall-off bonus, by alot more than 14% for ranges over about 60km |
Rib0
Regression.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 18:02:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Rib0
I think im probably missing somthing, but if you already have 3 damage mods and a couple of tracking mods, what else can you fit to gank with?
also, i hadnt noticed about the smaller drone bay, thats definately a disadvantage
A fourth gyro, optimal/falloff/tracking rigs, CCC's... I'm sure you can come up with something to fit in those slots.
-Liang
I havent checked, but do any combinations more than compensate for a built in 50% falloff bonus and a 37.5% tracking bonus? |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.19 18:08:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Rib0
I havent checked, but do any combinations more than compensate for a built in 50% falloff bonus and a 37.5% tracking bonus?
Just a guess, but I'd say "yes", unless you're running an AC Mael. I'd verify it, but I'm at work. :)
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Kelbesque Crystalis
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.19 18:11:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 19/03/2008 18:12:44 Using a longer range ammo and an optimal scripted TC in the mids pushes optimal up high enough that the range bonus from falloff become moot (lock range). I personally use PP over EMP for Sansha/Blood raiders. Tracking bonus is nice, but there are few situations where it matters. Even with EMP as you described, the difference is marginal.
You dont have to run 4x gyro 2xTE, you can run 3xgyro and 2xTE to compensate for short range ammo, but you cant on a vargur.
Edit: the boost to the other turret Marauders applies to ALL ranges, in addition to the web bonus they got.
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Kelbesque Crystalis
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.19 18:18:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 19/03/2008 18:21:40
Originally by: Rib0
however, if you set up as you described and are shooting a target moving more than 70 meters a second, with both ships using EMP ammo the vargur outdamages at all ranges due to the tracking bonus and fall-off bonus, by alot more than 14% for ranges over about 60km
What are you firing against to get this data? If you use the default in the tracking guide, its set for frig sig radius, which tbh is a poor example since they usually insta pop. Set it to 125m for crusiers. Both ships will do more DPS, and there is no clear "better at every range"
Edit: spelling
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Rib0
Regression.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 18:28:00 -
[41]
I think we are now clutching at very small differences in the damage performance of the two ships (somone is probably going to come along and prove me wrong), and I believe we have established that both ships can fit the tank required with slots free for 3 damage mods and perhaps some tracking mods (also tracking rigs in the case of the mael, but they are approximately offset by the vargs built in bonuses). so in terms of damage and tankability we have approximatley the same ship.
(im sorry to keep remaking the same points and trying to conclude, but here we go anyway)
the factors left seperating them are the mael costs about 150 million the varg costs about 700 million (4.5 times more) the varg can loot as it flies the varg uses half as much (faction) ammo the varg looses out on 40 dps (using 2x heavy, 2x med 1x light, against 3x heavy 2x med - assuming max drone skills and t2 gallente drones) the varg looks better and is less common (personal opinion)
it would be interesting to see how long it would take to save the 550 from time saved during looting and ammo savings
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Kelbesque Crystalis
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.19 18:35:00 -
[42]
I was incorrect about the other ships and their bonuses.
I concur that damage and tankage is a wash. The falloff and tracking offset the extra low, with the mael having a slight advantage of flexibility.
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Anna Lawrencia
Federation Fleet Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 19:01:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Anna Lawrencia on 19/03/2008 19:03:23
Originally by: Rib0
i dont think any of the marauders get much of a damage bonus over the tier 3 battleships
kronos: 8 turrets (effective), 5% damage bonus 125m dronebay, extra low slot for damage mod hyp: 8 turrets, 5% damage bonus 75m drone bay
paladin: 8 turrets (effective), 5% damage, 75m drone, 50% less cap use on turrets. abaddon: 8 turrets, 5% damage, 75m drone
cant really compare rokh and golem
fixed it for you
also the maelstorm is way sexyer =)
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Rib0
Regression.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 19:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Anna Lawrencia Edited by: Anna Lawrencia on 19/03/2008 19:03:23
Originally by: Rib0
i dont think any of the marauders get much of a damage bonus over the tier 3 battleships
kronos: 8 turrets (effective), 5% damage bonus 125m dronebay, extra low slot for damage mod hyp: 8 turrets, 5% damage bonus 75m drone bay
paladin: 8 turrets (effective), 5% damage, 75m drone, 50% less cap use on turrets. abaddon: 8 turrets, 5% damage, 75m drone
cant really compare rokh and golem
fixed it for you
also the maelstorm is way sexyer =)
hehe fair enough
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EpicFailTroll
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.19 19:40:00 -
[45]
VARGUR VIKERNES
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Kelbesque Crystalis
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:45:00 -
[46]
So give the Vargur 15% more grid to allow it to not need the RCUII in the lows. Even with that, you have to use both of your rig slots for ACR's. None of the other Marauders need such fitting mods to fit their long range guns.
