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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.20 15:57:00 -
[31]
The main distinction isnt carebear v griefer at all. The main distinction is casual v hardcore gamer.
The onyl reason i have fairly decent name recognition is because I used to play alot, and used to post alot.
Someone that has only ever played casually will maybe know me by name, but I'll never know him/her.
And someone that plays casually has very different perspectives on gameplay then someone that plays hardcore, regardless of what they prefer doing.
I used to focus mostly on player-empowering features in the past. But now I also worry a bit about over-complicating the game, since casual play does alter your perspective somewhat I must admit.
[center] Old blog |
Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:02:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
The main distinction is casual v hardcore gamer.
Oh boy, like I wasn't confused enough already about where I fall in the black and white boundries!
Avon: Casual player of Hardcore aspects of Eve, with a diverse and interesting background in Trading, Piracy, and ship spinning in stations.
Maybe it is best I don't run, because I have no idea what platform I would stand on.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Zaphroid Eulthran
Imperial Visions
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:05:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Avon
So you would rather vote for someone who's experience limited to what you know, rather than someone who's experience encompasses what you know, and also how that relates to other aspects of the game?
How does that make you any different from the people you are speaking out against?
You are immediately falling in to the trap of seeing only as far as a players affiliation, and not their experience.
Yes I would rather vote for someone who represents my way of playing EvE, I am not calling for all members of CSM to be HiSec based, just one of them would be enough.
I am speaking out against people who dismiss my type of playing as wasting time and missing the true point of EvE. I am not dissmissing the loSec life, infact I accept the way they choose to play and request that they dont try to force me to change how I play.
I know that many 0.0 players or Pirates will have HiSec mission or Mining alts and see this as the necessisary experiance to govern it, but it really isnt. Doing something as a part time alt and having something as your main playstyle is very different, its not just knowledge of the game mechanic its the state of mind involved in doing it. Hi-Sec Industry NEEDS Mini Freighters <- not T2 bazillion ISK alliance toys |
Shadow Joy
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:06:00 -
[34]
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
H. L. Mencken
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Zaphroid Eulthran
Imperial Visions
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:11:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran With the possible exception of Tarmanic all of the opposition to hisec dwellers getting a say in their game has come from big alliance members.
I didn't actually object to it - I was just saying that the perception that 0.0 players hate carebears may be different from the reality because all 0.0 empires have ties to high-sec industry and mission running to some extent.
Misunderstanding I think, I called you the exception because you were expressing a positive viewpoint in apparant contradiction with you being a member of an alliance.
I believe its not a hatred as such, but a failure to see the reasoning why HiSec people do what they do. The 0.0 crowd cant see why everyone doesnt want to be in 0.0 industry and mining has nothing to do with it, it is where people choose to be that upsets them.
Hi-Sec Industry NEEDS Mini Freighters <- not T2 bazillion ISK alliance toys |
Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran
I believe its not a hatred as such, but a failure to see the reasoning why HiSec people do what they do. The 0.0 crowd cant see why everyone doesnt want to be in 0.0 industry and mining has nothing to do with it, it is where people choose to be that upsets them.
To be frank, I think you are probably more bigoted than the "0.0 crowd". Just because *they* don't choose to play the way you do does not automatically mean that they dislike, disrespect, or just don't understand your choice. However, you are showing that you dislike them because they play in a way you do not wish to.
I have driven both Nissans and BMWs, and both are good cars. Persoanlly the BMW 325i I currently own suits me better than the Nissan 300zx I used to own, but the Nissan was a great car (not enough room in the back for the kids). If you were going to take advice on which to buy, would you ask someone who has only owned one of them, or would you rather be advised by someone who has owned both? My knowledge about my BMW does not automatically make me ignorant about, or biased against, the Nissan - I can see the relative merits of both.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Orree
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.03.20 17:02:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Orree on 20/03/2008 17:06:18
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 20/03/2008 14:28:23 I find it quite sad you think that just because someone is in a 0.0 alliance that they are somehow unable to think rationally about how proposed game balance changes may effect those who choose to live in High Security space.
What we need on the CSM, and what I am looking for in a candidate, is someone who I feel will act in the best interests of the game as a whole, rather than pushing either a gung-ho PvP agenda, or a carebear one.
I would also suggest that people in 0.0 alliances probably have a full understanding and experience of High Security space too, that the two are not mutually exclusive.
This pretty much encapsulates my thoughts on the subject. Nice one, Avon.
