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Stefx
Moons of Pluto
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Posted - 2008.03.23 00:52:00 -
[1]
I thought this one went away but it seems to have come back in fashion.
Over the past few days, three losers tried that scam on me.
Basically they convo you and tell you that they lost their ship in a mission. They ask if you could tank the rats while they grab their wreck.
Of course then they want to fleet up with you.
The problem is that they'll have some pals in another corp who has wardecced them. When you fleet up with him, you are now a valid target for their wardecced friends.
So, I just thought I'd make some newer players aware of this lame scam. Never fleet up with anyone you don't know well.
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MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc |
Letouk Mernel
Blue Shell Corporation
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Posted - 2008.03.23 01:01:00 -
[2]
Most of the scams never go away; even after being publicized and the entire community knows, some scammers still try. It's like spam mail, even if the success rate is only 0.0001%, that still makes it worth trying.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.03.23 01:38:00 -
[3]
Some guy in local was asking in bad english if someone could please help him and since I figured it'd be a trap I was careful, but also curious to see who'd be doing it hehe. Since I was flying a Rifter it wouldn't be an expensive loss, IF they would get me... and I'm quite sure they wouldn't.
So I joined up, foudn that it was just us 2 in gang, I SAID to him I was warping expecting someone to join the gang at that moment... didn't happen so I actually warped to the mission accelleration gate. Did a scan in the direction of that gate and only saw a coercer. I warped in and saw a shield boosting coercer being trapped by a single warp scrambling rat.
Dunno why he was unable to kill it though but it made me laugh, I helped him and he even paid me for the effort :P
So it doesn't ALWAYS happen but yeah, you can't trust anyone in EVE :)
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Stefx
Moons of Pluto
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Posted - 2008.03.23 01:42:00 -
[4]
Well if you really want to help in a safe fashion:
-Ask him to get in a shuttle
-Tell him to warp to his mission, make a quick bookmark and warp away (not a problem in a shuttle)
-He can jettison the bookmark.
If he closes the convo, or argues about this, then you know he was trying to scam you.
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MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc |
Kahega Amielden
Legacy Syndicate
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.03.23 02:01:00 -
[5]
huh? How does that help?
You can just fly there in a shuttle or cheap frig to make sure he really needs help, then come back. Or, better yet, just mash CTRL + Q and logoffski if you see people joining the gang.
Granted this is pretty low and a borderline exploit, I see nothing wrong with it seeing as how the Lofty is also a borderline exploit.
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Stefx
Moons of Pluto
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Posted - 2008.03.23 02:06:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Kahega Amielden
huh? How does that help?
Well it helps because you're not fleeted up with him, therefore his wardec pals can't legitimately attack you.
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MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc |
Kahega Amielden
Legacy Syndicate
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.03.23 02:10:00 -
[7]
ah. That works.
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hena var
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.03.23 05:41:00 -
[8]
it's never ended in the first place to be back
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Spaceways
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.03.23 07:39:00 -
[9]
The scam pays off, on average, because trusting strangers pays off, on average. Thwarting lofty by trusting nobody is like thwarting terrorists by being scared all the time and never leaving the house.
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Durzel
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.23 11:35:00 -
[10]
The most damaging thing about this exploit imo is that it has broader implications for the game.
If people aren't willing to help newbies simply because of exploits like this then there will be plenty of people who quit thinking that the community is unhelpful. I helped out a couple of people who were asking for help on the Rookie Help channel before hearing about this scam, and in retrospect had I known in advance I think I would've avoided helping them due to the risk involved.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.03.23 11:57:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Durzel
The most damaging thing about this exploit imo is that it has broader implications for the game.
If people aren't willing to help newbies simply because of exploits like this then there will be plenty of people who quit thinking that the community is unhelpful. I helped out a couple of people who were asking for help on the Rookie Help channel before hearing about this scam, and in retrospect had I known in advance I think I would've avoided helping them due to the risk involved.
Actually, you have it the wrong way round. Just accept that this game is anarchy and everyone is out to get you, that's what this game is about. If you wouldn't have heard of this tactic (it's NOT an exploit) then at some point later on you might have tried to help someone in your costly (faction) BS and THEN find out you don't know all there is to know on the game.
The sooner you realize it, the sooner you act and prepare for it, the better you're off and the easier it becomes for you to evade problems and advance into the direction you want.