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.19 21:30:00 -
[47]
Edited by: ElCoCo on 19/03/2008 21:31:10
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Originally by: ElCoCo Edited by: ElCoCo on 18/03/2008 20:50:26 If you want a solution, you need to take into account CCP's reasoning for not doing what you proposed in the first place (it shouldn't have a lot of PG so as not to fit hvy neuts along with autocannons and be overpowered in pvp).
The only solution (imo) would be to have a "role" bonus to reduced PG requirement to large artilleries only (much like the bonus stealthbombers have to fitting cruiselaunchers). That way it could still fit arties but not be able to do what the devs "fear".
While I agree with this as a viable solution, it should be noted that some of the other marauders CAN fit short range weapons and Nuets without that much trouble.
Um not what I meant realy, but I should have added that the overpowerdness would come in conjuction with capless weapons. You can't setup the golem for example to go shortrange "gank" with a mwd and 2-3 heavy neuts. Well, you can, but you'll have to fit at least 2 grid modules to get just cruiselaunchers to fit along with 2hvy neuts, so that's not a stellar setup there.
A vargur with grid to "comfortably" fit 1400mm arties would have atleast 12k grid (random out of the a$$ number) which would enable it to fit a full rack of 800mm's, 2 hvy neuts, mwd, cap injector, shield booster.... just by fitting a faction PDU.... you see where I'm getting at, no?
Anyway, I haven't even tried the vargur on the test server to see how it performs so don't bash me. All I'm saying is that in order to please "everyone", that PG reduction bonus to arties seems to be the only way I can possibly think that won't imbalance everything else. Boink! |
AstroPhobic
STK Scientific Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.19 22:51:00 -
[48]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 19/03/2008 22:54:07 Edited by: AstroPhobic on 19/03/2008 22:51:12 Or maybe, just MAYBE, the tempest can ALREADY fit AC's + MWD + Neuts + Injector
How many of those do you see around?
edit: MWD + injector + disruptor leaves a MASSIVE 3 slot tank left to use with an already reduced and neuted cap, and neuting your own cap leaves the distinct possibility of something webbing you, which is death.
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Guillame Herschel
The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.20 00:03:00 -
[49]
I dunno. I ran several L4 missions on Sisi in a Vargur fitted with 800mm II and T2 Ambit Extension rigs. It performed really well, especially versus Angels and Serpentis, who generally like to attack at close range. But I cannot fly any of the other Marauders, so I can't compare to them. I can say I'd rather have a Vargur than a Maelstrom, even if the DPS is equivalent. Maelstrom does not have 4 utility slots nor a tractor bonus.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then. -- |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.20 00:05:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel I dunno. I ran several L4 missions on Sisi in a Vargur fitted with 800mm II and T2 Ambit Extension rigs. It performed really well, especially versus Angels and Serpentis, who generally like to attack at close range. But I cannot fly any of the other Marauders, so I can't compare to them. I can say I'd rather have a Vargur than a Maelstrom, even if the DPS is equivalent. Maelstrom does not have 4 utility slots nor a tractor bonus.
I'd probably go with a Mach TBH. :)
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
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Slide
Butcherblock Mining and Manufacturing
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Posted - 2008.03.20 00:06:00 -
[51]
4 utility slots, did i miss something?
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.20 00:10:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Slide 4 utility slots, did i miss something?
No, I'm sure he was thinking of the Domi. :)
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Slide
Butcherblock Mining and Manufacturing
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Posted - 2008.03.20 00:13:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Slide 4 utility slots, did i miss something?
No, I'm sure he was thinking of the Domi. :)
-Liang
Pfew for a moment i thought someone scammed me and sold me a second hand vargur
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