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Request for further information to Amarr Empire, Sisters of Eve

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Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.19 19:47:00 - [1] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 19/03/2008 19:47:45 Reference. Quote: She added that she hoped the survivors would be repatriated to the Minmatar Republic once they were fit enough to travel. Repatriated implies the origin of these people was in the Minmatar Republic. While, as the newspiece states, "Slaving is legal in the Empire", kidnapping Republic residents to slavery certainly is not legal. I would like to ask, 1) the Sisters of Eve, to please release exact information on the origin of these slaves, and 2) officials of the Amarr Empire for a comment on this incident. Thank you. Elsebeth Rhiannon Member of the Sebiestor Tribe Citizen of the Republic (EDIT: URLified.) -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Mr Reeth The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.03.19 21:17:00 - [2] IÆm not an official but that never stopped me from speaking my mind before. Someone needs to pay for this crime. Someone will pay for this crime. If the TC canÆt find anyone at fault for this then those traders better have enough isk to hire damn good mercs.
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.19 23:07:00 - [3] Also, a note to any Holder who finds himself in this position in future. Rather than stoop to inflicting this sort of suffering, or even murder, contact Electus Matari. We will gladly take your slaves away. We will be discrete, speedy and we do not charge. Whether for reasons of debt or reasons of conscience, if you want to release your slaves, we have the facilities to care for them. And no one need know. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Merdaneth PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:28:00 - [4] Officials of Amarr have already given comments on this incident. A spokesman of the Theology Council has clearly confirmed that the well-being of slaves in the Empire is protected by laws and regulations, and that the penalties for transgression of those laws and regulations are high. The spokesman also suggested that if they are presented with a case, they will take action as appropriate. Unfortunate incidents like this occur. Matari freighters can also break down mid-space, their poorly designed comm devices malfunctions from poor maintenance, resulting in similar scenes. This is not about slavery, this is about an accident that caused suffering. Traders with poor reputations can be found anywhere. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:48:00 - [5] Rinmumi in this case evidently is unable to meet his "debts", even to the point of shipping the poor souls he had chosen to gamble with, and who were already too abused to count as fulfilling his repugnant bargain when he made the bet. So it looks suspiciously like he was simply dumping his slaves to save himself the expense of caring for or moving them. Edophia Agmarn likewise denies that they are any property of his. So, in this case or any other, like or unlike it, I would very much like to see these people get the care and shelter they need, and am both willing and able to provide it. Human beings deserve better than to be left in a lost property office. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Darina Rea Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:51:00 - [6] It's not an accident however. The reference clearly states that both parties, unwilling to accept the responsibility of the slaves simply decided to point the blame at each other and ignore the 10000 slaves in the freighter completely. Human neglect can't be blamed on malfunctioning technology. _________ Time is on our side.
Garion Avarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.03.20 03:20:00 - [7] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Repatriated implies the origin of these people was in the Minmatar Republic. And it was. If they were not born there, their fathers, or their father's fathers, and so forth. Repatriation could, I would say, in a more general sense refer to returning one to their homeland, regardless of if they were born there -- and would you not maintain that the areas controlled by the Rebublic are the homeland of all Matari, be they free or slave? I do not think that the reporter's words were meant to mean that these unfortunate souls had been taken from the Republic -- though it is hardly news that such things do happen, it is certainly illegal by Amarr law, and the finding of such a group so terrible an interstellar incident that I think such a fact would have been mentioned more overtly if it were the case. Regardless, Amarr law was broken, there will be an investigation, and it shall be found if laws regarding the treatment of slaves were all that were broken . . . or if there were others. I am, of course, not an Amarr government official, nor am I any longer a practicing member of the Amarr legal establishment, so I can make no official comment -- but I can comment where officials might not be allowed to by politics, so I offer my conclusions and analysis of the situation -- and the advice that simply waiting to see if more will be revealed is likely the best course now. ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Pezzle Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.20 05:20:00 - [8] It is entirely possible some aspects of this story were exaggerated or misreported. The Servant Sisters of Eve are not authoritative figures within the Empire. Sister Herrie Tierremont represents herself and her own objectives. Whatever the situation is I have full confidence the Theology Council will punish any transgressions. This is not the place to ask anything of the Council, if you had the right. Attend to your own matters at home and rest assured we will attend to ours.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.20 07:31:00 - [9] Amarr authorities have indeed shortly commented on the incident, but the question of the origin of these people remains. "A trader of poor reputation" -- a trader with slaveraiders, perhaps? I agree, naturally, that suffering is suffering, and I certainly welcome these people to the Republic regardless of whether they come home for the first or the second time. Like Commander Char pointed out, there are cheap and discrete alternatives to neglect and abuse. But the question remains: were there Republic citizens aboard those ships? Elsebeth Rhiannon -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.20 08:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Merdaneth This is not about slavery, this is about an accident that caused suffering. Traders with poor reputations can be found anywhere. I would go further and say that this is also about the evils of gambling. It clearly demonstrates how gambling can lead to an abandonment of one's responsibilities. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Mr Reeth The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.03.20 08:47:00 - [11] Originally by: Darina Rea It's not an accident however. The reference clearly states that both parties, unwilling to accept the responsibility of the slaves simply decided to point the blame at each other and ignore the 10000 slaves in the freighter completely. Human neglect can't be blamed on malfunctioning technology. Right, itÆs not an accident. This is a homicide case. We have seen in recent news what happened to an Heir who abused too many commoners. What do you think will happen to the commoners who abused too many slaves? If you know anything about Amarrian laws you know that these two have violated the very words of our late Emperor. And that is something we do not tolerate. Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Amarr authorities have indeed shortly commented on the incident, but the question of the origin of these people remains. "A trader of poor reputation" -- a trader with slaveraiders, perhaps? I agree, naturally, that suffering is suffering, and I certainly welcome these people to the Republic regardless of whether they come home for the first or the second time. Like Commander Char pointed out, there are cheap and discrete alternatives to neglect and abuse. But the question remains: were there Republic citizens aboard those ships? Elsebeth Rhiannon The amount of Republic citizens enslaved in the Empire makes up a statistically insignificant portion of the slave population. The only reason to buy slaves from a rogue slaver and risk the wrath of the law is because they are a slightly cheaper. Most Amarrians wonÆt take that risk to save a little money. Most slave raids in republic space are conducted by the outlaw organizations, Angels, Blooders, Sansha etc. But if you were going to look for Republic citizens anywhere in Empire, it would be good to start with the stables of murderous rogues like these two.
Amarth Thargan Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.03.20 10:27:00 - [12] We'll I'm just a dumb minner and all, well that is what i expect most "decent" people to think of me. More to the point, why debate the technicalities of this event. Regardless of one moral or religious opinion, duties, customs or whatever neglect of any living being should be severly punished. Random killing is bad enough, letting someone suffer till they die of starvation because of a trade-off that isn't to the parties liking is sickening. I only recently earned enough cash to buy my own proper ship, but i'm more than willing to hand some of that's left to help those poor sods regardless of what their "origin" was, is or should have been. I've also dully noted the names of the individuals involved. These are my thoughts about it and they are probably not much worth and totally beside the point in the eyes of the "high and mighty".
