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Heavy Interdictors Reality check

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April Knox COLD-Wing The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.03.23 22:54:00 - [31] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton there was a very nice news post that went over exactly how hics were being used. normally news posts are LOL or meh, but this was woo! Would you mind posting the url Mister?
Noisrevbus Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:00:00 - [32] This discussion have two opposing arguements that are floating out to complete extremes now. There's no denying that the H-Dictors revolutionarily changed the playing field for lowsec logistics, completely shifting the balance between predator and prey, and should be every pirate's wet dream. At the same time you should ask the question if this shouldn't be the case. EVE is not a solo game, and numbers should mean something. If you look overall at the H-D (and overlook all discussion about wether the sole intention was to tackle capitals drifting into empire or not) i find the new strategic options they provided to be exciting and mostly balanced overall. Numbers should mean something, and specializing a group into something should be enough to catch solo players, even if they too invest heavily into their ambition. Can you make a group that is very difficult to outrun based around a H-D? Yes you can. Is it a blockade runners nightmare? Yes it is. There is however not a given chance of catching even the fastest ships, possibly not even a good one. There is on the other hand no longer a good chance to outrun it either - which means both 'sides' invest heavily into one factor and none come up with a very reliable efficiency. That equal into good balance in my eyes, a 50/50 relation - only that neither side consider 50% to be reliable enough when investing so heavily into a single factor. A lone runner still have a decent chance, just not a good chance. A runner with a scout (or other forms of advance intel) still have a good chance - against a remote boosted H-D blockade.
April Knox COLD-Wing The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:06:00 - [33] Originally by: Noisrevbus This discussion have two opposing arguements that are floating out to complete extremes now. There's no denying that the H-Dictors revolutionarily changed the playing field for lowsec logistics, completely shifting the balance between predator and prey, and should be every pirate's wet dream. At the same time you should ask the question if this shouldn't be the case. EVE is not a solo game, and numbers should mean something. If you look overall at the H-D (and overlook all discussion about wether the sole intention was to tackle capitals drifting into empire or not) i find the new strategic options they provided to be exciting and mostly balanced overall. Numbers should mean something, and specializing a group into something should be enough to catch solo players, even if they too invest heavily into their ambition. Can you make a group that is very difficult to outrun based around a H-D? Yes you can. Is it a blockade runners nightmare? Yes it is. There is however not a given chance of catching even the fastest ships, possibly not even a good one. There is on the other hand no longer a good chance to outrun it either - which means both 'sides' invest heavily into one factor and none come up with a very reliable efficiency. That equal into good balance in my eyes, a 50/50 relation - only that neither side consider 50% to be reliable enough when investing so heavily into a single factor. A lone runner still have a decent chance, just not a good chance. A runner with a scout (or other forms of advance intel) still have a good chance - against a remote boosted H-D blockade. Good contribution Mr. Noisrevbus. This is the kind of arguments I wanted to hear. The people above assumed I wanted a nerf (which I do not) but instead a discussion and reality check. Your contribution is awesome.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:11:00 - [34] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/03/2008 23:12:18 Originally by: April Knox Good contribution Mr. Noisrevbus. This is the kind of arguments I wanted to hear. The people above assumed I wanted a nerf (which I do not) but instead a discussion and reality check. Your contribution is awesome. Originally by: "April Knox" I know they are awesome ships, but I think CCP needs to recheck them, in particular that "Infinite Point Tackle" script. Not only WCStabs were rendered useless with the appearance of Heavy Interdictors (Originally intended to tackle Capital Ships, they are as common as interceptors nowadays). Not only WCStabs were rendered useless but the whole Blockade Runner class as well. So CCP is encouraging the use of alts to scout possible gatecamps (since it's now the only viable option) or either they should do a reality check for Heavy Interdictors. Originally by: April Knox I think a good solution would be to give them instead of "Infinite Points" only a single point that can work on capitals. So tell me what part of this isn't asking for HICs to be nerfed? Don't you only offer "solutions" if there's a "problem"? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
April Knox COLD-Wing The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:14:00 - [35] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/03/2008 23:12:18 So tell me what part of this isn't asking for HICs to be nerfed? Don't you only offer "solutions" if there's a "problem"? -Liang Mr. Noisrevbus argument convinced me, while yours did not
