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Thanatoes
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Posted - 2004.04.12 15:58:00 -
[1]
Ok so my wife and I are walking down the road when a guy runs up and grabs her purse and walks away laughing at us the entire time. I don't chase him down and beat the hell out of him because it's "Illegal" so he gets to just walk away with all my wifes mone that she had in there. Meanwhile my wallet is safe because it's secure in my back pocket.
The moral of this story is, why is it legal to take peoples cargo containers WHILE YOUR RIGHT NEXT TO IT and it's not legal to shoot them for it? I think that regarless to it being secure or not you should be able to shoot anybody that is not in your corp that takes stuff from your cargo container. I assume that all the pirates will be against this as it takes away an exploit for them but it's only right.
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Haratu
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Posted - 2004.04.12 16:11:00 -
[2]
In most countries in the real world there is aneat thing called 'citizen's arrest' I recommend you check into it... the law has differing views on it depending on your country.
Perhaps it would be good to intitute something like this in eve.
As for ore thieves... there are numerous posts in the forum 'crime and punishment' about such people... to sum up the primary opinion:
Containers were originally not developed for mining, that is why secure containers were invented, if you do not use secure cans then prepare to suffer the consequences.
I don't like it, but i live with it... you should too.
I roleplay... there is this computer game called "Earth - The First Genesis" where i play a character in the early 21st century. |
Cuthbert
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Posted - 2004.04.12 20:30:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Cuthbert on 12/04/2004 20:34:14
 Quote:
Ok so my wife and I are walking down the road when a guy runs up and grabs her purse and walks away laughing at us the entire time. I don't chase him down and beat the hell out of him because it's "Illegal" so he gets to just walk away with all my wifes mone that she had in there. Meanwhile my wallet is safe because it's secure in my back pocket.
The moral of this story is, why is it legal to take peoples cargo containers WHILE YOUR RIGHT NEXT TO IT and it's not legal to shoot them for it? I think that regarless to it being secure or not you should be able to shoot anybody that is not in your corp that takes stuff from your cargo container. I assume that all the pirates will be against this as it takes away an exploit for them but it's only right.
I do agree with your point, but your analogy is false as the Eve equivalent would be someone somehow opening your cargohold and stealing the contents. To change it slightly so it's true, it would be as if you had put some luggage down on the pavement next to you and someone walked up, picked it up and ran off with it, yet it was YOU who was arrested for running after him and rugby tackling him. Arguably, it was your own fault for the theft in the first place for putting down the luggage, but you shouldn't be penalised for trying to get it back.
EDIT: Of course, that should only extend to destroying their ship. If you actually pod-kill them, then Concord should come down hard on you too.
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flummox
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Posted - 2004.04.12 20:49:00 -
[4]
i would just like to go on record that the entire crime and punishment system in EVE needs to be really looked at. there is a problem with it...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.04.13 02:32:00 -
[5]
there've been quite a few threads on this subject. while i agree that the situation should be handled differently, i don't think everything should be thrown completely in favor of the miner, either. it should be more plausible, but not neccisarily involving combat. see my idea for a possible solution to this problem here:
clicky
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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Dexter Rast
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Posted - 2004.04.13 03:50:00 -
[6]
it is simply the case that EVE IS NOT LIKE REAL LIFE !!!
if you jettison a can then it is free for anyone, those are the rules.
stuff only remains your property if it is inside your ship or inside your secure can protected by a password
jettison anything and the scavengers will be around you in a hurry,, have you every seem a corp war in the highway systems once a battleship has fallen? everyone in the area will swoop onto a can to loot it, very rarely does the guy who killed the other guy get any of the loot.. does that sound fair? no,, but thats just the way it is.
imagine this, i jettison a can at a gate, inside it i leave 200 megacyte, a guy comes along and peers into my can while i sit 50km away in a battleship, i also have a freind sitting with an indy next to the gate,
the guy picks up the mega and that gives me free licence to blow him out of space, my freind then picks up my mega and the unfortunate guys modules, wash, rince and repeat
that above scenario is proof itself that what is jettisoned should remain free for anyone to pick up
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meowcat
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Posted - 2004.04.13 11:12:00 -
[7]
jetĀtiĀson
tr.v. jetĀtiĀsoned, jetĀtiĀsonĀing, jetĀtiĀsons
Definition:
To discard (something) as unwanted or burdensome
nuff said
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.04.13 11:29:00 -
[8]
*sigh*
Linkage
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.04.13 11:39:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Etoile Chercheur on 13/04/2004 11:40:47
Quote:
jetĀtiĀson
tr.v. jetĀtiĀsoned, jetĀtiĀsonĀing, jetĀtiĀsons
Definition:
To discard (something) as unwanted or burdensome
nuff said
so, the real solution to the problem would be to rename the jettison can to something that's more "jet-can mining" friendly like... "placement canister" or something like that?