0.0 dwellers run the full gamut of play in EVE, I think. Lots of hi-sec mission-runners, builders, researchers. They engage in low and null sec combat. They engage in "empire wars." They run POS networks in low and null sec. They engage in territorial warfare and sovereignty activities.
Just because a prospective council member lives in 0.0, it really is a stretch to think he or she will not be looking to protect the interests of all styles of play.
The argument/fear could be turned right around and be perhaps be more valid. I'd probably be concerned that a preponderance of hi-sec dwellers on the council might not fully be aware of the nuances of the various issues affecting the wider game.
I guess time will tell, but I don't think it is necessarily so that representation will be stacked in favor of the larger 0.0 alliances and that, even if it were, there would be a 0.0 bias that hurts the game.
In the end, it falls upon all the potential voters to consider and use their vote well. People who vote blindly or along "party lines" deserve the poor leadership they inevitably get.
Look for people who have exhibited an even-handed, level-headed nature in the past. People who will act in the best interests of the game as a whole, and not be skewed towards one agenda or another.
"How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli |
Jaco Matari
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.03.20 17:07:00 -
[38]
Well I'm going to say there is almost no chance that any low sec people will be in there then, which is too bad since it's a side of EVE that probably won't have a say. And low sec is one of the things that really could stand to be looked at.
I don't know how they could fix this problem either without moving away from the idea of a popular vote, low sec just doesn't have a unified enough population, or a large enough one. And I think that moving from a popular vote would sort of defeat the purpose of what their doing. ------------------------------------------------- Come to low sec, it's FUN. |
Fifth Horseman
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.20 17:34:00 -
[39]
Considering why we are getting the CSM, and who is granting it to us, what we were originally told we were getting, and what we are now told we are actually getting, and they have told us that it will be 100% toothless. One can only conclude it will be a happy retirement home for Eve Veterans. Very much like the Chairman position of any company, and more so with regulatory bodies.
So now you know who will populate it. You know they won't do anything except maybe get to have there own forum on purely cosmetic nonsense like icon activation being illegible in green star systems.
What is there to argue about? Not a lot really. It's just a big smoke screen of non achievement. A mini fanfest for the hallowed few, very cosy.
There really is, literally, nothing to see here.
--- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse.
2) Idiot.
Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz. |
Zorlag
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 17:50:00 -
[40]
"The Silent Majority" is a bunch of morons throwing their lives away in empire mining ice and running repetitive missions. They'll gobble up any tedious task or game mechanic we throw at them without really understanding it or making any effort to, so why should they even have a voice?
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Troyd23
Free Range Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.20 17:51:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Troyd23 on 20/03/2008 17:54:20
Originally by: Jaco Matari Well I'm going to say there is almost no chance that any low sec people will be in there then, which is too bad since it's a side of EVE that probably won't have a say. And low sec is one of the things that really could stand to be looked at.
I don't know how they could fix this problem either without moving away from the idea of a popular vote, low sec just doesn't have a unified enough population, or a large enough one. And I think that moving from a popular vote would sort of defeat the purpose of what their doing.
Which is why we need canidates / parties that are concerned for the good of the game. Not just their particular living space. Even if the council has no teeth, it will enforce the urgency needed to fix some problems such as low-sec viability.
Oh yeah and vote chribba!
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000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
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Posted - 2008.03.20 17:53:00 -
[42]
Vote me for prez!!!
But seriously, i thought this was a bad idea from the start, i don't want a few people i have no dealings with whatsoever, deciding whats best for me.
Anyways my vote goes to Chribba _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
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Pwett
QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.03.20 18:02:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Fifth Horseman Don't do anything except maybe get to have there own forum on purely cosmetic nonsense like icon activation being illegible in green star systems.
Ah, good point! I'll make sure to make that a priority if I get elected. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Benco97
Exchangable Properties
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Posted - 2008.03.20 18:06:00 -
[44]
Wait...what the hell have I missed? o.O What's going on? We're electing someone for something?
Originally by: Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
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Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
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Posted - 2008.03.20 18:11:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran Now, from the info given out by CCP it is known that a vast majority of players are based in high security space, these people could easaly out vote any and all alliances, what the people of hisec dont have is the unity of an alliance to single mindedly vote in one direction.
I agree with this point. But on the other side a lot will depend on how the candidates will present themselves, their positions and what they want to fight for on the forums and other communication platforms (in-game channels, local channels of high sec hubs?) before the election. I someone is able to attract (more than other candidates) the interest of many of the high sec players he will have a good chance to drag many votes in his direction. At least me myself will decide based on that self-presentation of the candidates.
