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Pyriell
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.03.19 10:07:00 -
[1]
I have the standings to run level 4 missions which i aim to be do in a Raven which I'm currently saving up/skilling up for.
My question is, can someone give me a ballpark figure to aim for in terms of DPS and tank.
I'll be using EFT to test setups and just need a baseline to aim for to start with.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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Carniflex
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.03.19 10:46:00 -
[2]
Around 450 dps and around 600 dps tank are ok as ballpark figures. They are ofc not absolute as you can do stuff without warpouts lower than that also if you know what you are doing.
With proper tackiks you can use dps as tank as dead rats don't do damage altho it is harder than just sitting there and tanking them while bleeding em dead.
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Kusha'an
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Posted - 2008.03.19 12:04:00 -
[3]
Exactly. Level 4s are very fluid creatures. Some of them have few ships that do massive damage, like the drone missions, and others like Blockade have tons of ships that come in small waves easily tanked. Some of them aggro right away, forcing you to turtle around and kill them off slowly, and others just sit there in groups waiting for you to start something. If you don't have great skills or tank or gank you can compensate with good tactics.
Examples:
Using sentry drones, non-aggro missions will aggro one of the sentries (instead of your ship), which you can then cycle with a spare until you've killed all the NPC rats. Voila! - no damage done to your ship.
You can also aggro the entire room and then run your little butt off, kiting the entire room while your drones reduce the numbers of NPCs.
And then there's the old faithful warpout. Just don't tell anybody you had to do it and they'll all think you're a level 4 god. 
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Jolliejoe
Quad Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.19 12:15:00 -
[4]
And absolutely make sure you read the mission details in the mission survival guides... This will help you setup the right resists and choose the right damage type.
Also be weary of warpscrambling frigs... Nothing worse than holding on by your teeth, hitting the warp button and not being able to do so because you are warpscrambled. Personally I ALWAYS go for killing the little warpscrambling frigs first.
Also, forget about using torps because they are useless now since they are nerfed. Most NPC rats stay way out of range anyway.
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BlondieBC
Rising Knights
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.19 13:04:00 -
[5]
500 is recommended.
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Shhaq
Dreams of Desolation
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Posted - 2008.03.19 13:38:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Shhaq on 19/03/2008 13:37:57
I do lvl 4 mission alone. My first raven have 350 dps and 350 def (in EFT with term, em and inv hardeners). Now i use RN with 383 def and 558 dps - I do missions faster ;]
More important is yours cap stability :P
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Mangus Thermopyle
Divine Retribution
Divine 0rder
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Posted - 2008.03.19 14:58:00 -
[7]
When using EFT, I try to get atleast 600 as sustained tank. 500 or even 400 will be enough most of the time, but not when you do the really tough missions or accidently get multi-spawn aggro.
But once you have 600 or more, put everything else on DPS. The higher DPS you have, the less tank you need.
Here is a decent and safe raven t1 setup that permaruns everything except the AB with a not to expensive gisti xlarge shield booster (hardeners for kin/therm rats):
High: 6 arbalest cruise, 2 tractor beams
Med: 100mn afterburner, gist ctype xlarge, 2 kinetic hardener, 1 thermal hardener, shield boost amps
Low: 3 beta PDUs, 2 BCUs
Rigs: 3 CCC
Replace everything with t2 and/or faction stuff as you get better skills and more ISK. This setup is overtanked, but better to be safe than sorry when your new to level 4 missions.
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Ulstan
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.03.19 19:46:00 -
[8]
Are these tanking figures perma tanks or just 'long enough' tanks?
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Beness
Deep Space Ventures
Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:34:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Ulstan
Are these tanking figures perma tanks or just 'long enough' tanks?
Perma. If you're just starting out, you had best be able to run that tank continuously for as long as it takes, 'cause it'll take a long time. A very long time :P
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Ulstan
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:48:00 -
[10]
It just seems that doing a 600 dps perma tank in a raven may be out of reach for lower sp players... I guess you could always just fill your lows with CFC or something but that will leave you with terrible dps.
