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Are they *really* removing Cruise missiles from Frigates?

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Jessica Logan	Posted - 2004.04.15 00:20:00 - [1] Although I'm not using Cruise missiles at the mo, I'm still having a blast (Arf! A pun! FUNNEH!) with my brand spanking new Kestrel. Now then; I keep hearing that Cruise missiles are going to be removed from the dirty little paws of Frigate pilots. Is this true? Just want to get a clarification before I waste nine days training up Missile Launcher Operation 5. :p If it's true....oh well. Should see less 1.0 ganking, at the least.
Carper	Posted - 2004.04.15 00:39:00 - [2] Edited by: Carper on 15/04/2004 00:42:03 I am also training that skill to lvl5, I certainly hope there is no truth in what you have heard as that measure would severely cripple frigates especially with frigate fleet battles on battleships etc. By the way your perception must be through the floor to have to train for nine days!! I am doing it in six!
Jessica Logan	Posted - 2004.04.15 00:44:00 - [3] Quote: Edited by: Carper on 15/04/2004 00:42:03 I am also training that skill to lvl5, I certainly hope there is no truth in what you have heard as that measure would severely cripple frigates especially with frigate fleet battles on battleships etc. By the way your perception must be through the floor to have to train for nine days!! I am doing it in six! My character's attributes are out of whack. :s Perception is low, Willpower is high. Memory is high, Intelligence is low. I have all the learning skills (Except that "2% bonus" thing) at level 4 as well. meh. Ah well, I dun plan to go beyond Frigates and their offspring so I doubt I'll be needing stupidly high stats anyway. ^^
Kin Oreyn	Posted - 2004.04.15 00:58:00 - [4] I don't think they are going to change it anytime soon, mainly because that is the only reason that frigates are a viable PVP option.
Lysender	Posted - 2004.04.15 01:09:00 - [5] Edited by: Lysender on 15/04/2004 01:09:48 GAWD I hope so. Cruise missles on frigates are plain stupid anyways.
Nervar	Posted - 2004.04.15 01:36:00 - [6] Cruise, heavys and torps should bee cruiser and up weapons only, or on the new heavier frig classes like bombers. -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Black Lotus	Posted - 2004.04.15 01:37:00 - [7] Quote: I don't think they are going to change it anytime soon, mainly because that is the only reason that frigates are a viable PVP option. Frigates have plenty of other uses in PVP. Warp scrambling\webifying BS\cruisers till backup arrives, or with backup so the enemy cant get away. ECM. With the upcoming "balances" proposed for frigates\turrets\drones, these balances dont make much sense if a frigate can still use a cruiser\battleship sized missile.
qapchure	Posted - 2004.04.15 01:57:00 - [8] very true, if all these things are Soom(tm) then it would be more balanced if the missles were heavy ship and up weapons...and frigates stuck to their smaller roles as support vessels.
Titan AE	Posted - 2004.04.15 01:59:00 - [9] Somebody is going to have to sedate TomB to get cruise missles off of frigates. I would guess he won't let them get pulled off of kestrals over his cold-dead pirate corpse.
Nariko Tenrai	Posted - 2004.04.15 02:19:00 - [10] Quote: Perception is low, Willpower is high. Memory is high, Intelligence is low. Not to get off topic, but I think this perfectly describes most forum trolls. - - - - I have measured and described the stars, their great and countless multitude. What man has seen their revolutions and entrances? Not even the angels see their number, yet I have recorded all their names. - The Book of the Secrets of Enoch, Jewish Pseudepigrapha We won't talk about how many cruisers I lost this weekend, nor how many nice railguns, or T2 enhancers. We're going to skip right over that. We're going to talk about my new Raven. It is like flying a small city, and the city's only export is missiles. - Azeraphel
Central Maniac	Posted - 2004.04.15 02:44:00 - [11] Hmmm.....I guess you could say its like putting a howitzer on a jeep :-/ Cruse missles are huge and require quite alot of storage. This is why they have dedicated vehicles (in our time) to house them. On the other hand, look at the size of these ships. You could probably fit a cruise missle on the tip of one of the sensors.... I dunno...I haven't got to that part yet so I don't know ;-) %^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^% "Its nice to be important but its more important to be nice" - Scooter
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.04.15 02:54:00 - [12] I will point out that most strike aircraft currently in production carry most of the same array of missiles as modern warships do. You really don't need that big of a missile to cripple a cruiser. About the only surface fired missiles that are significantl;y larger than airborn missiles are high altitude SAMs, and intercontinental warhead delivery systems, and even some of those are airlaunchable. Even the Tomahawk cruise missile only masses in at 2900lbs. The F-15E can carry 24,500 lbs of ordinance, more than enough to mount even modern cruise missiles with the proper mountings and electronics. Short summary, there's no genuine reason to remove cruise missiles or torps from Frigates, aside from BS pilots' fear of being ganked by frigate swarms. Harry Voyager
Bigfoot Hunter	Posted - 2004.04.15 04:54:00 - [13] real life doesnt matter stop brining it up like eve is real life if they do take cruise missels off frigs its because they will be too powerful once bses get the nerf that will make it alot harder for them to hurt frigs -------------------------------------- Fortis cadere, cedere non potest
Seleene	Posted - 2004.04.15 05:36:00 - [14] Cruise missiles on frigates is fine. Why? I like to look at it in comparison to the PT Boats that the US Navy used in WWII. What's wrong with a little, cheap ship packing a few big missiles? A lone frigate, even a Kestrel, can't really hurt more than another frigate or an indy. True, I've managed to kill a few cruisers one on one with my Rifter, but that was because the pilots panicked and didn't run when they could have and got thier ass splattered. En masse, frigates with CMs can be deadly, but that also requires that the pilots work together and thier loadouts compliment each other. What's wrong with this? I think it adds spice to the game. The lone ganker in a Kestrel, or any other frigate, is not really a threat to a good Cruiser or BS pilot most of the time. I can see why people might want heavy missiles to be the upper end loadout on a frigate, but I don't understand why it's necessary to make such a change. - T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today!
