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CSM, The Silent Majority Needs A Voice

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Zaphroid Eulthran Imperial Visions	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:14:00 - [1] I have been looking at the proposed Council Of Stellar Management, and along with many other people have predicted that most if not all of the positions will be taken by characters from the big 0.0 alliances. I am not saying this is a bad thing but I am saying it is going to happen. Now, from the info given out by CCP it is known that a vast majority of players are based in high security space, these people could easaly out vote any and all alliances, what the people of hisec dont have is the unity of an alliance to single mindedly vote in one direction. The idea behind the council is for a few payers to represent the masses in all mannor of EvE activity, What I am worried about is having a bunch of gung-ho 0.0 alliance types presenting (or not) the concerns of hisec players. Not that they wouldnt want to but that by not being involved in it they wouldnt have the necessary experiance. I propose to champion a Voice of the Hisec community to put out a name that the masses can rally behind to put their ideas and concerns to CCP without bias. This post is an attempt to find that person, I/we need a well known and most importantly trustworthy resident of hisec who has experiance of everything from mining to manufacture from complexing to mission running, someone who wants a week long trip to Iceland Please feel free to put forward any candidates or ideas that may help the cause Hi-Sec Industry NEEDS Mini Freighters <- not T2 bazillion ISK alliance toys
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:27:00 - [2] Edited by: Avon on 20/03/2008 14:28:23 I find it quite sad you think that just because someone is in a 0.0 alliance that they are somehow unable to think rationally about how proposed game balance changes may effect those who choose to live in High Security space. What we need on the CSM, and what I am looking for in a candidate, is someone who I feel will act in the best interests of the game as a whole, rather than pushing either a gung-ho PvP agenda, or a carebear one. I would also suggest that people in 0.0 alliances probably have a full understanding and experience of High Security space too, that the two are not mutually exclusive. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:29:00 - [3] The denizens of high-security space may indeed be under-represented unless there is a concerted effort made to nominate someone who is both electable and experienced in all aspects of high-security space. This doesn't just include mining and mission running, but high sec wars, suicide ganking and trading. I think that perhaps a candidate should possibly be picked among high-sec alliances. Alliance are generally more hardcore than most so they would be familiar with game mechanics, and at the same time even PvP alliances have members that run missions to make money so he would be in a good position to receive advice regarding that. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:31:00 - [4] A lot of high-sec residents are actually the alts of 0.0 people. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:34:00 - [5] Originally by: Rodj Blake A lot of high-sec residents are actually the alts of 0.0 people. LIES!* *I use my main in High Sec, my alt stays in 0.0 Hang on, does that make me my alts part-time empire alt? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Rodj Blake A lot of high-sec residents are actually the alts of 0.0 people. I think that the issue is more one of perception instead of actual knowledge of how high-security space works. I feel like (based on the impressions many high-sec mission residents get from these forums) people would fear that every "improvement" to high-security space will be to push them into low-sec and 0.0. How many times do you see threads with titles like "Move all level 3 and 4 missions to low-sec!" or "Okay carebears, why aren't you in 0.0 yet?" The fear is that a 0.0 alliance representative, while he knows much about high-sec living, will focus primarily on moving people from high-sec to 0.0. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2
Andrue Hammers Academy	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:39:00 - [7] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 20/03/2008 14:28:23 I find it quite sad you think that just because someone is in a 0.0 alliance that they are somehow unable to think rationally about how proposed game balance changes may effect those who choose to live in High Security space. What we need on the CSM, and what I am looking for in a candidate, is someone who I feel will act in the best interests of the game as a whole, rather than pushing either a gung-ho PvP agenda, or a carebear one. I would also suggest that people in 0.0 alliances probably have a full understanding and experience of High Security space too, that the two are not mutually exclusive. Some people might but most don't. I think the OP has a very valid point. Even those 0.0 people that are familiar with how Empire 'works' probably don't understand the Empire mindset - or at least not that of a significant number of its residents. In my experience 0.0 inhabitants have great difficulty understanding why anyone would log on just to run missions, mine hi-sec ore and generally 'diddle around'. The closest most 0.0 residents can come is accepting that Empire is a handy refuge and source of goods/money. I can well imagine them changing aspects of Empire so that they are more lucrative or fun and completely destroying the game for players that just want to knock-around for an hour two. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Uzuness stone grave haulage PROBABLE CAUSE	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:42:00 - [8] How long until people from low sec. try to move the level 4 missions to low sec.?