Bodhisattvas Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:14:00 - [36] Originally by: April Knox Yep. CCP is contradicting themselves by having something called "Blockade Runners" that can't run any blockade at all nowadays. Why have you guys always got to exaggerate to prove a point. When in fact the only thing you manage to prove is your inexperiance on any choosen subject. Low sec high sec any blockade runner pilot with the appropiate skills and modules will not get caught running gates. As described on forums previously, anyone wanting to run a gate merely needs inertia mods on low a mwd and a cloak to bypass even the biggest of camps.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:17:00 - [37] Originally by: April Knox Mr. Noisrevbus argument convinced me, while yours did not Well, now that it's all settled, here, have a flower: -----,----`----,---{@ -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
April Knox COLD-Wing The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Bodhisattvas Originally by: April Knox Yep. CCP is contradicting themselves by having something called "Blockade Runners" that can't run any blockade at all nowadays. Why have you guys always got to exaggerate to prove a point. When in fact the only thing you manage to prove is your inexperiance on any choosen subject. Low sec high sec any blockade runner pilot with the appropiate skills and modules will not get caught running gates. As described on forums previously, anyone wanting to run a gate merely needs inertia mods on low a mwd and a cloak to bypass even the biggest of camps. I admit it, I exaggerated. Again, I stated I'm not a hundredth percent BR pilot myself, I fly ceptors 99% of the time. That's why I was asking for perspectives and comments, both on how to counter HICs and how people are using them. That was the original point of this post. And Noisrevbus post was highly constructive.
Hallowed ground State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:26:00 - [39] I agree with the op. Every Module in this game has a counter except the infinipoint of the HIC. WCS are a direct counter to warp scram. The introduction of HIC create a system where a single ship class makes an entire system of modules and counter modules obsolete. It also made the tanks of a gate camp much stronger. No reason to fit a scram on a gate ship anymore when hics counter an infinite number of WCS. Now shield tankers have one extra mid to tank sentries and armor tankers can fit an extra cap module to rep their armor tanks. The inifiniopoint was designed to scram super caps, it should be strictly relagated to that role.
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:29:00 - [40] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Grimpak ok I think someone here is not getting the point. and I'm not talking about liang, whom while I sometimes get "wtf?" about some stuff, I am pretty sure that knows how the game is. LOL Grimpak. <3 You know what's really funny is that we could probably get most of the major forum personalities together on a vent server somewhere and hammer out virtually all of the disagreements between us. Well, there'd still be a certain amount of forum politicking (such as keeping someone else from getting a boost, or obtaining one yourself)... but I think most of us have roughly the same opinions. -Liang meh, it's just a matter of different points of view. and since my objective is to train for practically every ship in EVE, the point is that I would like each race to do actually a different thing, or at least a different flavor (the recent case of boosting the zealot pretty much made it a deimos with a different flavor, imho, and that's a good thing). and slapping the forum personalities in a vent server wouldn't do any good. a roundtable at the EVE fanfest (I intend to go to this year's) would be nicer, and much more productive. anyways back on topic: Noisrevbus said it all. tbh this topic is pretty much killed after it. --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:31:00 - [41] Originally by: Hallowed ground Every Module in this game has a counter except the infinipoint of the HIC. Modules without counters: - Passive shield tanking - MWD/AB - Tracking Disruptors (falloff) - Target painters (barring halo sets) - Webs - Tractor beams Quote: The introduction of HIC create a system where a single ship class makes an entire system of modules and counter modules obsolete. Go read the thread. Quote: It also made the tanks of a gate camp much stronger. No reason to fit a scram on a gate ship anymore when hics counter an infinite number of WCS. WTF? Most PVP ships armor tank. Quote: Now shield tankers have one extra mid to tank sentries and armor tankers can fit an extra cap module to rep their armor tanks. Um, right. Because all PVP ships are fitting cap rechargers. Quote: The inifiniopoint was designed to scram super caps, it should be strictly relagated to that role. No, it shouldn't. If a HIC can actually catch a BR, then the BR screwed the pooch, so to speak. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Clueless Alt Republic University	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:41:00 - [42] Nice catfight.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.24 00:20:00 - [43] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 24/03/2008 00:20:18 I must admit that the hic has turned out to be less of a problem than I expected. I've only lost one ship, a missioning domi to a broadsword (and company). Circumstances were most idiotic on my part. While I have limited experience, what I found is that flying a blockade runner pretty much makes you immune (aside from the possibility of bad luck or fatfingering) to the usual gate camps in low sec. I've never had someone lock me. And the blockade runner doesn't seem to be magic here. With MWD, cloak, and a ship that aligns in under 10 secs, I think I can blow through any normal low sec gatecamp whether it has a hic or not. I don't have experience with running 0.0 gatecamps, but I assume I'd die pretty often. Might go to one of the popular 0.0 gatecamps with a new jump clone and run (or not as the case may be) a bunch of tech 1 frigs through it.