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Durzel
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.23 14:18:00 -
[12]
I don't disagree with what you're saying but it does make for a pretty cold environment for a newcomer. I know, "Eve is harsh - accept it" but that doesn't alter the fact that without help there would be more people quitting than joining the game. I guess it depends on whether you/CCP want Eve to achieve much greater success or continue to be a niche MMO.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.03.23 14:54:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 23/03/2008 14:56:23
But that's exactly the thing, EVE has done so well BECAUSE it has been a niche product, catering for the other type of player than the more mainstream WOW/EQ/whatever. If it wouldn't have been so harsh, unforgiving and different in the first place it would probably never have been the success it is now.
Personally I ran away from normal MMO's because of the morons/idiots/******s that go "can I haf 10 gold plix" or people who simply can't be arsed to put in effort or to feel responsible for the group they're in.
So to me, it can't be unforgiving enough so that only the "strong" (read proper type of players) stay in. Simple case of forgiving societies breeding weak members and all that.
The ones that STILL can't adapt, they become easy prey for the pirates/PVPers.
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Letouk Mernel
Blue Shell Corporation
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Posted - 2008.03.23 15:42:00 -
[14]
Yeah, the EVE community is aggressive and harsh, when it comes down to it. None of the pink fuzzy happy "everyone is a friend" feeling you can find in other MMO's. We're nice and answer questions on this forum here, but otherwise, in-game, you're fair game for scamming, theft, sucide-ganks, attacks for no reasons, etc.
It's a PVP game.
A lot of us don't care how many players CCP gets, either. Some do, and they'll volunteer their time to bug-fix, do the CSM stuff, and otherwise promote the game, but most don't. Couldn't care less if you stay or go, can we have your stuff, and all that.
If you don't get used to this hostility, you'll eventually fall prey to one of the scams or one of the PVP gank situations, and you'll lose a lot of ISK and end up quitting the game in frustration.
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FarScape III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2008.03.24 07:30:00 -
[15]
I actually get the impression that CCP does not GET this scam, they keep saying to just read the warning that comes up when you join, but they don't get it that it happens AFTER you join.
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.03.24 10:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: FarScape III
I actually get the impression that CCP does not GET this scam, they keep saying to just read the warning that comes up when you join, but they don't get it that it happens AFTER you join.
I would say that they not only get it; but probably have tested this tactic, for the least, to see how it works. So to say that they are unfamiliar with how it works is a stretch.
Some potential usefull tactics to help safen up a situtation if you are a pilot that likes to assist newer players in the game but are a little unsure of wether or not the need for help is genuine.
- The age of the character is of no consequence. The problem arises from additional members, that are at war with the individual you are helping, that join the gang are then able to attacke you. Said "exploiters" have an alt in an alt corp that is war decked by them. So if you are helping a new player it is not a guarantee that they are not an alt. So use, one or more of the following tactics to minimize, and I say minimize, your risk.
- Stay in station when you join and check the gang for aqdditional gang members. If there is more then one pilot then leave the gang.
- Have the pilot fly back to station and trade you a bookmark in station then go to mission space without a gang.
- If you do join gang and warp to the member then warp to a "safer" distance say 50-100 km and get ready to align the minute you come out of warp. If new members join gang or there are extra pilots in said space align and warp out or log off for a good while.
- Get info on the type and level of mission. If it is a newer player in a level 1-3 then you do not need to take a very expensive ship to assist. Take something expendable.
- Fit a tank that will assist with PvP and be ready to loose it.
Yes it is easy to get blown up with this player option/scam/exploit, but take a few precautions and you should be able to minimize the chances for loss on your side.
Slade
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Doonoo Boonoo
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.24 12:11:00 -
[17]
Funny how it's perfectly legal to make 2 Corps to exploit a game mechanic and yet if people created 2 Corps to use the same mechanic to avoid a war it's declared an exploit.
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Tranka Verrane
Public Venture Enterprises
Safe And Fun Environment
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Posted - 2008.03.24 12:47:00 -
[18]
AFAIK you can also just demand to be boss/fleet leader or whatever it is called these days, so that any invites have to be done by you.
Ingame: Channels & Mailing lists>Channels>Join>PVE>OK
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.03.24 12:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
AFAIK you can also just demand to be boss/fleet leader or whatever it is called these days, so that any invites have to be done by you.
QFT. Can Not believe that I forgot that one, 
Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo
Edited by: Doonoo Boonoo on 24/03/2008 12:26:35
Edited by: Doonoo Boonoo on 24/03/2008 12:25:34
Funny how it's perfectly legal to make 2 Corps to exploit a game mechanic and yet if people created 2 Corps to use the same mechanic to avoid a war it's declared an exploit.