the lable for the canister doesn't set in stone the way things should be. people are trying to come up with ideas for a more plausible way that this could be handled. this is a dynamic and changing game, and this forum are for ideas for changes. unless you have something constructive to comment about the thread's subject, changes to the way ore-theft is handled, then i suggest you have nothing to say that's of anyone's interest to those actually contributing to this idea. push off.
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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meowcat
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Posted - 2004.04.13 12:02:00 -
[10]
Quote:
blah-blah... yadd-yadaa-yadda ...interest to those actually contributing to this idea. push off.
I'm entitled to an opinion, as are you. There's no need to tell me to 'push off'.
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.04.13 12:04:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Quote:
blah-blah... yadd-yadaa-yadda ...interest to those actually contributing to this idea. push off.
I'm entitled to an opinion, as are you. There's no need to tell me to 'push off'.
this isn't a forum to debate contradicting viewpoints. this is a forum for contributing to ideas.
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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meowcat
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Posted - 2004.04.13 12:18:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
blah-blah... yadd-yadaa-yadda ...interest to those actually contributing to this idea. push off.
I'm entitled to an opinion, as are you. There's no need to tell me to 'push off'.
this isn't a forum to debate contradicting viewpoints. this is a forum for contributing to ideas.
I am contributing to this idea by making my point that it's a frigging stupid idea, for the following perfectly valid reasons:
(I have the right to voice these opinions because otherwise they might implement the above daft idea)
oh, and to clarify, i'm not an ore-thief, i'm a newbie on day 5 of my trial.
If they implement some sort of jettison change, to support these huge mining operations they might as well reverse the no-anchoring in 0.8+ rule, because there will be bugger all decent ore left for the little folks in high security areas - which as far as i can see was the whole point of the anchoring change.
Take your mining operation to a 0.7, and buy some secure containers.
Keep the game playable - it's hard enough for us newbies as it is
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2004.04.13 12:21:00 -
[13]
On the contrary, if we think an idea is crap, we are more then entitled to inform you of our opinion.
That said, can-mining is inventive, but risky. Learn to accept that risk, or mine into a cheap secure container in lower security space, whilst a buddy in an industrial next to it immediately scoops up the ore.
Problem solved.
(Criminal flagging like you want will be in Shiva, msot likely. It will also ensue in much hilarity as people discover they can bait others into opening cans and shoot the poo out of them afterwards.)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2004.04.13 13:16:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Ok so my wife and I are walking down the road when a guy runs up and grabs her purse and walks away laughing at us the entire time. I don't chase him down and beat the hell out of him because it's "Illegal" so he gets to just walk away with all my wifes mone that she had in there. Meanwhile my wallet is safe because it's secure in my back pocket.
The moral of this story is, why is it legal to take peoples cargo containers WHILE YOUR RIGHT NEXT TO IT and it's not legal to shoot them for it? I think that regarless to it being secure or not you should be able to shoot anybody that is not in your corp that takes stuff from your cargo container. I assume that all the pirates will be against this as it takes away an exploit for them but it's only right.
Acctually thats wrong. In your analogy when related to what you do in eve, the case would be that as your walking down the street your wife throws her purse in a bin and leaves it there. Somone comes along and lifts it and walks off. They now own it becuase you threw it away and they have claimed it.
That is what jettisoned cans are basically. If you dont like ore thieves just use secure cans. No they arent as good as jettisoned ones but thats life.
Either take the risk with the bigger can or dont, next you'll be expecting the cans to fly back to base for you and drop the ore off.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Cerenity
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Posted - 2004.04.13 14:45:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Cerenity on 13/04/2004 14:47:00
Actually, in my opinion a more correct analogy would be that she placed her purse somewhere temporarily with intent on keeping it (example, on the ground), for some reason she didn't have space in her handbag. So while she's fixing her handbag, someone walks by and takes her purse.