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vostok
Suns Of Korhal
deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.03.20 00:52:00 -
[11]
Edited by: vostok on 20/03/2008 01:00:00
Originally by: Ulstan
It just seems that doing a 600 dps perma tank in a raven may be out of reach for lower sp players... I guess you could always just fill your lows with CFC or something but that will leave you with terrible dps.
I guess thats the price you pay for being a poor pilot lol, I kinda feel somebody who cant wing a mission and stay out of damages way should prob not be running them.
without loading out lows with cfc or buying stupid mods and hanging a sign saying ''I'm worth ganking'' its virtually impossible to reach a decent stable tank.
This is currently why I can use all T2 shield mods have caldari BS 5 training and have never stepped into a caldari BS let alone shield tanked a BS; I don't like the raven because it does awful dps and I'm holding out for a golem because I can rig it so it gets 40km torps and it can get away with just one cfc to run a 500 dps tank.
edit:
Missed the main point of the thread, sorry. right here goes:
5 x Capacitor Flux Coil II
1 x X-Large Shield Booster II
2 x Shield Boost Amplifier I
2 x Invulnerability Field II
1 x Photon Scattering Field II
6 x 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher
3 x Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
This is a raven fitting I planned for myself until I decided to just hold out for a golem since I have better mission running ships. you could comfortably swap the torps out but this will nerf your dps significantly, on the other hand you will have 0 dps over about 24km assuming you have level 4 skills, which is why T2 torps help since you can use javelins which have longer range.
My recommendation would be to approach mission cautiously follow what http://eve-survival.org/missions/ says well, don't try any high ranking missions until you're confident and always check eve survival until you know what your doing.
Once your a bit more confident with the setup drop down some of the flux coils to ballistic controls.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.20 03:05:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Akita T on 20/03/2008 03:10:53
__
Depends on the mission and your ship.
There's really no "mandatory minimum" tank if you know how to tackle the mission.
But if you don't, then I'd say, the more tank, the better... especially if your DPS is low.
I'd say don't even bother with less than 150 DPS output, might be unable to break most mission BS tanks, or simply take way too long.
An assault frigate with a very skilled pilot can complete most L4s, even if the DPS output is below 200 and the DPS tanked is also pretty low (but you have a decent speed and a small signature, so you can claim you have a speed-tank).
A Drake with low-ish DPS (again, below 200) but a monster tank can also complete most L4 missions (you may have trouble with Enemies Abound 1/5 and especially 5/5, and you will have trouble with the Guristas version of Vengeance).
Both above cases, missions will take a loooong time.
The higher the DPS output (and the easier the "application" of that DPS), the less tank you need.
For instance, a target-painter T2 siege launcher Raven using Javelins (and CN torps for NPCs that like to get close), with missile flight speed rigs and 3 BCSs might easily get away with a LSB-II tank in most L4s (even without using it in perma-run mode)... but a no-BCS, low-skills arby Cruise Raven might need a faction XLSB in most cases, and in some cases, it would barely be enough.
And so on and so forth.
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Avalira
Pax Minor Expiscor Pario Addo
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Posted - 2008.03.20 03:25:00 -
[13]
On the side note, never underestimate the power of gank-tank. My Abaddon only has 250 DPS tanked but does insane DPS. By being smart and selecting the right targets I don't even need to warp out. Only once did I go into hull but managed to kill enough rats for my tank to go back up again. As mentioned above, read the mission details and be smart.
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Selling prob BPC's
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dwiekaski
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.03.20 07:41:00 -
[14]
Edited by: dwiekaski on 20/03/2008 07:42:12
Originally by: Ulstan
Are these tanking figures perma tanks or just 'long enough' tanks?
350 def - sth about 8 minutes
383 - higher skills and better moduls - stable cap.
Dont use x-large shield booster on raven. You dont have stable cap and u dont see whats going on... and then u dont have cap and u die ;P
With large - yes, rats can give u more dmg than your tanking, but u have a lot of time to kill them ;)
383 perm tanking is enough for lvl 4 mission.
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Jolliejoe
Quad Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.20 09:54:00 -
[15]
what's with fitting siege launchers while torps have become useless in missioning since trinity!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.20 10:21:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Akita T on 20/03/2008 10:21:34
Originally by: Jolliejoe
what's with fitting siege launchers while torps have become useless in missioning since trinity!
