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Antarus Lars Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:05:00 - [1] How the h3ll does the friendly insurance company stay in business.. I mean i can swallow down the fact that we have 4 off split human sub races from another galaxy fighting wars with many pew pew pewing lasers, mining randomly placed large belts of valuable ore (which magically re-appears every 24 hours, along with tonnes of pirates who do nothing but roam asteroids and gates in certain areas, but never go on vaccaion, go for a meal with a friend, dont ever test setups.. or whine about nano pod players..... But the idea of a insurance company that takes a 45mil payment then pays off 110mil every time you blow up a ship and doesnt even blink an eyelid when you self destruct your ship of 40,0000 ppl into oblivion for sh1ts n giggles baffels me beyond human ability.... Im currently trying to get my car insured by eve-bank. But with no luck
Quelque Chose University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:08:00 - [2] In the future they use quantum accounting, it's awesome. And when it fails to be awesome they reverse the polarity. ______________________________ "Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space."
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:11:00 - [3] Originally by: Quelque Chose In the future they use quantum accounting, it's awesome. And when it fails to be awesome they reverse the polarity. ROFL! Quantum accounting... Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:11:00 - [4] Originally by: Quelque Chose In the future they use quantum accounting, it's awesome. And when it fails to be awesome they reverse the polarity. Damn, I don't know if I can do better than this response. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:11:00 - [5] Originally by: Antarus Lars But the idea of a insurance company that takes a 45mil payment then pays off 110mil every time you blow up a ship and doesnt even blink an eyelid when you self destruct your ship of 40,0000 ppl into oblivion for sh1ts n giggles baffels me beyond human ability.... Is this more or less insane then the idea of piloting a ship in a pod filled with goo 20,000 years in the future? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Quelque Chose University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:13:00 - [6] It's all way too technical for us to comprehend... so much so that I frequently find myself mistaking it for magic. ______________________________ "Eve Online is a massively multiplayer game about trolling in outer space."
Attrezzo Pox Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Quelque Chose In the future they use quantum accounting, it's awesome. And when it fails to be awesome they reverse the polarity. Lock this thread because the winner has just won. Game over guys... you heard it "Quantum accounting" is what the guy said. Put it in a chronicle CCP ------------------------- This is not a good sig.
Mioelnir KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Antarus Lars How the h3ll does the friendly insurance company stay in business.. Insurance = SCC Market License = SCC (see patchnotes whenever an item gets removed) ===>> all the broker fees and sales taxes of everything sold in Eve go to the SCC. That's how they stay in business. Quantum accounting probably helps.
Izzy Lizzy Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Antarus Lars But the idea of a insurance company that takes a 45mil payment then pays off 110mil every time you blow up a ship and doesnt even blink an eyelid when you self destruct your ship of 40,0000 ppl into oblivion for sh1ts n giggles baffels me beyond human ability.... So you can handle the fact that asteroid belts magically reappear but you can't get your mind around the peculiarities of eve's insurance system?? hmm... Quote: The average man will bristle if you say his father was dishonest, but he will brag a little if he discovers that his great-grandfather was a pirate.
Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:22:00 - [10] It's profitable because of advertising. The pod pilot is obviously exempt from advertising, but every single crew member is blasted by ads on all of the screens and interfaces they use to keep the ship up to snuff, and some of them do click these ads during "work" hours, and perhaps even buy products with their ISK allowance, so the advertising is profitable. And when the ship blows up and they all die, goods they purchased don't need to be delivered anymore, for even more profit. Thus the "insurance" is paid to the pod pilot so he can quickly replace his ship, and get more crew members to interact with the various interfaces with ads in them. It's simple. Advertising space.
Khalen Orerunner Coronus Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:24:00 - [11] No it makes no actuarial sense. It would be worse then insuring a sixteen year old with a ferrari. Insurance should be based on your insurability. Every time you have an accident your rates go up. At least if you file a claim. Things they should not pay off for self-destuct dying in a war with an offical war-dec Getting killed by concorde for doing a crime should not make you lose your payout, but you should make your insurace rates skyrocket. There could be a secondary market,not pend, to buy insurance that has higher rates and less restirctions. maybe allow you to insure your clone as well, implants etc anything your willing to pay a premium on. There could also be a replacement cost policy that has higher rates based on maket prices for last 30 days at time of purchase.