The miner version. Having not enough space for the ore, the miner creates a temporary landing zone for his/her ore. His/her intent is to pick it up and transport it, still being his/her possession. While mining, someone walks by and taks the ore from the can.
Morale:
Do you lose possession of something as soon as you lift something out of your pocket and you're not touching it? If you dropped your keys to your house, and I pick them up, the quickest guy suddenly owns the keys to your house? Even if the intent that you put it on the ground counts, so does the intent to keep what you put on the ground.
The word is "jettisoned" but the intent is to create a temporary unsafe transaction. The person who steals the purse/ore is a thief, but you are to blame that you chose such an insecure way for a valuable transaction.
Sum:
Use secure cans or keep an eye out for thieves. The shame is the lack of countermeasure a victim can utilize. You can scream for CONCORD/Police, but in EVE you're not allowed to do anything to the thief. Instead the thieves can wave their new fattened wallets to the police and they won't bother. THAT has to be settled, before they can introduce thieving into ANY game, imho.
Also, if the name Jettison is of importance, rename the can to "Property of <your name>", I'm sure it won't make any differance to the thief, nor to the lack of morale in the act.
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Carvix
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Posted - 2004.04.13 15:28:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Carvix on 13/04/2004 15:38:17
I agree with the above. My question is what do you do when 3 haulers pop in at the same time, take your stuff, and leave before the Hauler that you have working for you can get back from the station that he is taking ore to from the temp. can
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Dexter Rast
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Posted - 2004.04.13 16:02:00 -
[17]
Cerenity, although i can see your point to a cxertain degree, you are comparin EVE to real life again, sure if someone steals your possesion in real life then the police will treat you as the victim, but to jettison and item in EVE means that you simply dont want it, end of storey.
if you are not allowed to take jettisoned cans then the battleship miners would be moved back into 1.0 and 0.9 systems again, and the crap part is you would not be able to touch them,
bye bye new players since they would have to deal with NPC`s in order to mine, not much chance for them to prgress in the game at their own pace..
Bottom line is, jettison something be prepared to loose it, possession is 100% ownership rights so keep it in your hold or in a secure can
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Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.04.13 18:09:00 -
[18]
Quote:
I am contributing to this idea by making my point that it's a frigging stupid idea
since you're big on touting definitions...
conĀtribĀute - To give or supply in common with others; give to a common fund or for a common purpose.
the purpose of this thread was to explore ideas for making can-theft more plausible. since you have nothing to say on the subject other than that you think the idea is "stupid", i hardly see how you're contributing.
i myself would like to see a non-beligerant, skill-based defense against can-theft. there would also be a non-beligerant, skill based counter measure to it. have lock encryption and decryption skills for common jet cans would achieve this. for once, the success of the miner or thief would be based on skills, and not completely in favor of the ore theif. both of these skills would be very high in Rank, and would entail quite a sacrifice on part of the miner or thief.
except for some team-mining i was involved in where we out-witted an ore-thief by having a constant, never-ending stream of haulers picking up our ore and mining into one can only (which we kept open with some odd bit of junk), i've never fallen victim to ore theft. i pick my systems carefully, and keep an eye on local, ready to haul at a moment's notice.
my problem with ore-theft as it is, is that that's it's just silly. miners have ZERO chance of retaliation. it's not that i'm too lazy to use secure cans. it's not that i'm a whiney carebear that pouts and stamps his foot when he gets his ore swiped. that doesn't happen to me. (yet *knocks on wood*) i just have a problem with how implausible the current setup is.
note: oretheft is rare enough that i don't really believe that it has any real impact on .8+ mining. people will mine regardless. the anchor laws in place were to keep corps from permanently setting up at belts that were intended for the newer players. you can still use secure cans, regardless. they just can't be anchored, and have to be scooped and re-jettisoned once every couple of hours.
this was also to prevent further can-spam at gates and stations in high-sec space. eventually, all current cans will be unanchored from those systems.
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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Baggam
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Posted - 2004.04.13 20:13:00 -
[19]
... Use Secure Can's!