skuko State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:44:00 - [9] Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran This post is an attempt to find that person, I/we need a well known and most importantly trustworthy resident of hisec who has experiance of everything from mining to manufacture from complexing to mission running, someone who wants a week long trip to Iceland Please feel free to put forward any candidates or ideas that may help the cause /me votes for chribba :)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Uzuness How long until people from low sec. try to move the level 4 missions to low sec.? I think that the vast majority of the council - if the idea was seriously suggested in the first place - would shoot it down pretty quickly. It's a pretty idea and can be easily refuted. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2

Akorin Locust Syndicate Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Avon What we need on the CSM, and what I am looking for in a candidate, is someone who I feel will act in the best interests of the game as a whole, rather than pushing either a gung-ho PvP agenda, or a carebear one. I agree this is the way it should be but sadly the community is sorely lacking in people with a balanced view of the game. Whether you look at empire 'carebears', low/nulsec 'rats' or the alliance 'elite', everyone (at least on these forums) seems to have an ego as big as an Obelisk and the vision of a myopic earth worm. The best I think we can hope for is a reasonably balanced number of pro-carebear and pro-pvp guys arguing until they come to a solution in the middle (kind of how like real political cabinets work.) The most likely.. Well the nullsec folks seem to be a _lot_ more dedicated than the casual empire folks so my bet would be they will dominate the council to the detriment of all.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Avon I find it quite sad you think that just because someone is in a 0.0 alliance that they are somehow unable to think rationally about how proposed game balance changes may effect those who choose to live in High Security space. I think were the OP and others have issues with this is that we know that most of the people will be bright enough to think rationally about Eve related things. But. Will we be able to trust them to do the right thing? Given our lovely 0.0 residents penchant to jump into the political metagame head first licking thier lips over even a hint of an ingame advantage I highly doubt it. I mean the whole idea that players who as reflex look for any way to get a one up over thier enemys will just magically join hands and work toghther for a better Eve is hyperbole of the finest quality. This is going to end up like the Arab council scene at the end of Lawrence of Arabia I predict. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Cailais VITOC	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:57:00 - [13] The CSM will simply ensure that the current major Alliances can secure and maintain the status quo - even if they have to act as a cartel to do so. The 'Nine' will undoubtabley ensure that their choice of candidate (and subsequent succesors) are selected and we might aswell list the nine most influential alliances right now, and be done with the whole buisness of voting. Ultimately we will have a disenfranchised majority, who will be (by and large) dictated to by a minority. I wouldn't be in the least bit suprised to see in game actions (war decs, attacks etc) being used to coral disenters and opposors to those who threaten the status quo. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.20 14:58:00 - [14] Originally by: Uzuness How long until people from low sec. try to move the level 4 missions to low sec.? In all honesty just moving the missions wouldn't work anyway. To imagine that the mission runners will just go where the misisons are is unrealistic. Many people who are able to run level 4 missions could make more isk running level 5's, but don't. The only real issue with the earning potential of hi-sec space is that there isn't enough of a need to push the ISK outwards. Lo-Sec and 0.0 aren't 'poor' because they lack resources, they are 'poor' because those who have the easier ISK earning potential do not need to import much from the areas of greater risk. If anything they are probably becomming net exporters. I would wager that the export of faction ammo outstrips the import of high-end faction and officer modules. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Zeba Given our lovely 0.0 residents penchant to jump into the political metagame head first licking thier lips over even a hint of an ingame advantage I highly doubt it. I mean the whole idea that players who as reflex look for any way to get a one up over thier enemys will just magically join hands and work toghther for a better Eve is hyperbole of the finest quality. This is going to end up like the Arab council scene at the end of Lawrence of Arabia I predict. I agree that it is very had to see past the character to see the player, and I wish there were an easy way around it. What I enjoy about Eve player meets is the juxtaposition of the people and their characters. Mostly you can sit around and chat sociably about Eve, and the game mechanics, bugs, horror stories, and most people have the same tales to tell. Then you look them up in game and you see one is a 'carebear', and the other is a -10 gate ganking pirate. Take Rodj up there for example (please, seriously, take him), IRL he is a very clever guy, and someone I always look forward to bumping in to over a couple of drinks. I don't hold the fact that he is a crazy Amarrian fanatic sway my judgement, much. However, is a Minmitar freedom fighter going to see the Rodj I see, or is he going to see the evil slaver he pretends to be? If he has never had the pleasure of seeing beyond the character his opinion of Rodj is going to be biased. The same applies to carebear/pirate, industrialist/suicider, hi-sec/lo-sec, or whatever. It is incredibly hard to see past the character, and it would be niave to think there is some magical way to avoid that. So what to do? If you run with an alt you lack credibility, and if you run with your main you risk bias and bigotry. Heh, that's politics I guess. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Mallikanth Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:13:00 - [16] A couple of points here, I think: 1) the CSM is an advisory body that CCP are well within their rights to ignore should they want too. More likely they will take comments on board and adjust them somewhat. Hence, the "power block" of suspected Low sec representatives would be tempered. 2) CCP are not stupid (regardless of what people post in these forums) and on the whole know how to balance their game for everyone while keeping their original vision alive. With these points in mind this advisory body of the CSM will, for six months at a time, be a usefull tool for CCP and should the CSM be full of "tools" then I'm sure they will be dealt with accordingly until the next round of voting.
