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Avel Kereka
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.03.20 20:43:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Evanda Char
Darius, we're not looking at it from the perspective of "if they're not from the Republic, we don't care".
We're looking at it from the perspective of "If they're from the Republic, then even under Amarr law, Rinmumi is guilty of ten thousand counts of abduction, assault, cruel and unusal punishment, smuggling, and immigration violations, while Mr Agmarn is, at best guilty of conspiracy in all the above, and under Amarr law, I imagine he's guilty of conspiracy to receive stolen property, as well.
To Mr Reeth and Merdaneth, if I read the Scripture correctly, am I right in thinking that there are some interpretations that call for justice to be proportional to the crime? The sort of action taken by Brother Joshua which calls for "an eye for an eye"?
There were 10,000 people suffering and trapped on those Bestowers.
Mr Rinmumi only has two eyes.
Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but according to scriptures anyone who isn't a citizen in the empire is a slave, or a future slave. Therefore, treating those who died as full citizens of our holy empire is patently ridiculous. There is a sliding scale of justice, as some of my compatriots pointed out, and the only crime here which can be persecuted under religious law is the death of ten thousand slaves. Nothing else.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:40:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Avel Kereka
There is a sliding scale of justice, as some of my compatriots pointed out, and the only crime here which can be persecuted under religious law is the death of ten thousand slaves. Nothing else.
Oh there is more. Knowingly breaking an Imperial Edict is at the top of my list. The death of 10.000 slaves is but a speck of dust compared to that.
______________________________________________
-You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Avel Kereka
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:20:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Oh there is more. Knowingly breaking an Imperial Edict is at the top of my list. The death of 10.000 slaves is but a speck of dust compared to that.
I believe that falls under secular law, since edicts can be changed as political circumstances dictate.
 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Nomakai Delateriel
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.03.21 00:25:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Avel Kereka
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Oh there is more. Knowingly breaking an Imperial Edict is at the top of my list. The death of 10.000 slaves is but a speck of dust compared to that.
I believe that falls under secular law, since edicts can be changed as political circumstances dictate.
This isn't a law created by some bureaucrat or even some holder on a backwater planet in the Bleaklands.
The Emperors words are law and the Emperors words are the words of Gods representative. As such they are both religious and secular.
Never forget that.
______________________________________________
-You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Merdaneth
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Posted - 2008.03.21 01:07:00 -
[35]
Let us not exaggerate this matter, however serious it is. 10,000 slaves did not die, only a few hundred did, possibly as the result of an act of willfull neglect on the part of a single trader.
This pales to the hundred of thousands of slaves were killed by the Defiants a few days ago. The odds that there were Republic citizens, if any, among those slaves are much higher purely by numbers alone. If the Defiant's attack did not warrant questions by Electus Matari (and others) about the nationality of the slaves, then certainly this matter does not warrant it.
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Avel Kereka
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Posted - 2008.03.21 01:44:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Avel Kereka
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Oh there is more. Knowingly breaking an Imperial Edict is at the top of my list. The death of 10.000 slaves is but a speck of dust compared to that.
I believe that falls under secular law, since edicts can be changed as political circumstances dictate.
This isn't a law created by some bureaucrat or even some holder on a backwater planet in the Bleaklands.
The Emperors words are law and the Emperors words are the words of Gods representative. As such they are both religious and secular.
Never forget that.
I hasten to remind you of Zaragram the Mad and the ensuing clean-up operation the clergy had to undertake because of such delusions. Being intimate with the more conservative (and militaristic) elements of the Empire as I am, I can say we often shoot ourselves in the foot by misplacing our religious zeal. Let me explain: while the Emperor is of holy flesh, it is more his position that deserves awe and allegiance, for if the individual in that position abuses his power he is destroyed for not fulfilling his role, and replaced by another.
Now, all of this is quite secondary to the original point--secular or otherwise there is a standing edict and it should not be crossed, I agree. I was simply pointing out the separation between the secular and the religious, for woe betide the Emperor who makes edicts that contradict God's word.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.03.21 04:12:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Let us not exaggerate this matter, however serious it is. 10,000 slaves did not die, only a few hundred did, possibly as the result of an act of willfull neglect on the part of a single trader.