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.24 00:38:00 - [44] Edited by: General Coochie on 24/03/2008 00:38:38 Originally by: Hallowed ground I agree with the op. Every Module in this game has a counter except the infinipoint of the HIC. WCS are a direct counter to warp scram. The introduction of HIC create a system where a single ship class makes an entire system of modules and counter modules obsolete. It also made the tanks of a gate camp much stronger. No reason to fit a scram on a gate ship anymore when hics counter an infinite number of WCS. Now shield tankers have one extra mid to tank sentries and armor tankers can fit an extra cap module to rep their armor tanks. The inifiniopoint was designed to scram super caps, it should be strictly relagated to that role. Just as you can tank dps not only with reppers (but also with speed) you can avoid getting warp scrambled by moving out of the warp disruptor's range, or cloak and then jump. Don't tell me speed isn't a viable tactic as it is one of the reasons why ppl love nanoships. You don't need a warp core stabilizer to counter a warp scrambler, but it is one of the counters. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Rastigan Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.24 01:42:00 - [45] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: April Knox Put at least 4 Scan Resolution Sensor Boosters on an Onix and you have a faster locking time than most interceptors. And a tank that can't tank sentry guns. -Liang Just have some random plated cruiser (normally a blackbird) with 6 remote sensor boosters on that HIC, lets you have a fast lock time AND a tank. Any good blockade runner shouldnt get caught in anything other than a bubble or really bad luck anyways..
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 01:56:00 - [46] Originally by: Rastigan Just have some random plated cruiser (normally a blackbird) with 6 remote sensor boosters on that HIC, lets you have a fast lock time AND a tank. Any good blockade runner shouldnt get caught in anything other than a bubble or really bad luck anyways.. So then you require an unaggressed cruiser So then you can only catch someone every 15 minutes when the cruiser in question becomes deaggressed? Might be useful occasionally, but I doubt it's really a viable tactic without a logistics or two sitting on the gate. And then the BR got caught by a bunch of people, not a random lonely HIC. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
AndrewRyan Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.24 02:25:00 - [47] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Hallowed ground Every Module in this game has a counter except the infinipoint of the HIC. Modules without counters: - Passive shield tanking - MWD/AB - Tracking Disruptors (falloff) - Target painters (barring halo sets) - Webs - Tractor beams Im missing the reason why tractor beams need a counter, do we need counters to mining lasers and salvagers to? ========================================= A Man chooses, a slave obeys.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 02:40:00 - [48] Originally by: AndrewRyan Im missing the reason why tractor beams need a counter, do we need counters to mining lasers and salvagers to? What, you've never had tractor wars with corpmates when cleaning up a mission? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
AndrewRyan Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.24 03:18:00 - [49] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: AndrewRyan Im missing the reason why tractor beams need a counter, do we need counters to mining lasers and salvagers to? What, you've never had tractor wars with corpmates when cleaning up a mission? -Liang Your seriously suggesting a mod should have a counter because of horseplay between corpmates in PVE cleanups? ========================================= A Man chooses, a slave obeys.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 03:21:00 - [50] Originally by: AndrewRyan Your seriously suggesting a mod should have a counter because of horseplay between corpmates in PVE cleanups? No, I was providing examples (randomly) of modules that don't have counters. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
AndrewRyan Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.24 03:31:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: AndrewRyan Your seriously suggesting a mod should have a counter because of horseplay between corpmates in PVE cleanups? No, I was providing examples (randomly) of modules that don't have counters. -Liang So its safe to say that portion of your post is a bad and inapplicable reference? so which parts of your posts are relevant and applicable arguments or are they all codswallop? ========================================= A Man chooses, a slave obeys.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 03:33:00 - [52] Originally by: AndrewRyan So its safe to say that portion of your post is a bad and inapplicable reference? so which parts of your posts are relevant and applicable arguments or are they all codswallop? So is it safe to say that you're simply trying to "pick a bone" because my post utterly wtfpwns the post I was referring to? =) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
AndrewRyan	Posted - 2008.03.24 03:38:00 - [53] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: AndrewRyan So its safe to say that portion of your post is a bad and inapplicable reference? so which parts of your posts are relevant and applicable arguments or are they all codswallop? So is it safe to say that you're simply trying to "pick a bone" because my post utterly wtfpwns the post I was referring to? =) -Liang I call it as I see it, by your own admission your statement was filled (at least partly) with random and irrelevant arguments. ========================================= A Man chooses, a slave obeys.
