Good ideas, but the best possible thing that could be done would be getting rid of Drone alloy; cut away the bad befotre you add the good eh?

well i really want the mining drones to be used more then they do atm, therefor i made it a 500% bonus yield so they bring up alot more minerals

This is what I've imagined should be used in Moon Mining, Something that has to be docked when you log out at the end of the day, Kinda like the ship from the new Star Trek Movie.

Good ideas, but the best possible thing that could be done would be getting rid of Drone alloy; cut away the bad before you add the good eh?

Cool.

I agree, but increasing the amount of minerals you mine is ultimately no different than having a lower limit

well i really want the mining drones to be used more then they do atm, therefor i made it a 500% bonus yield so they bring up alot more minerals

Not those kinds of drones. Paragon is talking about rogue drone regions in null where "mining" can already been done with a variety of caps by shooting rogue drones and looting the alloys that drop.

But seriously, the problem with mining isn't the lack of ships, it's the material distribution and the fact that what miners do is somewhat obsoleted by those ratting in rogue drone space (and to a lesser degree mission loot drops). Plus, there's the whole snoozefest mining mechanics thing that's automated incredibly easily which means bots. AND ratting bots in drone regs. So, a ship isn't the solution for the problem mining is facing.

Might want to read this recent thread afore you assume it's "all rosey" with drone alloy removal.

The mining 'buff' fallacy

well thats only drone region.

Interesting.

Unfortunately it's also totally wrong

I cannot stress enough how bad the drone regions are for the mining profession

yeah but the discussion about drone region and drone alloys isnt this discussion.

The topic is very relevant to your proposal OP as it discusses the ideas behind improving mining yields or redistribution of minerals. Which since your idea suggests improvement to yields with a capital mining ship should be of interest to you.

The increase of price following the buff will attract more miners-to-be and the price will eventually lower as the demand is sated, then miners will leave as it becomes less lucrative, then they will be drawn back as it gets more expensive.........

yes, drone region can farm minerals with normal capital ships in large number, but the rest of new eden doesnt.
so if you want to discuss this, make a new topic or join the old topic. this topic is for this ship and how it can be very usefull

Though we have yet to see this supposed shift in behaviour which ideally was the reson for the change in the first place, granted I will let time run it's course, but the interesting shift in mineral prices is of note.

Doesn't address the added inflation due to increased bounties or the idea of removing resource possibilites form other areas of space regardless of how slight they are though.

However, I cannot deny the theoretical improvement that drone poo removal can shift to improve mining possibilities.

However, at the moment I'm simply capatalising on this with the combined efforts of the Hulkageddon influence, since as a result of something going on in the market, certain mineral prices and mining/hauler prices are increasing. It is certainly one to watch however, especially if it significantly starts to effect goods prices generally in the market as a result.

it wont inflict the market that much since it will require alot of hauling to get it to highsec. the only market that will be effected is the local markets in nullsec. but tbh every nullsec corp/alliance will prob use this ship to get people farm minerals for them so that they dont have to haul them from highsec with a high chance of getting popped.
it also gives miners a chance to get into nullsec without having to spend ages training combat skills while they dont want to

In which case I'd see it as a significant imbalance in the game and the risk/reward model. As you are then not only heavily skewing yields but moreso in certain areas and making it easier or less risky to do so theoretically as I imagine is your intended design.

its a capital mining. its easily gankable and if all nullsec corps have one, will will balance itself. but good luck discussing the ow so worthy subject about drone region because you seem to like that more. i will stfu now and repost it tomorrow

first of all, if you read my post good, i said it can only be used in lowsec and nullsec
secondly, i used to be in nullsec mining almost all day long. we didnt hauled 1 trit of it to highsec cause we used it to build station and capitals. just like 99% of the miners in nullsec atm, they all use their minerals in that way.

so in conclusion, the only thing different will be that there will be more capitals and maybe more stations and less hauling. but it wont really affect the highsec markets since it cant be used in highsec and lowsec will prob be a bit risky since its still a capital.

and uhm, better not take this personal, that last statement you made is really not the point.

first of all, if you read my post good, i said it can only be used in lowsec and nullsec

secondly, i used to be in nullsec mining almost all day long. we didnt hauled 1 trit of it to highsec cause we used it to build station and capitals. just like 99% of the miners in nullsec atm, they all use their minerals in that way.

so in conclusion, the only thing different will be that there will be more capitals and maybe more stations and less hauling. but it wont really affect the highsec markets since it cant be used in highsec and lowsec will prob be a bit risky since its still a capital.

and uhm, better not take this personal, that last statement you made is really not the point.