This pales to the hundred of thousands of slaves were killed by the Defiants a few days ago. The odds that there were Republic citizens, if any, among those slaves are much higher purely by numbers alone. If the Defiant's attack did not warrant questions by Electus Matari (and others) about the nationality of the slaves, then certainly this matter does not warrant it.
Link? |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.03.21 04:43:00 -
[38]
If the Amarr are so concerned about the well being of the people they hold in slavery then they should stop using them as a shield for their military assets.
A simple analogy. I burst into a slaver compounds command centre. The slaver is holding a young Matari woman in front of him with a hand laser pressed to her head. If I let him go thousands of other slaves will suffer at his hands and he will probably kill his hostage anyway. So I go for the mouth shot, sever the brain from the body before the signal to pull the trigger can reach his hand. Sometimes it works, the woman is saved as are thousands of others. Sometimes not but the majority are saved rather than all lost.
If the slavers would stop hiding behind our women and children then none of us would have to be concerned about those sad and heart breaking losses.
That is not the subject at hand, what is at hand is the matter of slavers leaving innocent people to die over a gambling debt. Another fine example of life in the vicious, morally bankrupt, hypocritical and ethically worthless Amarr Empire.
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Saraith Narr
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Posted - 2008.03.21 08:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Another fine example of life in the vicious, morally bankrupt, hypocritical and ethically worthless Amarr Empire.
The actions of these two Amarrians, repellent as they may be, does not even begin to compare to the barbarity displayed by the Matari "citizens" on Pator. Rioting and killing over an event which itself left thousands of Matari dead for no good reason at all does not suggest to me an ethically sound society.
As the Theology Council has stated, these traders have done wrong, they will be punished. The Amarr Empire does things like this: enforces its laws, even when it is not Amarrians themselves that have been put in harms way.
A lesson the "Republic" could well learn.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Merdaneth
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Posted - 2008.03.21 10:17:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Link?
Please read the original message linked by Mrs. Rhiannon carefully pilot Reeth:
"People of all ages and gender crammed in together, without food or water, heat or light. All of them were showing signs of dehydration and starvation, and many had already died. Onboard one of the ships, the dead had been piled up in one cargo compartment, two hundred or so naked bodies in the final stages of emaciation."
Confirmed dead: two hundred or so. Confirmed survivors taken in by the Sisters of EVE: the rest.
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
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Posted - 2008.03.21 10:42:00 -
[41]
Comparing this event to people dead on terrorist attacks on military targets speaks of completely having missed the point of my inquiry.
As a free hint: this is not about "see! slavery is evil!" or "oh no, people are actually dying in the Amarr Empire, who would have believed!"
Elsebeth Rhiannon
--
Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.03.21 11:02:00 -
[42]
Perhaps the Amarrians would do well to remember these matters are of public record and none of us are fools. There were not thousands left dead due to riots on Pator. The rioting was spread over every system of the Republic, many worlds. Thousands were reported injured across all Republic regions. Seven people in the entire Republic were reported dead.
Spread over such a large area and so many people we could consider these regretable riots to be quite minor. Youthful exuberance one might say, not uncommon with a proud warrior people such as ours.
When we then turn to the matter at hand we see two hundred dead simply for being locked in a cargo hold and starved over an unpaid gambling debt. That means in one incident two gambling slavers have killed in cold blood more than twenty eight times the number of people that died in a day of rioting across the entire Republic.
Much as I am loath to regard our people in terms of statistics if this august body does wish to make these comparisons then let us stick to the facts. They show quite clearly that the Amarrians are once again the barbarians.
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Drauqhk Shathet
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.03.21 12:25:00 -
[43]
How does one respond to an event such as this?
In the common course of events, accidents and natural disasters occur. Death and injury and suffering enjoin our collective sympathy and enlist our aid.
But this was no accident, no tragedy of natural cause.