Gantrithor105 Acerbus Vindictum Nex Super Vos	Posted - 2008.03.24 04:12:00 - [54] I'm gonna call it here and say andrew knows (or is) april... maybe it just seems that way because he's taken her place in a back and forth argument which is going nowhere... ANYWAYS... There have been valid points provided on both sides, however having flown a broadsword, I can say that it's just not possible to catch everyone, and they aren't the be-all-end-all, even in a decent gang.
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 04:17:00 - [55] Originally by: Liang Nuren Modules without counters: - Passive shield tanking - MWD/AB - Tracking Disruptors (falloff) - Target painters (barring halo sets) - Webs - Tractor beams -Liang Not to pick a bone but . . . Isn't WEB the counter to MWD/AB, along with Cap warfare? And it never occured to me to try to tractor a wreck a corpie was also tractoring. . . But I guess Marauders provide the counter for that. . . ?
AndrewRyan Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.24 04:20:00 - [56] Originally by: Gantrithor105 I'm gonna call it here and say andrew knows (or is) april... maybe it just seems that way because he's taken her place in a back and forth argument which is going nowhere... ANYWAYS... There have been valid points provided on both sides, however having flown a broadsword, I can say that it's just not possible to catch everyone, and they aren't the be-all-end-all, even in a decent gang. Call whatever you like but I would just like to inform you that your assumptions are wrong. ========================================= A Man chooses, a slave obeys.
KaptnSparrow Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.03.24 04:43:00 - [57] hics are fine, the last two hours: viator - got away viator - got away prowler - got away viator - got away rifter - got away shuttle - got away i had two sensor booster II with targeting speed script and have quite good skills . I used a phobos and even if I would get a lock, the blockade runner outrun me, can get to the gate in time. seriously there is no problem at all. ( i did not get a lock on a blockade runner sofar the only reason they would die is that the server/pilot screws something up)
Megan Maynard Out of Order	Posted - 2008.03.24 05:08:00 - [58] Lost a hound to a gate camp right after trinity patch was applied. Didn't have my overview set with the new ship classes so it didn't show up on scan. Warped into the gate thinking I could just jump. WHOOPS. HIC's are nasty things, and they do their job exactly like they should. Don't change them. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.03.24 07:17:00 - [59] WHy dont u nano the blockade runner put a cloak on ... Double click align to next gate , mwd cloak (after 10 seconds you should be out of the hvy dictor range) then uncloak mwd some more then warp. Stop complaining and find a solution because solutions are out there ! Uber idea solves all !!
tartrus Filthy Scum	Posted - 2008.03.24 09:09:00 - [60] Edited by: tartrus on 24/03/2008 09:10:25 I have a pirate broadsword char and a viator flying char and there nothing wrong with ether ship. my viator can almost insta warp, can do the mwd cloak trick or just go so darn fast u can catch it, the only way to loose this ship is human error lag or bad fitting. on the other side my pirate char even with sen booters fitted has a next to impossible time locking them before warp then i cant fit webs mwd 2 or 3 sen boosters and tank, but then if your talking about multible ship camp thats a differant discussion

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