Not doing so is silly ;)
Although, it would be interesting to allow passwords onto normal cans which pirates can "hack" if they have a hacking skill, and it takes say 4x longer to hack a secure can, with each skill level reducing time by 10%
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.04.13 21:48:00 -
[20]
The fact that people can ore theft in .5 space and higher give corps more incentive to leave high sec space and go to low sec space where they belong.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.04.13 22:13:00 -
[21]
Use secure cans.
Very simple. You dont need to be a rocket scientist.
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Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.04.13 22:19:00 -
[22]
Quote:
The fact that people can ore theft in .5 space and higher give corps more incentive to leave high sec space and go to low sec space where they belong.
belong? who says corps belong anywhere? 1.0 starting-point systems are supposed to be for newbies, fine. but all corps should be in .4 or worse? not to sure about that...
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.04.13 22:24:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Use secure cans.
Very simple. You dont need to be a rocket scientist.
you try mining a belt full of ore 3900mĶ at a time after setting up all the cans so they're at least 5000m from any asteroid and from each other! now that you might need to be rocket scientist to achieve. especially is those "exploded" belts...
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.04.14 09:15:00 -
[24]
Yes I've tried that. I fill up a few cans then go get my indy to haul it back to station. Its very easy and very safe. And its a very good alternative to WHINING ON THE FORUMS FOR ABSOLUTLY NO REASON BUT GREED AND LAZINESS.
So yea, have a cookie.
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Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.04.14 10:02:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Yes I've tried that. I fill up a few cans then go get my indy to haul it back to station. Its very easy and very safe. And its a very good alternative to WHINING ON THE FORUMS FOR ABSOLUTLY NO REASON BUT GREED AND LAZINESS.
So yea, have a cookie.
the rate at which it's possible to mine with jet cans so far outpaces using even the largest secure containers, makes mining any other way, even with the occasional occurence of ore snatching, completely laughable. stuff your cookie.
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2004.04.14 11:46:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Wild Rho on 14/04/2004 11:47:33
I gotta agree with viceroy here. Sounds like your too lazy and too greedy to take the time to secure your goods. If you get your ore stolen in high sec space its your own fault.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.04.14 12:32:00 -
[27]
Use secure cans, yes.
Here comes the idea:
Make it a crime to pick stuff up from a regular can (not a jettison), and have the regular cans able to anchor closer than 5km away from each other.
And make jet cans hold at most 10k m3.
-problem solved-
While people think mining should have an inbuilt risk, that agents have kill missions (limited risk), and that piracy certainly have a risk, why do some people think ore theft should be risk free?
It is at the moment.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Tsual
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Posted - 2004.04.14 13:05:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Tsual on 14/04/2004 13:06:12
About Ore thieves:
I wonder whether we will sit here in ten years - supposing the game will stay online that long - and will discuss the same problem, with the same arguments, in the same old manner heading the same direction...towards the flamepit.
--------------------------------------
Tsual - Miner from faith, frigat junky for life.
Ritual of the Qua'nadhar. |
Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.04.14 13:18:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Edited by: Tsual on 14/04/2004 13:06:12
About Ore thieves:
I wonder whether we will sit here in ten years - supposing the game will stay online that long - and will discuss the same problem, with the same arguments, in the same old manner heading the same direction...towards the flamepit.
duely noted, Tsual. i suppose i have better things to do than this.
btw, Wild Rho, i have never been in favor of eliminating ore-theft, and take great care to make sure i don't fall victim to it, making me far from lazy. however, i do think it should be made more plausible and more fun for all concerned. that is the limit of my objection to the current setup.
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.04.14 13:24:00 -
[30]
Thanatoes...
Your analogy of the real life situation is a little messed up dude. Here is why.
First off, jettisoned cans are not ment to be ore cans...thats just the way it is. Unlike a purse which was designed to hold valuables close to your side.
Second, jettisoned cans are considered 'trash cans'. In your real life anology your wife is holding her purse which is OBVIOUSLY a personal item that hold valuables...such is the common usage of purses...
A better analogy would be...
You and your wife are walking down the street. Your wife has a garbage bag for a purse. She has been putting loads of money in it and now she stop at the back, puts her purse on the sidewalk and moves over to the moneydispenser to get more money to put in her purse...
Someone walks by and takes the 'purse' with him. You become inraged and shout all sort of insulting remarks at this person..... who took a garbage bag sitting on the sidewalk.
so there you have it!
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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