So it's only in nullsec then (because, honestly, low isn't worth it).



Anecdotal evidence, at best. But you're on the right track to some degree. I'd wager that whilst you (or your directors, whoever) didn't sell trit, you/your corp/your alliance sold highends, and used the isk to buy trit/lowends (or 425mm guns, or whatever else makes for good mineral compression).



More capitals are probably a "bad thing" (especially "more supers"). More stations are probably also a bad thing (hell, they seem pretty prevalent as it is already. Used to be lucky if you could get one to a region).

This can adversely affect the mineral markets in hisec (think about it ... rather than you buying 400m trit in Jita for your next toy, you mine it instead). Though, I wouldn't mind seeing trit prices come back down

at the moment, most of the minerals is comming from the drone region, not form the other regions. simply because they use the minerals by there own to build ships, capitals and station. so this will not effect the market since (you said this yourself) drone region wont get these miners since they kill drones and get their minerals from the loot.

so please, come with a valid argument.

roflysst ....... Erm, if you actually spent two seconds to actually read the topic you'd see that the drone regions or gun mining has been seriously nerfed due to crucible. That's really what part of the discussion was about and its knock on effects. As a result, now is probably a very good time for mining as a result of those changes. Way to go with knowing what your talking about.

And apart form that you are saying that to compensate for an imbalance in null sec is to make it worse?



Have done with many, you seem to simply be in denial about them.

atm mining in nullsec isnt done that much and even is it is, the minerals are used for own use in 99% of the cases. unless you come with good proof to say its otherwise, then please show me.

this ship is simply designed to give the miners a chance to get into eve alot easier and also help nullsec to fuel themselfs, just like W-space can be (although you might want to haul out of w-space once or twice a week to sell your loot).

So you are saying that virtually all the ABC minerals on the main hubs in high sec is supplied from non null sources. All the tech 2 and the moon goo items required to build them is supplied from outside of null sec.

Unaware of any fueling capabilities in W-Space as far as I'm aware they are dependant on ICE from elsewhere. Also with the reduced mass capabilites afforded to worm holes it would likley mean that the required ships needed to successfully gank this capital might be limited as a result to sub capital class ships in WH space needed to effect them. (At least with the current designs, not if certain current CSM plans get underway of course).

so either come up with some new arguments or just close your mouth and move on, because we are atm running in circles here....

For which you are responsible for since you arent proving anything to support your claims and hold nothing but a biased argument whilst in denial and showing a distinct lack of knowledge or awareness about the game.

Not fooling anyone bud about simply being passionate about "forcing" your idea through however.

im pritty sure i got more experience then you do. i at least played longer then 3 months ;-)
and btw, no1 can proof that this ship will or will not affect the market, since thats the future (and last i checked there is no way of going into the future).
but it seems that you are just out of arguments atm so you are trying to take it personal (aka "lack of knowledge or awareness about the game"), which is not that impressive and is not going to bring you any fame or what so ever.

so this discussion is over since you failed and went over to personal insults. good day.

all the minerals i mined was used in capital build and 1 station (1N-FJ8). and more capitals doesnt matter, since they are needed for battles in nullsec so they will eventually pop. and station, whats a bad thing about that?

When I lived down in null (a few years back), all the mins I mined were used in NOL-M9, J-LPX7, and (obviously) the super production POSes that were in the area, and I know that the alliance brought down **** TONNES of lowends from hisec (oh, the horrors of doing that before the days of JFs).

Capitals are already highly prevalent, they don't need to be made easier for nullsec people to obtain (they're already pretty "easy" as it is). Seriously, there's already enough of a wall for empire entities to get into nullsec without it being even easier for nullsec alliances to crank out (super)caps.

Now, what you're failing to take into account (which the rest of us are) is that while this won't change the drone regions, it WILL change what the other regions are importing. You *HAVE* to take that into account -- Jita moves something like a trillion units of trit per day, at 4+ ISK/unit. Taking say 25% of that out of the equation means that the (inflated) trit prices will start falling back to ~3 ISK/unit. And then that's just trit we're talking about ... the same thing will happen for all the other minerals (even the highends -- just because you aren't exporting to empire, doesn't mean other alliances aren't).

it wont be easier to get capitals made. its just that instead of hauling it, you mine it

^ i didnt left this out. if you read back i fully said that drone region prob wont have these miners since they get minerals out of loot from drones. it will only change for the regions that are hauling. also, like you said it yourself, in the other regions the minerals are used for own build, not for sales. so the market prices wont really chance. besides that, since incursion yield so much money, everything will go up in price.

ugh, no... you have it backwards. I'm just making up BS numbers here to keep things simple.