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Ankhesentapemkah
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.03.20 18:12:00 -
[46]
That'll be me.
Expect the website up VERY soon.
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Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.03.20 18:34:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran
Now, from the info given out by CCP it is known that a vast majority of players are based in high security space, these people could easaly out vote any and all alliances, what the people of hisec dont have is the unity of an alliance to single mindedly vote in one direction.
Actual split of accounts is close to 50-50, a few percentage points in favor of Hi-sec. You are simply being blinded because you are unable to distinguish between 'characters' and accounts.
Also 0.0 player-age, subscription length and likelihood to continue playing this game for years is far higher than hi-sec dwellers.
So no. You don't need a voice. ____
Black Rabbits Recruitment |
Soporo
Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.20 18:43:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Soporo on 20/03/2008 18:43:14 Eh, someone from EVE-Uni needs to get c-r-a-c-k-ing and start a platform. My two cents. ________________________________________________
"We can't reimburse ships due to server meltdowns because our service is so frickin unstable we get thousands of reimburse petitions daily". |
Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 18:46:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran Thankyou for all the responces so far, we seem to have drifted a little off target but on the whole the discussion has been revealing.
With the possible exception of Tarmanic all of the opposition to hisec dwellers getting a say in their game has come from big alliance members.
And Kagura Nikon thank you so much for your post, you have provided a brilliant insight into the thought process of the type of person we really dont need.
I dont deny that the most blood thirsty pirate can be civilised when not plugged into his ship, but what can the player who controls that pirate know about the problems ascociated with the day to day running of a small scale mine to manufacture corp?
Thing is, people who live in 0.0 and low-sec and are well versed in the combat portion of the game and in surviving in those areas, are more often than also very knowledgable in other areas in the game like industry and markets. Many, many big 0.0 alliance members run industrial operations of various sorts out in 0.0 and also in empire space with alts. For example, this is my industrial alt.
People who live exclusivein high-sec on the other hand may know their own tiny field reasonably well (although sometimes not even that, because they're usually very casual players), but they mostly know absolutely nothing about anything else in the game.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2008.03.20 18:50:00 -
[50]
I think that a strong faction who has no clear representation is the industrialist. We have clear needs, can command great power, but have no real focal unity. We produce the great fleets. We alter markets at a whim. But in the end, we get left with scraps as far as content and implementation. Hell, we still fight the interface tooth and nail just to play the game.
We all get rich when we all get rich together.
Originally by: Frug Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
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Siresa Talesi
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.20 21:50:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Cailais
stuff
mantain status quo? Do you thin eve should shift more to carebears? There are already 1 trillion MMO like that. We need MORE BLOOD!!! People that don have the courage to try get out of high sec (not telling those are ALL high sec people , but for sure most), do not KNOW THE GAME, so they should have no word about the game either.
0.0 peopel are the ones that know the whole game, so those are the ones with the complete views and that should be listened.
Originally by: Zorlag "The Silent Majority" is a bunch of morons throwing their lives away in empire mining ice and running repetitive missions. They'll gobble up any tedious task or game mechanic we throw at them without really understanding it or making any effort to, so why should they even have a voice?
I think these statements illustrate perfectly the type of attitude people are concerned about. Thank you for helping prove a point.
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 20/03/2008 17:11:19
Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran
stuff
To be frank, I think you are probably more bigoted than the "0.0 crowd". Just because *they* don't choose to play the way you do does not automatically mean that they dislike, disrespect, or just don't understand your choice. However, you are showing that you dislike them because they play in a way you do not wish to.
Is it bigoted to want a representative who you know has your best interests at heart? Bear in mind that the chosen playstyle of many of those in the "0.0 crowd" involves intentionally screwing over as many other players as possible for their own benefit. Are we just supposed to take it on faith that this type of behavior does not extend beyond the character to the player? What would someone like this do once in a position where they have CCP's ear? I'm sure it's not the case for everyone with that playstyle, but I hope you can understand why people would be a bit paranoid about letting someone like that represent them.
"Space is filled with countless hours of boredom...punctuated by moments of abject terror." - Capn. James T. Kirk, Starfleet Academy |
Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:09:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 20/03/2008 22:09:30
Originally by: Siresa Talesi
Originally by: Zorlag "The Silent Majority" is a bunch of morons throwing their lives away in empire mining ice and running repetitive missions. They'll gobble up any tedious task or game mechanic we throw at them without really understanding it or making any effort to, so why should they even have a voice?
I think these statements illustrate perfectly the type of attitude people are concerned about. Thank you for helping prove a point.