Cardassius	Posted - 2004.04.15 07:31:00 - [15] Quote: I will point out that most strike aircraft currently in production carry most of the same array of missiles as modern warships do. You really don't need that big of a missile to cripple a cruiser. About the only surface fired missiles that are significantl;y larger than airborn missiles are high altitude SAMs, and intercontinental warhead delivery systems, and even some of those are airlaunchable. Even the Tomahawk cruise missile only masses in at 2900lbs. The F-15E can carry 24,500 lbs of ordinance, more than enough to mount even modern cruise missiles with the proper mountings and electronics. Short summary, there's no genuine reason to remove cruise missiles or torps from Frigates, aside from BS pilots' fear of being ganked by frigate swarms. Harry Voyager You compare frigates with airplanes, that's kinda weird if you compare Battleships with battleships in the navy. For example frigates in the navy do not carry as big guns as battlecruisers (check the nice guns on those hehe). You cannot compare EVE frigates with airplanes because it's not the same. ASCI Recruiting!
Myko	Posted - 2004.04.15 07:58:00 - [16] i imagine the ability to use cruise missiles will in some way be nerfed on current frigates so that the 'bomber' class elite frigate will have some purpose.
Grimster	Posted - 2004.04.15 08:22:00 - [17] Frigs without cruise will be like strawberries without cream... Can't say I'd stay in frigs IMHO if they nerf the ability to use cruise in one, can you imagine it. "Oh cool, can I fly a frig in this fleet battle, nothing gets me off better than warp scrambling a battleship, and slapping it with my mosquito light missiles....." It's just asking for more "blob wars" as I have said in another thread Here, even groups of 7 or 8 frigs with cruise are no real threat to a well prepared battleship pilot.
Myko	Posted - 2004.04.15 08:32:00 - [18] Edited by: Myko on 15/04/2004 08:40:57 thinking about it some more, maybe cruises will be kept on standard frigs and bombers will be able to carry torpedoes? Its just that if there is a new ship class coming out that specialises in missiles how will it be better than a kestrel? looking at eve-db i hope the bonuses bomber will get changes - a bonus of 15% per level to light missile and rocket ranges ...very useful
Bran Hale	Posted - 2004.04.15 11:30:00 - [19] Quote: real life doesnt matter stop brining it up like eve is real life It does matter, only because if EVE combat was based more on real life naval combat it would be a hell of a lot more interesting. Making direct analogies between platform and weapon capabilities is invalid as EVE isn't set up that way. But, anything they can do make multi platform battlegroups worthwhile gets my thumbs up. The devs should have played Harpoon before designing this system.
toaster	Posted - 2004.04.15 12:33:00 - [20] I love flying frigs in combat, but I don't think that cruise missiles belong on frigates. ------------------------------------------------
Grimster	Posted - 2004.04.15 12:39:00 - [21] Quote: I love flying frigs in combat, but I don't think that cruise missiles belong on frigates. Aiiieee! Heratic! For pity's sake don't let the Devs hear you say that!