True.
The only distinction I can see is that one is used to avoid PvP where as one is used to create PvP. One is in the heart of EVE and one is against the core concept of EVE.
Slade
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gfldex
Kabelkopp
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Posted - 2008.03.24 18:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Durzel
The most damaging thing about this exploit imo is that it has broader implications for the game.
If people aren't willing to help newbies simply because of exploits like this then there will be plenty of people who quit thinking that the community is unhelpful.
If they can't come up with the idea to join a corp to get help, I personally wont miss them.
Originally by: Durzel
I helped out a couple of people who were asking for help on the Rookie Help channel before hearing about this scam, and in retrospect had I known in advance I think I would've avoided helping them due to the risk involved.
Utilizing Rookie Help or any other official channel for a scam is a banable offense. That may be the reason why you hardly ever see ppl doing it.
--
There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
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Stefx
Moons of Pluto
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Posted - 2008.03.24 19:56:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Stefx on 24/03/2008 19:57:41
Edited by: Stefx on 24/03/2008 19:57:18
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
AFAIK you can also just demand to be boss/fleet leader or whatever it is called these days, so that any invites have to be done by you.
If the scammer is in a corp at war with his wardec pals, won't you become a valid war target anyway, regardless if you are the fleet leader or not?
This is from the FAQ regarding Aggression and flagging
Aggression flagging
Quote:
Gangs and wars
If you are in a gang with a person who is at war:-
- You may not attack if your gangmate is attacked by the other warring corporation;
- You are open to attack from the other warring corporation (although they have no way of seeing you are in a gang)
- Should you be attacked by a member of the warring corporation you may defend yourself.
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MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc |
Nekopyat
Moons of Pluto
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Posted - 2008.03.24 21:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Stefx
If the scammer is in a corp at war with his wardec pals, won't you become a valid war target anyway, regardless if you are the fleet leader or not?
True, but you can at least check ahead of time and say 'sorry, you are at war so I'm not comfortable helping you'. It also prevents a non-wardeced peep from adding in warring characters after you have joined.
So at least it makes helping a newbie in a newbie corp safer.
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.03.25 02:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Stefx
If the scammer is in a corp at war with his wardec pals, won't you become a valid war target anyway, regardless if you are the fleet leader or not?
If you are the gang leader you do the inviting. So all you need to do then is just invite the individual that asked for the help to begin with. Assist and it will be fine, unless they decide to gank you instead.
Slade
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MACCHES
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.25 11:03:00 -
[24]
What a fantastic scam!
You see this is why I like EVE, it encourages the worst out of players, and rewards those with no moral fibre and borderline criminal psychology.
In almost every other MMO I'd happily try and help someone that needed it, whether it was collecting their stuff, or listening to a ludicrous plee-for-ISK-story about their virtual grandmother requiring her 4th hip replacement (The first 2 dissolved in the bath when she used tirps instead of soap).
I haven't played a less-trustworthy MMO since Ultima Online. When players were repeatedly beckoned into player houses, only to have said-helpful players move a cupboard in front of the door, lock it down, and then murder the crap out of poor gullible fools.
Conclusion: The trick is not to discriminate. Hate everybody with equal prejudice, just to be sure. 
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**Insert Pirate-themed remark** |
Myra Rodan
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.03.25 19:40:00 -
[25]
Originally by: FarScape III
I actually get the impression that CCP does not GET this scam, they keep saying to just read the warning that comes up when you join, but they don't get it that it happens AFTER you join.
CCP is right about that one.
The two corps in question would have to have declared war at least 24 hours previous to running the scam so that they are allowed to freely shoot eachother. When you join a fleet, the window that pops up states whether anyone currently in the gang is at war or not, so you know then.
If what happens (I've never been hit by this scam) is you are helping a char in a newb corp, and after you join, people who are in corps that are at war join up as well, there are a couple REALLY easy ways to avoid that.
1. You do the fleet invite, which means they won't have the ability to invite others in to the fleet.
2. Join up on their invite, have them go to where they need help, warp to them and while in warp leave the gang. Just keep talking to them in pm or local. Do this no matter what, even if they are genuine. Then you can say 'glad to help, I don't need any reward' because you already got the bounties on all the ships there.
Selling and delivering boosters anywhere in Eve. |
Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.03.25 20:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Myra Rodan
2. Join up on their invite, have them go to where they need help, warp to them and while in warp leave the gang. Just keep talking to them in pm or local. Do this no matter what, even if they are genuine. Then you can say 'glad to help, I don't need any reward' because you already got the bounties on all the ships there.