Javelin torps on a ship with a couple of missile range rigs are actually quite decent in missions.
Problem is, T2 siege launchers AND missile rigs are really tough to fit alongside "some tank", CPU-wise.
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Jolliejoe
Quad Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.20 10:24:00 -
[17]
Exactly... You need the rigs to maintain some sort of Cap on a raven.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.20 10:27:00 -
[18]
Not if you're running a TP and spamming Javelins like a madman.
That was pretty much the point here... heavy gank does beat the need for a good tank, even in missions.
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Jolliejoe
Quad Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.20 10:31:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jolliejoe on 20/03/2008 10:31:13
Originally by: Akita T
Not if you're running a TP and spamming Javelins like a madman.
That was pretty much the point here... heavy gank does beat the need for a good tank, even in missions.
I wonder if you have ever done lvl 4's solo? With 10+ frigs, 10+ cruisers, 10 BS'es... It doesn't make a difference if you are killing that 1 BS 1 second earlier. You will still get in trouble because of your inability to do any damage to frigs or cruisers and the fact that most torps will not even hit because of the range. Also, even though it does take a bit longer, cruise missiles are actually able to hit frigs...
Not sure what you mean with TP.
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Ulstan
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:16:00 -
[20]
I haven't shot a cruise in frigs in ages (not counting crap like massive attack or whatever) usually my drones chew them up.
I think for most beginning players, a good perma tank is best. You can get a perma XL shield booster tank with 2 cpr and 3 BCS. Of course, with the two CPR, I think a perma L shield booster tank with CFC and one of the cap rechargers replaced with an SBA might be better.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.20 17:39:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Akita T on 20/03/2008 17:41:36
Originally by: Jolliejoe
With 10+ frigs, 10+ cruisers, 10 BS'es... It doesn't make a difference if you are killing that 1 BS 1 second earlier. You will still get in trouble because of your inability to do any damage to frigs or cruisers and the fact that most torps will not even hit because of the range. Also, even though it does take a bit longer, cruise missiles are actually able to hit frigs... Not sure what you mean with TP.
First off...
Originally by: Ulstan
I haven't shot a cruise in frigs in ages (not counting crap like massive attack or whatever) usually my drones chew them up.
...what he just said 
Second, TP = "Target Painter".
Third, Javelin Torp + full missile velocity/flight-time rigs + missile velocity implant + L5 missile flight time and speed skills + L5 Caldari BS skill = more than adequate maximum torpedo range for just about any mission.
Finally, it's not "one second earlier", it's actually "almost twice as fast" in most cases against BSs (yes, you CAN two-volley some BSs, and most of them go down in 3 volleys, especially in a CNR, instead of a regular Raven ; even easier to get that on a Golem, but the Golem gets this nasty "lack of RoF bonus" in spite of a greater alpha, and is one rig short, so max range is lower too... but gets much better TP bonuses, and tanks much easier).
A properly set-up "range+gank" Javelin torp Golem is probably the best overall mission-runner of the moment, PRECISELY because of that huge alpha.
So, let me ask you something else in return... HAVE YOU tried running L4s solo with Jav torps after the torpedo changes ?
I know people that did. And they swear by their awesomeness.
Personally, I don't fly Golems yet, don't have skills for T2 torps, and neither of those is on my "near-future" skill plan either.
___
P.S. The absolutely "most awesome" duo of the moment for L4s is LSB-II/PWNAGE/JavTorp Golem + HAM/Purger Nighthawk.
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Ulstan
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.03.20 17:49:00 -
[22]
Also, peoples DPS numbers... is thus what EFT tells you with an even 25/25/25/25 damage spread? Or just a 50/50 spread of the two damage types your rats deal?
In many cases, especially for guristas missions, the split is closer to 70/30, as a lot of the damage done is through missiles.
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Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.03.20 17:49:00 -
[23]
Yeah, I'd say it's totally all about tactics.
If I use my 1400 tempest, there are a ton of missions I can do with out ever getting into the NPC's damage range.