Darius Shakor Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:19:00 - [13] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon But the question remains: were there Republic citizens aboard those ships? Elsebeth, I am surprised you would view them in such black and white contrast and I think you are reading too much into the news report. To me it simply reads that the Sisters wish for these people to be sent to the Republic where they rightfully belong. Ignore any claims the Amarr might have to them in their own minds. They have no rightful claim over the lives of others. Originally from the Republic or not, they belong here. ------ Mirkur Draug'Tyr :: Recruitment
Merdaneth PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:21:00 - [14] Originally by: Darina Rea It's not an accident however. The reference clearly states that both parties, unwilling to accept the responsibility of the slaves simply decided to point the blame at each other and ignore the 10000 slaves in the freighter completely. Human neglect can't be blamed on malfunctioning technology. Technology usually malfunctions because of human neglect. Human neglect can get people killed, without regard for their status as slaves or citizens. If the trader had abandoned tourists instead of slaves in his Bestower, the results would have been exactly the same. As I said before, this is not about slavery, this is about a stupid and morally stunted trader. There is simply no need for the Sisters of Eve or any pod pilot organization to concern itself with this matter. The Empire has laws to deal with these kinds of things. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon But the question remains: were there Republic citizens aboard those ships? Elsebeth Rhiannon Is this event somehow more or less tragic depending on the legal status of those trapped in the Bestowers? I think it is pretty cold-hearted of you to try and turn this into a political issue while some of the bodies haven't even passed into rigor mortis. If this is nothing more than an opportunity for political gain to you, then please leave your false sympathy at home. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:28:00 - [16] Darius, we're not looking at it from the perspective of "if they're not from the Republic, we don't care". We're looking at it from the perspective of "If they're from the Republic, then even under Amarr law, Rinmumi is guilty of ten thousand counts of abduction, assault, cruel and unusal punishment, smuggling, and immigration violations, while Mr Agmarn is, at best guilty of conspiracy in all the above, and under Amarr law, I imagine he's guilty of conspiracy to receive stolen property, as well. To Mr Reeth and Merdaneth, if I read the Scripture correctly, am I right in thinking that there are some interpretations that call for justice to be proportional to the crime? The sort of action taken by Brother Joshua which calls for "an eye for an eye"? There were 10,000 people suffering and trapped on those Bestowers. Mr Rinmumi only has two eyes. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:35:00 - [17] Originally by: Darius Shakor Originally from the Republic or not, they belong here. Oh, I do agree with that. Like I said, they should be welcome home regardless of whether it is their first or second time here. How heartless do you still believe me, Darius, that you need to stress this to me? In any case, I cannot see a problem there even taking into account Amarr law. Leaving people to starve like that is pretty much an indication that their "owners" by the Amarr law do not want them, anyway. They were renounced by both possible holders and transferred to the care of the station authorities, who in turn placed in the care of the Servant Sisters of Eve, who now wish to give them safe passage home. Should be clear and I see no reason why we should not assist the good Sisters with the practicalities of the transport without any harassment from local authorities or paramilitaries. The question (that still remains) about the possible involvement of illegal slavetrade of Republic citizens in this is not about whether they should be allowed to come here or not. It is a separate issue completely. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:37:00 - [18] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/03/2008 11:37:23 Originally by: Evanda Char Darius, we're not looking at it from the perspective of "if they're not from the Republic, we don't care". If they're not from the Republic, it's none of your business. And until there's unequivocal evidence that they are from the Republic, we shall assume that they are not. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Darius Shakor Originally from the Republic or not, they belong here. Oh, I do agree with that. Like I said, they should be welcome home regardless of whether it is their first or second time here. How heartless do you still believe me, Darius, that you need to stress this to me? In any case, I cannot see a problem there even taking into account Amarr law. Leaving people to starve like that is pretty much an indication that their "owners" by the Amarr law do not want them, anyway. They were renounced by both possible holders and transferred to the care of the station authorities, who in turn placed in the care of the Servant Sisters of Eve, who now wish to give them safe passage home. Should be clear and I see no reason why we should not assist the good Sisters with the practicalities of the transport without any harassment from local authorities or paramilitaries. The question (that still remains) about the possible involvement of illegal slavetrade of Republic citizens in this is not about whether they should be allowed to come here or not. It is a separate issue completely. Elsebeth This isn't an issue for the Servant Sisters. If the slaves have been abandoned, they should either be passed to the SPCS or to the liege of the merchants. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:44:00 - [20] I do not claim expertise in Amarr law, but I think that it is not your call to whom to pass the care of abandoned slaves, Rodj Blake, but the call of whatever authority that has the charge of them. In this case, the legal station authorities decided to call in the Servant Sisters of Eve. Elsebeth Rhiannon -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:59:00 - [21] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/03/2008 12:00:51 Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I do not claim expertise in Amarr law, but I think that it is not your call to whom to pass the care of abandoned slaves, Rodj Blake, but the call of whatever authority that has the charge of them. In this case, the legal station authorities decided to call in the Servant Sisters of Eve. Elsebeth Rhiannon The Sisters were called in to assist with the healthcare of the slaves, not to take over custodianship of them. As the Theology Council spokesman said, it's not for the Sisters of Eve to tell the Empire what the Laws say. It's not up to you either. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:05:00 - [22] Fortunately for you the Theology Council has precious little means to shut me up, so I can continue giving advice. I do stick to my interpretation of the law for now, until more knowledgable and/or unbiased views change it, or some further information surfaces. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Darius Shakor Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:22:00 - [23] Eva, Else, now you are reading too much into me too. I was simply saying that I think you are looking too hard at the words in the news and that there should be no distinction anyway. They are Matari, Republic or not. And that is what the Sisters mean by 'repatriation'. As in returned to their own kind. So I am only trying to answer your question on what I feel they mean, not determine if you care or not. Reading the news I came to the instant conclusion that they were and had always been slaves prior to this, not Republic citizens. ------ Mirkur Draug'Tyr :: Recruitment
Mr Reeth The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:29:00 - [24] Originally by: Evanda Char To Mr Reeth and Merdaneth, if I read the Scripture correctly, am I right in thinking that there are some interpretations that call for justice to be proportional to the crime? The sort of action taken by Brother Joshua which calls for "an eye for an eye"? Nope, you must be thinking of some other book. That sounds more like a Gallente Democratic system of justice. Amarr justice extends down family lines through generations. And punishment is also altered by the status of the criminal and the victim. If I, as a commoner were to be murdered by the Emperor my family could seek justice in the taking of a few flakes of dead skin from the emperorÆs hand. If I were to murder the Emperor I could expect to be tortured to death in the most unimaginable ways. All my goods and the goods of my family and even my family would then become the property of the Emperors family. The basic hierarchy goes, Emperor, Chancellor, heir, noble, commoner and slave. Clergy are a little more complicated and can be considered anywhere from heir to just above commoner based on a variety of factors. The legal system in Amarr can be very complicated, like any other place. If the TC has trouble making a case against anyone, and there was at least one Republic citizen in the lot, they may just extradite them to the Republic to face kidnapping charges.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:32:00 - [25] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 20/03/2008 12:36:02 Darius, while I admit that it is possible that there was not one citizen on those ships (and more than likely that not all of them were illegally obtained), I think being confident about that shows entirely too much faith in the capability and willingness of the Amarr Empire to control "the traders of poor reputation" that engage in illegal slave raids and trafficing in free people. Not like this would be the first time that they claim that a kidnapper ship has been conducting entirely legal if regrettably harsh business. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:34:00 - [26] Yes we all know how well the Amarrian authorities will "investigate" this "accident", they will treat it as a case similar to abusing livestock. Human beings are seen within the Empire, as chattel, not how Amarrians CLAIM which is usually some lie about "slaves are like our children, we guide them and care for them." Yeah I'm sure you leave your own children in a broken down hauler for a week. Republic citizens must realize that there is a de-facto war of annihilation on against all of us personally, not as citizens of a state, but personally as human beings.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:48:00 - [27] Originally by: Cipher7 Republic citizens must realize that there is a de-facto war of annihilation on against all of us personally, not as citizens of a state, but personally as human beings. Annihilation? If you want to talk about annihilation let's talk about the one hundred thousand slaves murdered by Minmatar terrorists earlier this week, shall we? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Mr Reeth The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:52:00 - [28] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 20/03/2008 12:36:02 I think being confident about that shows entirely too much faith in the capability and willingness of the Amarr Empire to control "the traders of poor reputation" that engage in illegal slave raids and trafficing in free people. Elsebeth These raiders and vile traders are slipping through all of our fingers, Republic, Empire and Concord alike. And I wonder if these poor souls would have been found soon were the Navy not currently engaged and always on the lookout for ôfreedom fighters.ö
Gaven Lok'ri PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.20 18:26:00 - [29] Your entire premise that there might have been republic citizens there is based upon a single misused word in indirect statement from a source. In other words, it is either a misused word by the reporter or a misused word by the source. Now, you can take that to mean that said source/reporter knew exactly where the slaves came from, and somehow decided to not make news out of what would be an international incident. Or, you can show a gram of common sense, and realize that since only you are coming up with this grand conspiracy theory based on a single word your grand conspiracy is probably based on nothing. People misuse words all the time. I would not read too much into it, if I were you. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.20 19:24:00 - [30] Maybe it was just a misused word. I am starting to regret mentioning the word at all and simply not asking that since it is quite possible that there are Matari citizens on the ships of these traders "of poor reputation", what is the situation here, exactly. I guess we will find out when they arrive home. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.

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