Alliance A lives in Branch. They're building (super)capitals by importing lowends, and exporting excess hi-ends (because they have a huge abundance). They're importing 1 billion trit, 500m pyer, 250m mex, 125m iso from Jita (i.e. buy in Jita, use in Branch).

Jita moves 10b trit, 5b Pyer, 2,5b mex, and 1.25b Iso in the same timeframe. Prices are stable at 4/5/50/63 (i.e. supply and demand are close enough that the prices move +/- a negligible amount every 2-week cycle).

Your new ship gets put in game. Alliance A gets their miners into one (however many miners it happens to be). Since Trit/Pyer/Mex/Iso are all easier to mine, rather than import ... they stop going to Jita.

Jita still moves the same number of mins in a 2 week period, but since the demand drops by 10%, the prices start coming down. No biggie, right?

Well, now, alliance B (who was supplying Jita lowends) has gotten their hands on one of these ... and INCREASES their bi-weekly production by 15%. Now the supply in jita is at least 15 percent ABOVE demand ... and prices start coming down some more.

After a while (and the nullsec alliances start spamming these like crazy), Jita starts ONLY supplying hisec buyers... the demand falls to say 25% of what it used to be ... but the supply is now 50% higher than what it used to be...

sure, cheap minerals are great in making cheap ships and the pvp guys are happy ... but now think about the rookie miner pulling in 100m3 of veldspar every minute in his probe, and having to sell it at 2 ISK (or lower) per unit because the demand just isn't there...

However, my miner (since its not overpowered)

so imagine a capital ship with the following specs:

4 Highslots -> 3 turret hardpoints and 1 for something else like a drone range extender (i will explain why in a second)
5 Midslots -> for shieldtanking and maybe a survey scanner
3 Lowslots -> for cargospace extenders and maybe a damage control if you want
3 Rigslots -> just like any other capital ship

75000 HP Shield (with a recharge of 20000 seconds)
50000 HP Armor
125000 HP Structure

15000 m3 Cargohold
75 m3 Dronehold
50 Mbit/s Bandwidth

Capital Mining Ship Skill Bonus:
5% Increased yield from Capital Mining Laser per level (which i will give the specs of shortly)
5% Increased Shield Resistance per level

Ship Role Bonus:
500% Increased yield from Mining Drones (since these are used way too little)
500% Increased scan range of the Survey Scanner

And now the Capital Mining Laser specs:

Highslot (obvious)
2500m3 Yield
5 minute Cycle Time
enough powergrid usage so that other ships cant fit it (or have the ship get a bonus like -99,9% powergrid usage)
decent CPU usage

moonmining is really something that should be dont by a structure, not a capital ship. and btw, this isnt starwars. we dont blow up worlds with a giant laser

I wont use general skills to boost these values as it will be effectively the same effective change at level 5.
But the drone yields of for the capital of +500% will certainly add to the process.

So in effect the use of this ship will make it over double if not approaching triple the effectiveness of a hulk by yields alone. So in theory making it potentially possible for miners in null sec to generate 2 to 3 more times the mining material than before.
.

indeed it will be 3x efficient but dont forget, its a capita ship. it will take a long time to train for it and it will take a good amount of money to get one. take for example the Carrier. the upgrade from a Battleship to Carrier is also a great upgrade (similar to the upgrade from the Hulk to this Capital Miner). but its allowed and not overpowered since you have a long skill and need alot of money for it.

also what some forget is that there will still be some hauling. nullsec miners mine ABC before everything else. therefor nullsec alliances dont have enough lowend minerals to compare with the high ends. so either they sell some of the highends, or just buy a good amount of lowends and haul them and increase they capital build.