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:14:00 - [17] Originally by: Cailais The CSM will simply ensure that the current major Alliances can secure and maintain the status quo - even if they have to act as a cartel to do so. The 'Nine' will undoubtabley ensure that their choice of candidate (and subsequent succesors) are selected and we might aswell list the nine most influential alliances right now, and be done with the whole buisness of voting. Ultimately we will have a disenfranchised majority, who will be (by and large) dictated to by a minority. I wouldn't be in the least bit suprised to see in game actions (war decs, attacks etc) being used to coral disenters and opposors to those who threaten the status quo. C. mantain status quo? Do you thin eve should shift more to carebears? There are already 1 trillion MMO like that. We need MORE BLOOD!!! People that don have the courage to try get out of high sec (not telling those are ALL high sec people , but for sure most), do not KNOW THE GAME, so they should have no word about the game either. 0.0 peopel are the ones that know the whole game, so those are the ones with the complete views and that should be listened. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Kagura Nikon mantain status quo? Do you thin eve should shift more to carebears? There are already 1 trillion MMO like that. We need MORE BLOOD!!! People that don have the courage to try get out of high sec (not telling those are ALL high sec people , but for sure most), do not KNOW THE GAME, so they should have no word about the game either. 0.0 peopel are the ones that know the whole game, so those are the ones with the complete views and that should be listened. Er...I don't think you're helping... ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2
Pwett QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:19:00 - [19] Don't worry, I'll make sure to run! _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:21:00 - [20] Originally by: Uzuness How long until people from low sec. try to move the level 4 missions to low sec.? Noooo my risk free isk!

Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:26:00 - [21] Why don't you run Andrue ? I'd give you one of my votes if it makes people feel things would be balanced better. Already gave one to Hardin btw, because I think he'd do well too. The third, well, we'll see. [center] Old blog
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:27:00 - [22] Originally by: Avon I agree that it is very had to see past the character to see the player, and I wish there were an easy way around it. What I enjoy about Eve player meets is the juxtaposition of the people and their characters. Mostly you can sit around and chat sociably about Eve, and the game mechanics, bugs, horror stories, and most people have the same tales to tell. Then you look them up in game and you see one is a 'carebear', and the other is a -10 gate ganking pirate. Take Rodj up there for example (please, seriously, take him), IRL he is a very clever guy, and someone I always look forward to bumping in to over a couple of drinks. I don't hold the fact that he is a crazy Amarrian fanatic sway my judgement, much. However, is a Minmitar freedom fighter going to see the Rodj I see, or is he going to see the evil slaver he pretends to be? If he has never had the pleasure of seeing beyond the character his opinion of Rodj is going to be biased. The same applies to carebear/pirate, industrialist/suicider, hi-sec/lo-sec, or whatever. It is incredibly hard to see past the character, and it would be niave to think there is some magical way to avoid that. So what to do? If you run with an alt you lack credibility, and if you run with your main you risk bias and bigotry. Heh, that's politics I guess. Spoken like a true politition. Personally I see this whole council thing as just another layer of greifing that CCP will put in the game for the people who are tired of simple pew pew and lets blob the next system to break/gain sov alliance game. CAOD has its limits after all. Now don't get me wrong I'm actually for this as I predict we will garner much amusment on the forums once its set up and running and peoples true natures come out. Yes people not character. You might be running for office on your character but there is a reason they play a ruthless sunuvabiatch in the game afterall. As far as the council getting its way and influancing the game in thier favor I dont really see that as CCP will always have the final word unless of course you appeal to their inner greifer with some partically spectacular plan to change something that will cause the forums to melt down as the devs giggle thier arses off over a mug of Bree. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Charcoal The Garden	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Kagura Nikon mantain status quo? Do you thin eve should shift more to carebears? There are already 1 trillion MMO like that. We need MORE BLOOD!!! People that don have the courage to try get out of high sec (not telling those are ALL high sec people , but for sure most), do not KNOW THE GAME, so they should have no word about the game either. 0.0 peopel are the ones that know the whole game, so those are the ones with the complete views and that should be listened. Rubbish, just rubbish. Avon's comments make sense, yours are no more than frothing nonsense. There are a lot of people in 0.0 Alliances who do know a lot about the game, there's no denying that. However, there are also a lot of people in 0.0 whose entire view of EVE is "teh pew pew!!!!", and who are sorely lacking any kind of objectivity. There are industrialists and marketeers who have been plying their trade in the game for years without ever jumping into low sec space, and I'll warrant that they are every bit as knowledgable in their own areas as the very best FCs that the 0.0 Alliances can offer are in theirs. Like it or not, if the CSM is to be representative of the EVE population it will need to draw its members from all walks of EVE life.