In a contest of politics or ideology, even one in which violence ensues, there is an expectation of common behaviors beyond which is atrocity, reviled by all despite differences of philosophy. Cruelty and barbarism have their limits even in the cauldron of war.
But this was no act of war, no conflict laid waste to these lives.
Apathy engendered by greed was the root of this tragic and pointless loss. Two men, and their utter disregard for anything other than their own petty squabble cast away lives as if they had no more consequence than the dust we cast from our homes.
I say that into the dust of these ruined lives we draw a line and say no more.
We can argue that the road to the salvation of a man's soul can be had only through freedom or through slavery, and on that we do and fiercely, but we all should agree that those very souls have a value far greater than we have seen them accorded by these creatures who call themselves Amaar.
I would entreat the honorable Amaar that I know to exist, act on simple conscience and cast these men out and return those abused people to their homeland, otherwise you stand revealed and reviled to be no different from the vermin who caused this horror.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are |
Saraith Narr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.03.21 17:39:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Comparing this event to people dead on terrorist attacks on military targets speaks of completely having missed the point of my inquiry.
When you allow dogs to share your pulpit, we cannot hear you over the barking.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2008.03.21 18:16:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Link?
Please read the original message linked by Mrs. Rhiannon carefully pilot Reeth:
"People of all ages and gender crammed in together, without food or water, heat or light. All of them were showing signs of dehydration and starvation, and many had already died. Onboard one of the ships, the dead had been piled up in one cargo compartment, two hundred or so naked bodies in the final stages of emaciation."
Confirmed dead: two hundred or so. Confirmed survivors taken in by the Sisters of EVE: the rest.
Sorry, I meant I wanted a link to the news story about the Defiants. I can't seem to find it. |
Merdaneth
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Posted - 2008.03.22 11:23:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Sorry, I meant I wanted a link to the news story about the Defiants. I can't seem to find it.
The Interstellar News Service indeed has no easily reachable archive, which makes missing news easy. I had to do an exhausting manual search to uncover the item in question
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Mr Reeth
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.03.22 13:26:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Sorry, I meant I wanted a link to the news story about the Defiants. I can't seem to find it.
The Interstellar News Service indeed has no easily reachable archive, which makes missing news easy. I had to do an exhausting manual search to uncover the item in question
Thank you sir. |
Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.03.25 23:40:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Originally by: Darina Rea
It's not an accident however. The reference clearly states that both parties, unwilling to accept the responsibility of the slaves simply decided to point the blame at each other and ignore the 10000 slaves in the freighter completely. Human neglect can't be blamed on malfunctioning technology.
Right, itĘs not an accident. This is a homicide case. We have seen in recent news what happened to an Heir who abused too many commoners. What do you think will happen to the commoners who abused too many slaves? If you know anything about Amarrian laws you know that these two have violated the very words of our late Emperor. And that is something we do not tolerate.
Apparently your masters disagree with you, or perhaps you know nothing about Amarrian laws. The words of the Theology Council only underline what we already know: despite the propaganda and lies spewed by the likes of the SPCA, PIE, and others, there is no Empire policy condemning even the most blatantly obvious cases of mistreatment of slaves. At worst, the wholesale slaughter of slaves is viewed as merely 'wasteful', but nothing of real consequence.
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Becq Starforged
proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services
At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today! |
Tobias Creed
Draconian Toymaker Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.26 01:57:00 -
[49]
I knew this was true before I was brought to the republic. I knew then that I, and my kin, had no worth to the empire beyond our price. And yet I have hoped for change. But after reading the words of the Theology Council, I do not know if there is still room in my heart for hope. They told me what I knew all along: That according to Amarr law, as it will be enforced, slaves are not people. This is a message the council is sending to all it's citizens: "You will not be punished for negligence or abuse. You can do what you want with your slaves. They aren't people." They don't care for our lives, and they certainly don't seem to give a damn about our souls.
The last spot of hope left in me wishes to see the Amarr populace denounce the Theology council for this, wants to see real change. but I very much doubt that will come to pass.
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CCP has determined that some alliances were gaining an unfair advantage through the ability of their players to log in. They responded by nerfing boot.ini |
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