^last post

a good hulk miner mines for around 25mill on Arkonor ore at current prices per hour at current prices. however since there isnt enough he also has to mine bistot and crokite etc so this drops to a steady 17,5mill per hour.

a good BS pilot can make around 20mill/hour doing anomaly's in nullsec. its low but its what they should at least make per hour.

if you upgrade the hulk to the capital miner, you get 3x the yield so 52,5mill/hour avarage.

if you put the BS pilot in a carrier and let him do anomaly's, you can EASILY get 60-80mill/hour <- saw it myself back in nullsec

besides that, you can also run Incursion with a faction BS and get 120mill/hour in highsec. <- and this i know for sure since im doing that myself at the moment.

so really, if you look at it its nothing more then getting mining up to a career in eve that profitable and not only be done by botters.

here's the thing, you keep going into what the effects will be. but thats just a yes-no game since we both have our own idea's of what will happen. also no1 will know because it hasnt happened yet.
i already tried to find info about when the hulk came into the game, but found not much.... else i couldve used that to compare the effects.
so simply lets stop this, and focus on how to improve this ship shall we?

Supply and Demand

The market mechanism

Welcome to basic economics, which suprisingly enough in a player driven model like EvE is in effect.

urgh -.- you cant let it rest cant you? we already went over this topic, and even the most wise economist cant predict what will happen simply because there is not enough info of where the minerals in jita are comming from (i believe most comes from drone region, which wont be effected by this miner, and the highsec botter, which also wont be effected) and where the minerals are going to.
if you give me data on those things, then we can really work it out, if not, then we simply CANT. so you can keep whining about the economy without having a clue how it all sticks together or just focus if this ship (THE SHIP not the whole economic system of eve) is not overpowered or has something underpowered maybe.

Believe it or not, Battle On, I've been trying to empower you with information to help you with your development and as an industrialist.

Regardless I see the old addage of "you can lead a horse to water" seems to hold true here.

So I'll leave you to explore your development as you wish, pointless trying to persue balance issues with you on this as you clearly have defined goals for it, so I'll leave you to your "fun" which at this stage seems to be the best approach to take. No hard feelings I hope and all the best in EvE.

Capital ship minning?

1 step: Get close to a small asteroid
2 step: Scoop to cargo bay
3 step:????
4 step: profit!

Just kidding... new ships are always a good adition to the game... the only flaw IMO is that this ship should not use stargates and should use sentry or fighter like minning drones... maybe exumer drones, they should mine and then lauch the ore in a can.

But the adition of this ship will not change much the game... if you realy want to fix economy, what nullsec and low-sec need is a way to kill afk cloackers so there would be more possibility for the minners (add the promissed in the last csm meeting: cloak hunter ship)... and also gives the minning barges more tank.... And remove the minerals droped from the drone land and add bounty to them ( promissed in the last csm meeting). This would fix things allot!

^ uhm no, simply because you didnt gave me info, only your own idea of what will happen. so you clearly dont understand what the song is about

But he is giving you the info. You keep trying to refute it with "but you can't tell the future".

Barges were released in '04 with POS/SOV/Alliances/etc (Exodus).
Exhumers were released in '05 (RMR).

Though it wasn't til '06 (when T2 lottery ended and invention was released) that they became affordable for the masses.



And yeah, you can't know the future 100 percent ... but at the same time, we can postulate what will happen to the mineral market pretty effectively if it things took 1/3 the time to obtain.


edit --> CCP -- fix your damn forums to accept the percent sign

Actually, academic papers on market theory only explain why he holds the view he does, they say nothing about EvE market dynamics.

I do understand economics, and game design.

Having the hulk as top miner made sense at the time, as did keeping it at the top for a long time after, but since then there have been ships added to the combat side that take more minerals to make and draw more isk from the available fountains.

Thus, without hard numbers and historical data beyond what is released in the CCP economic review it is really impossible to call what the net effect of a miner that can out-produce a hulk would be at this stage of the game.

Anyone claiming otherwise is just too impressed with their own cleverness for reasonable discussion.

Having the hulk as top miner made sense at the time, as did keeping it at the top for a long time after, but since then there have been ships added to the combat side that take more minerals to make and draw more isk from the available fountains.

Thus, without hard numbers and historical data beyond what is released in the CCP economic review it is really impossible to call what the net effect of a miner that can out-produce a hulk would be at this stage of the game.

I would say it is a tough choice between this and the idea about the mining structure, which remote reps. I think the repper would have more planning, conflict and be more interesting than just having a huge ship, which could probably be hot dropped and ganked anyway.

well ganking a capital ship is hard, and this one especially since you gotta find it first since it will most likely mine at grav sites. and could you tell me the idea of the so called "Mining structure"? or link the topic? would love to read it.

Risk? what ******* risk is there in mining?

just keep tabs on "known gankers" and don't mine within a few jumps from trade hubs... I mean, seriously, it's not exactly difficult to not get ganked...