Troyd23 Free Range Industries	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:32:00 - [24] Edited by: Troyd23 on 20/03/2008 15:33:30 in my opinion, the only way these alliances are going to out vote to majority in empire, is if they buy the votes. ( Buying and selling of Votes was tossed around somewhere by CCP ) As most people will not car about the election and will just sell their votes in order to make some quick cash. I personnaly am hoping that some sort of "political parties" will arise, advertising their views and fielding canidates to fill all 6 ( or how ever many ) sets in council. Well not real world syle parties, as they won't have any influeence but... a "Fix low sec partY" and its canidates would have my vote. To be honest i would have already started a website with a forum on issues tha concern people, and then turn the most prominent ones into my platform..then get a bunch of buddies together and campaign in high sec / forums. but.. i lack the technical knowledge to do so ^^; but i'm willing to run as a canidate for those who can Oh and Chribba for CSM!
Drachtul Tun'Dull Stair Fall	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:34:00 - [25] What is this "low-sec" power bloc? The way it is so under-utilized, I wouldn't think this bloc (if it IS a bloc) really could pull many votes. And my understanding is that a lot of low-sec -10 pirates have other characters that they use for other things. Hell, a friend of mine who used to play the game set up an alt corp so his carebear corp could go pirate in lowsec on the weekends. He said they got blinky pretty quick and were proud of it, but most of the time they just played on their mains, mining, building, selling in an entirely different area.
Zaphroid Eulthran Imperial Visions	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:35:00 - [26] Thankyou for all the responces so far, we seem to have drifted a little off target but on the whole the discussion has been revealing. With the possible exception of Tarmanic all of the opposition to hisec dwellers getting a say in their game has come from big alliance members. And Kagura Nikon thank you so much for your post, you have provided a brilliant insight into the thought process of the type of person we really dont need. I dont deny that the most blood thirsty pirate can be civilised when not plugged into his ship, but what can the player who controls that pirate know about the problems ascociated with the day to day running of a small scale mine to manufacture corp? Hi-Sec Industry NEEDS Mini Freighters <- not T2 bazillion ISK alliance toys
Thornat Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:41:00 - [27] I agree that the likelyhood of a carebear ending up as a CSM is highly unlikely for one big reason. It boils down to popularity and reputation. I have been playing this game for two years and I have met a lot of people and heard of a lot of people by reputation, none of them are carebears. Simply put, carebears don't really do anything of note. They don't change the tide of great battles for control of space, they aren't in charge of important game sweeping events. It boils down to the fact that carebear decesions and actions make absolutly no difference to the game and the people who run carebear corps and alliances are irrelevant in every sense of the word. Their entire 'impact' on the game boils down to market changes, which in the scope of the game is neither particularly noticeable nor does it make much of a difference. I guarantee you that the people who become CSM's are people who have earned a reputation in this game.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran With the possible exception of Tarmanic all of the opposition to hisec dwellers getting a say in their game has come from big alliance members. And Kagura Nikon thank you so much for your post, you have provided a brilliant insight into the thought process of the type of person we really dont need. So you would rather vote for someone who's experience limited to what you know, rather than someone who's experience encompasses what you know, and also how that relates to other aspects of the game? How does that make you any different from the people you are speaking out against? You are immediately falling in to the trap of seeing only as far as a players affiliation, and not their experience. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Andrue Hammers Academy	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Rod Blaine Why don't you run Andrue ? I'd give you one of my votes if it makes people feel things would be balanced better. Already gave one to Hardin btw, because I think he'd do well too. The third, well, we'll see. It's vaguely tempting but I'm concerned about having the time. I'll have a think about it. The problem is that the reason I, for one, diddle around in Empire is because that's all I have the energy for when I get home from work. OTOH it's hard to defend a viewpoint when it can be summarised as: "A certain group of people will get it in the shorts because they are too idle to speak up." Hmmm. Sounds a lot like Western democracy in action ..but I will give consideration to it. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:46:00 - [30] Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran With the possible exception of Tarmanic all of the opposition to hisec dwellers getting a say in their game has come from big alliance members. I didn't actually object to it - I was just saying that the perception that 0.0 players hate carebears may be different from the reality because all 0.0 empires have ties to high-sec industry and mission running to some extent. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2



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