Well, Zorlag is 100% right. The type of players that stay in high-sec and never venture outside generally have a very poor understanding of the game and how it works even in their own narrow field, let alone the other parts of the game which they never get involved in at all. On the other hand, many of us that live in 0.0 tend to be involved in many different aspects of the game.
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Ankhesentapemkah
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:16:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ridley Tree Actual split of accounts is close to 50-50, a few percentage points in favor of Hi-sec. You are simply being blinded because you are unable to distinguish between 'characters' and accounts.
Also 0.0 player-age, subscription length and likelihood to continue playing this game for years is far higher than hi-sec dwellers.
So no. You don't need a voice.
The figure was actually around 80% of high-sec players as far as I remember.
As for the rest of your bull, look at my account age. 2003. And I don't go to lowsec and 0.0, and understand the game mechanics perfectly. I just think PVP is boring and killing other players for loot is selfish.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:21:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild Well, Zorlag is 100% right. The stereotype of players that stay in high-sec and never venture outside generally have a very poor understanding of the game and how it works even in their own narrow field, let alone the other parts of the game which they never get involved in at all. On the other hand, many of us that live in 0.0 tend to be involved in many different aspects of the game.
Fixed. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2 |
Reem Fairchild
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:31:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Reem Fairchild Well, Zorlag is 100% right. The stereotype of players that stay in high-sec and never venture outside generally have a very poor understanding of the game and how it works even in their own narrow field, let alone the other parts of the game which they never get involved in at all. On the other hand, many of us that live in 0.0 tend to be involved in many different aspects of the game.
Fixed.
I did say "generally". I know there are many exceptions.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:40:00 -
[56]
What we need is an official sticky thread here and not 10 different ones on the issue of the council.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Tarminic
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Posted - 2008.03.20 22:41:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild I did say "generally". I know there are many exceptions.
Fair enough.
However, I don't think that it's right to look down on any players because they do not participate in activity X or often perform activity Y or are not especially familiar with game mechanic Z. They are players nonetheless and should have their interests represented equally in the council. Just because someone runs missions constantly does not mean that he has no say in how EVE can change for the better.
If it were up to me, this is how I would divide the council members off the top of my head:
1 Representative from a major alliance participating in an offensive war 1 Representative from a major alliance participating in a defensive war 1 Representative from an alliance that operates but holds no territory in 0.0 1 Representative from a low-sec pirate organization 1 Representative from a low-sec anti-pirate organization 1 Representative for industrialists 1 Representative for mission runners 1 Representative for miners 1 Representative from an alliance occupying high-security space ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2 |
Reem Fairchild
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:02:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Reem Fairchild I did say "generally". I know there are many exceptions.
Fair enough.
However, I don't think that it's right to look down on any players because they do not participate in activity X or often perform activity Y or are not especially familiar with game mechanic Z. They are players nonetheless and should have their interests represented equally in the council. Just because someone runs missions constantly does not mean that he has no say in how EVE can change for the better.
If it were up to me, this is how I would divide the council members off the top of my head:
Well, se your list kind of illustrates my original point.
A lot of people (but not all, of course) from these groups:
Quote: 1 Representative from a major alliance participating in an offensive war 1 Representative from a major alliance participating in a defensive war 1 Representative from an alliance that operates but holds no territory in 0.0
Will often be representative of these 3 groups as well, to some extent:
Quote: 1 Representative for industrialists 1 Representative for mission runners 1 Representative for miners
But the opposite is not really true.
You can be a high-sec miner, manufacturer, trader, ect. ... and never do anything else, never leave high-sec, never bother with the rest of the game and players, and never get involved in what is really the heart of the game, that is combat (except in the few rare cases that it gets violently imposed on them, like with what Tri and Goons have been doing lately). But there is no way you can run any kind of serious activity in 0.0 without industry.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:07:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild You can be a high-sec miner, manufacturer, trader, ect. ... and never do anything else, never leave high-sec, never bother with the rest of the game and players, and never get involved in what is really the heart of the game
So in your opinion, that makes them unworthy of fair representation? ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2 |
Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 23:16:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Reem Fairchild You can be a high-sec miner, manufacturer, trader, ect. ... and never do anything else, never leave high-sec, never bother with the rest of the game and players, and never get involved in what is really the heart of the game
So in your opinion, that makes them unworthy of fair representation?
No, in my opinion that makes them not as qualified to speak on game balance issues. When people have little experience with something, they don't even know how little they know about it to begin with.
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