This is actually the best and easiest way I have heard to avoid the Lofty.
Slade
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.03.25 21:58:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Myra Rodan
2. Join up on their invite, have them go to where they need help, warp to them and while in warp leave the gang. Just keep talking to them in pm or local. Do this no matter what, even if they are genuine. Then you can say 'glad to help, I don't need any reward' because you already got the bounties on all the ships there.
This is actually the best and easiest way I have heard to avoid the Lofty.
Except that it's not, because you stay flagged until you dock. If they act quickly with the subsequent invites, you can be flagged before you leave the gang, and will still be flagged when you come out of warp (whether you are in the gang or not). So you need to take proactive steps to defend against it as noted above (be the leader of the corp and invite the single person who isn't at war, or just don't fleet up at all and ask for a bookmark to be traded to you).
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Venkul Mul
Vikramaditya
DO JAJA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.25 22:27:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: FarScape III
I actually get the impression that CCP does not GET this scam, they keep saying to just read the warning that comes up when you join, but they don't get it that it happens AFTER you join.
I would say that they not only get it; but probably have tested this tactic, for the least, to see how it works. So to say that they are unfamiliar with how it works is a stretch.
Some potential usefull tactics to help safen up a situtation if you are a pilot that likes to assist newer players in the game but are a little unsure of wether or not the need for help is genuine.
- The age of the character is of no consequence. The problem arises from additional members, that are at war with the individual you are helping, that join the gang are then able to attacke you. Said "exploiters" have an alt in an alt corp that is war decked by them. So if you are helping a new player it is not a guarantee that they are not an alt. So use, one or more of the following tactics to minimize, and I say minimize, your risk.
- Stay in station when you join and check the gang for aqdditional gang members. If there is more then one pilot then leave the gang.
- Have the pilot fly back to station and trade you a bookmark in station then go to mission space without a gang.
- If you do join gang and warp to the member then warp to a "safer" distance say 50-100 km and get ready to align the minute you come out of warp. If new members join gang or there are extra pilots in said space align and warp out or log off for a good while.
- Get info on the type and level of mission. If it is a newer player in a level 1-3 then you do not need to take a very expensive ship to assist. Take something expendable.
- Fit a tank that will assist with PvP and be ready to loose it.
Yes it is easy to get blown up with this player option/scam/exploit, but take a few precautions and you should be able to minimize the chances for loss on your side.
Slade
If they are asking for help:
1) always be the one forming the gang (and don't activate the self invite feature) soi you can refuse other people joining up;
2) check the character: if he is in a NPC corp he can't have a war running, so no problem; if he is in a PC corporation, check if they or the alliance they are part of are at war with someone (corporations->wars->other wars).
At that point it is almost impossible to get a Lofty against you.
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Barashi Nugan
The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2008.03.27 18:47:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Except that it's not, because you stay flagged until you dock. If they act quickly with the subsequent invites, you can be flagged before you leave the gang, and will still be flagged when you come out of warp (whether you are in the gang or not)...
I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this, unless it was changed in a recent patch.
I've had the lofty scam tried on me several times, and leaving the gang while in warp has thwarted it each time.
I'd assume that if I was still flagged to them, the group of evil-do'ers at the end of the warp tunnel would have reduced my BC/BS to slag instead of unlocking me and ranting in the convo.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:52:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Barashi Nugan
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Except that it's not, because you stay flagged until you dock. If they act quickly with the subsequent invites, you can be flagged before you leave the gang, and will still be flagged when you come out of warp (whether you are in the gang or not)...
I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this, unless it was changed in a recent patch.
I've had the lofty scam tried on me several times, and leaving the gang while in warp has thwarted it each time.
I'd assume that if I was still flagged to them, the group of evil-do'ers at the end of the warp tunnel would have reduced my BC/BS to slag instead of unlocking me and ranting in the convo.
Interesting - and good news if so. I've never been part of a Lofty scam myself, so I'm going on what others have said. I have heard it definitively said that the only way to not be ganked while you are in-warp and flagged is to Ctrl-Q, so it's definitely something I'd pass on to people who are considering their options.
It is possible that you left the gang before both warring members were invited, which would have meant you were never flagged at all, as opposed to being flagged and then losing that flag as you left the gang. If you didn't wait around to see who joined the gang and then checked their war status, it's impossible to tell which of these happened.
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