Davich MacGregor	Posted - 2004.04.15 12:55:00 - [22] Edited by: Davich MacGregor on 15/04/2004 12:56:53 I don't think there's a problem with a frig mounting a cruise missle, torpedo or heavy missle. As some have pointed out, it's possible in rl. What is a problem is the ability for the frigs to carry so many in their hold. Should not be able to do that. Maybe one load out, two max. Maybe increase the size of these weapons. But then the bs people will cry because now they can't hold so many. So increase their holds. But then the indy people will cry because bs can hold so much. And on and on and waaa waaa waaa... Stellar Products and Quality Resources ticker: SPQR established 6-03
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2004.04.15 13:06:00 - [23] [Carassius] Quote: For example frigates in the navy do not carry as big guns as battlecruisers (check the nice guns on those hehe). You cannot compare EVE frigates with airplanes because it's not the same. Guns are practically irrelevent in modern naval combat, and frigates carry ship killer missiles that can sink battleships and aircraft carriers. JF Public Forum
Malar	Posted - 2004.04.15 13:08:00 - [24] Edited by: Malar on 15/04/2004 13:09:26 Quote: Edited by: Davich MacGregor on 15/04/2004 12:56:53 I don't think there's a problem with a frig mounting a cruise missle, torpedo or heavy missle. As some have pointed out, it's possible in rl. What is a problem is the ability for the frigs to carry so many in their hold. Should not be able to do that. Maybe one load out, two max. Maybe increase the size of these weapons. But then the bs people will cry because now they can't hold so many. So increase their holds. But then the indy people will cry because bs can hold so much. And on and on and waaa waaa waaa... Erm, actually, most frig pilots only keep a minimal ammount of reloads in teir ship. Why? Because one bad move, and its blown to pieces. Would be dumb to leave 100 cruise missiles there as a gift for your opponent. As for me, i usually keep two reloads in cargo, one set in launchers, so a grand total of 12 missiles on board. Cruise missiles are not the real problem for frigs, its MWD usage. It really has to go, at least after sig radius starts to impact tracking as well. Simply make it so, that its impossible to activate any kind of modules while using the mwd and even for a few seconds after it stops. That would stop frigates from mwd orbiting around targets. "Energy fluctuations caused by your microwarpdrive are preventing the use of <insert module name here>. You will be able to activate it again in 10 seconds." Something like this. --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only and are not the views held by Mercenary Forces Corp
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.04.15 13:14:00 - [25] Cardassius wrote: [quote You compare frigates with airplanes, that's kinda weird if you compare Battleships with battleships in the navy. For example frigates in the navy do not carry as big guns as battlecruisers (check the nice guns on those hehe). You cannot compare EVE frigates with airplanes because it's not the same. Missiles are not the same as guns. The primary advantage of missiles is that you simply don't need the massive infrastructure to mount a weapon capable of killing a ship of the line. Thus you can mount battleship killing missiles on Cruisers, Frigates, PT boats, submarines, aircraft, you name it. People keep saying that battleship killing missiles are "to big" or "to heavy" to be mounted ships as light as Frigates, but they really aren't. The only genuine arguments against cruise missiles that I've heard have been about game balance, in that allowing Frigates and Cruisers to carry cruise missiles gives that access to Battleship grade firepower, and that is only a real problem if people are supposed to upgrade directly to Battleship for PvP, and use nothing else once they get there. That seems to be the core of the issue: whether or not Frigates should be a genuine threat to Battleship class warships. Harry Voyager
DeMundus	Posted - 2004.04.15 13:18:00 - [26] Quote: I love flying frigs in combat, but I don't think that cruise missiles belong on frigates. I do - and its fine that u are limited by the launchers. So stop talking about it.
Davich MacGregor	Posted - 2004.04.15 13:28:00 - [27] Edited by: Davich MacGregor on 15/04/2004 13:29:41 Quote: That seems to be the core of the issue: whether or not Frigates should be a genuine threat to Battleship class warships. Harry Voyager Since the introduction of powered torpedoes into naval warfare small ships have been a major threat to the behemoths of the seas. That's why they came up with destroyers, as a means of countering the smaller harder to hit torpedo carrying vessels. When WW2 broke out in Asia the Japanese demonstrated to the British Navy the folly of sending unsupported battleships within range of aircraft. Again the behemoths were at the mercy of much smaller craft. There is nothing wrong with frig class vessels in EVE being able to take out battleship class vessels. The problem is with the battleship users acting like they should be all powerful and invincible to smaller vessels. History has shown again and again that large vessels will be at the mercy of smaller vessels and that the larger vessels will need to take counter measures. Either mount smaller anti-frig weapons or take along some frig and cruiser escorts. Nuff Said Stellar Products and Quality Resources ticker: SPQR established 6-03
Missa	Posted - 2004.04.15 13:36:00 - [28] TomB said a long time ago that frigs would keep cruse missles...I stand by that. Lots of people say that they don't want cruse missles on frigs...in reality everyone loves to see their frig do 300+ damage per shot and frigs need every little chance they can get in Eve combat. I mean is there a _single_ eve user at this point who _wants_ another nerf in the game??? I doubt it. Don't worry about rumors, frigs will keep their cruse missles until it is stealth patched. See if they were actually removing cruse missles from the m-12 type of launcher you wouldn't hear a thing about it. However if you hear that they are surely removing them in the next patch...they probably arn't. Just play the game for a year and you will know what I mean if you don't already. Take care and happy frig nuking. --Missa New Siggy to Come Soon(tm)
cypriss	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:12:00 - [29] Quote: En masse, frigates with CMs can be deadly, but that also requires that the pilots work together and thier loadouts compliment each other. i agree, and a group of cruisers or a group of battleships can make work of a group of frigates. so it sounds ok to me. i don't know why peeps in battleships think they should be invulnerable to frigates. travel in pairs at the least and you will be much safer.
Bran Hale	Posted - 2004.04.15 14:25:00 - [30] Quote: History has shown again and again that large vessels will be at the mercy of smaller vessels and that the larger vessels will need to take counter measures. He's right you know. Luke sure wiped the smile off Moff Tarkin's face when he ganked the Death Star.

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