I can count the number of level 4 missions where I need to turn on my shield booster on one hand in that ship. The dps isn't phenomenal, it might take me 10% longer than just getting in optimal, but it serves as an example as another play style.
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Pwett
CEO, Founder, & Executor
<Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.20 18:11:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ulstan
Also, peoples DPS numbers... is thus what EFT tells you with an even 25/25/25/25 damage spread? Or just a 50/50 spread of the two damage types your rats deal?
In many cases, especially for guristas missions, the split is closer to 70/30, as a lot of the damage done is through missiles.
No idea about other people, but I use 75K/25T for "Guristas" damage profile, 60E/40T for "Bloods" damage profile, etc.
It would be pretty stupid to list "even damage spread" DPS tanked numbers for a mission-specific hardened ship, wouldn't you say so ?
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Ulstan
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:16:00 -
[25]
Quote:
No idea about other people, but I use 75K/25T for "Guristas" damage profile, 60E/40T for "Bloods" damage profile, etc.
It would be pretty stupid to list "even damage spread" DPS tanked numbers for a mission-specific hardened ship, wouldn't you say so ?
Yep. Although some people do seem to try to use omni tanks with lots of invulns. I always fit specific appropriate hardeners and try to use the DPS figures based on the damage proportions I actually wind up taking in the mission. But sometimes it's hard to know what other people are basing their 'dps tanked' number on. So many variables!
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ArdenB
Infinite Possibilities Corporation
The Colbert Nation
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Posted - 2008.03.23 22:28:00 -
[26]
Wow, I have been setting up my ships for 700-1000 DPS-tank. (EFT rat specific numbers) Really nice for semi-afk missioning but missions are sorta slow.
I will try something closer to 500-600 and see how it goes.
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DiuxDium
Clown College
Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.26 10:44:00 -
[27]
you should be able to tank at least 1100 dps of the rats primary/secondary damage type. Outputting 450+ dps is pretty much needed to avoid going insane from how long it takes to break larger BS's tanks.
I use a Domi or Ishtar on my alt depending on the mission, and it works well. Raven is probably quicker but I can't watch TV if I have to target and shoot at things.
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Hello America |
Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy
Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.28 20:55:00 -
[28]
If I could do 300dps I'd want a 600-700 dps rat specific tank.
If I could do 450dps I'd want a 500-600 dps rat specific tank.
That's just from my own personal experience. Currently I do L4s in a passive drake that does 290dps on missiles alone and tanks anywhere from 550-850 DPS depending on the rats.
/makes fart noise
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menne
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.31 21:58:00 -
[29]
hmm just messed around with eft a bit cuz the command ship is coming close and just realized that i was running l4s all the time with just 223 defense with my machariel xD most times less cuz i only use 2 hardeners for most missions. ( never tried enemies abound 5/5 though and got bad troubles with wc seprentis part while gursitas was np same as guristas extravaganza bonus np was). over all i wouldn't advise to go that low since it allways leaves you in fear of scramblers combined witht he wrong pull or trigger ... it works though when you read those mission descriptions and fit the right resists ( havent lost her in 200 missions should be proof enough xD). so judging from experience knowing what you are doing you should be perfectly fine with 400 if you dont those 5-600 mentioned will suit you better :O)
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Talio ZomB
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.04.01 07:58:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 20/03/2008 10:21:34
Originally by: Jolliejoe
what's with fitting siege launchers while torps have become useless in missioning since trinity!
Javelin torps on a ship with a couple of missile range rigs are actually quite decent in missions.
Problem is, T2 siege launchers AND missile rigs are really tough to fit alongside "some tank", CPU-wise.
I agree, I torp fit both my mish ships
cnr 45km cn torp / 67km javs
golem 42km cn torps / 63km javs
works well for every mish I have done, also fit a 100MN AB on the golem so I kill quick and get around quick (well a bit quicker really)
I wouldnt recommend torp fit to new players as it requires a lot of missles skills to make the damage count and engineering skills to tank a cnr with 7 siege or a golem with 4 siege and a 100mn ab, lol I fit 4 cn bcs so a bit of a pg squeeze
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