Andargor theWise The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:35:00 - [12] I don't have the in-game stats, but don't forget that if you don't blow up your ship, you renew your insurance after 3 months. I,d like to know how many pilots blow up their ships vs those that renew. "Unused capacity" in things like calling cards where the price per minute looks cheaper at first glance, but in reality the bit that you don't use makes it more expensive overall. Same with insurance you don't cash in. With rigs, makes insurance even more profitable, since you will hesitate to blow up your ship. I know, Pend are the inventors of rigs. /tinfoil - Stop the Feature Glut: Take the API to the Next Level
Siresa Talesi Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Antarus Lars How the h3ll does the friendly insurance company stay in business.. I heard they hired Enron's bookkeepers... "Space is filled with countless hours of boredom...punctuated by moments of abject terror." - Capn. James T. Kirk, Starfleet Academy
Tzar'rim Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:09:00 - [14] Bistromath, if you don't know... don't ask. I'm looking for a home
Biirk State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:11:00 - [15] Ships cost enough, so its rarely, in my experiance, profitable to blow them up. But if you want to get rid of the old reck <shrug> What threatens the suspension of my disbelief (or just 'bug's ma actually. And I think is a bad game mechanic) Is that someone in the process of a criminal act getting killed by Concord, is payed insurance. I think that would help nerf suicide ganking just a bit. And make sense as well. I guess I also will respond here to another thread that can be said to be vaguely related. 'Said they wanted to declare war on NPC corps. or get innocent players out of them, to where they could more easily ***them at will. Well if one did declare war on an NPC corp. That corps Friends would become Thier Ememy! What happens when you declare war on State War Acadamy? Well, then probly you get attacked by NPC of that State whenever they see you. Right? So to gank thier SWA 'As,,perations' in high sec. Well maby so if you can catch them out of Caldari space. 'Get Them!' on thier way to um, Ren. (or whatever that Minmatar Shopping mall is called) But you give the ability to haul your 'Pirate As,perations' in Caldari space. (pardon the '*' language. I see nothing wrong with 'words' but have the habit of apeasing those on the 'WWW' who might be offended I will leave it to others to 'break into the shell of thier understanding') _______ All Our Base Are Belong To Them
Pan Crastus Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:13:00 - [16] In a true player-driven universe the insurance companies would be player-owned and act accordingly... Or at least the NPC insurance companies would take into account the average lifespan of a ship (any ... or just the type that is being insured) and price the insurance accordingly. If e.g. 80% of all ships are destroyed in the current insurance period, then it should cost 80% of the ship's price plus some profit margin. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:16:00 - [17] Originally by: Tzar'rim Bistromath, if you don't know... don't ask. hehehe. this is probably the second best reply but as most of the playerbase don't read I give Quantum accounting a /thread --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Fiorenza Hoppity's Burrow	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:41:00 - [18] My bank practices quantum accounting. According to them, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle means that they can either tell me where my money is or how much I have, but never both at the same time. I have been trying to withdraw some cash since 2003. -- Remember, Concorde doesn't provide safety, or even consequences
Gimpb Sturmgrenadier Inc Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:45:00 - [19] I'm no trader so I don't really know, but if you believe the traders who say they can easily make 10% of their working capital in a day, it sounds like the insurance company is making a killing.
Cutie Chaser Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:56:00 - [20] There is an easy explanation, they've got ex-ENRON employees running the friendly insurance company. *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:20:00 - [21] EvE insurance is nothing at all like RL insurance, and trying to change it on the basis that RL insurance companies wouldn't pay out for this or that is frankly stupid ; RL insurance companies wouldn't even insure 90% of the ships in EvE, and even if they did, they wouldn't pay out on 90% of the ships lost. It's a game mechanic designed to reduce the death penalty, and CCP called it "insurance" as a (poor) metaphor that is easily understood. That's all you need to know. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:38:00 - [22] Edited by: Letouk Mernel on 27/03/2008 19:43:21 Insurance was added to the game to reduce the cost of death. Back in the day, ISK wasn't as plentiful as it is now, and losing a battleship or cruiser hurt, so people complained that they couldn't PVP as much as they wanted to, and CCP introduced insurance. Then it got ignored, and it remained unchanged even though the economy took off and mineral prices started to fluctuate. They also ignored it when T2 was added, because they wanted T2 to be an expensive money sink. Now it looks like everyone is rich, so people are asking for it to be removed. I think they should introduce some system where the insurance costs depend on how the economy is doing, mineral prices, the size of the playerbase, etc. Maybe have cheap insurance for newbies and expensive for veterans. Or maybe make it more realistic, so that it keeps track of how many ships you lost, whether it was your fault (Concordoken), etc. I don't know, CCP can figure it out, shrug. EDIT: I'd go for convenience, have "Insurance" do the following. Say an insurance contract costs 5% of the value of the ship, and if you have one, then when you die the cost of the ship is deducted from your wallet, and the system automatically purchases a new ship for you from the nearest available trade hub, paying for it and for the modules you had with YOUR money (deducted from the wallet), and insta-delivers it to wherever your clone is, so that when you wake up from being podded, you're ready to go. Sort of like an automated "buy me a new ship and the gear I had, and deliver it to me" service that costs 5% service tax.
MrTripps Blueprint Haus Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:27:00 - [23] Sure they lose money on every transaction, but they make up for it in volume. "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S. Thompson.
Lisento Slaven The Drekla Consortium VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:32:00 - [24] I have owned a NUMBER of ships which never died. Thus I did not get any payout. It is acceptable to believe there are many pilots out there who insure ships that never end up going pop. --- Put in space whales!
Vested Interest Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:34:00 - [25] I dunno about you guys but about 5/6 of my insurance policies expire unneeded.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Edited by: Letouk Mernel on 27/03/2008 19:43:21 Insurance was added to the game to reduce the cost of death. Back in the day, ISK wasn't as plentiful as it is now, and losing a battleship or cruiser hurt, so people complained that they couldn't PVP as much as they wanted to, and CCP introduced insurance. Then it got ignored, and it remained unchanged even though the economy took off and mineral prices started to fluctuate. They also ignored it when T2 was added, because they wanted T2 to be an expensive money sink. Now it looks like everyone is rich, so people are asking for it to be removed. I think they should introduce some system where the insurance costs depend on how the economy is doing, mineral prices, the size of the playerbase, etc. Maybe have cheap insurance for newbies and expensive for veterans. Or maybe make it more realistic, so that it keeps track of how many ships you lost, whether it was your fault (Concordoken), etc. I don't know, CCP can figure it out, shrug. EDIT: I'd go for convenience, have "Insurance" do the following. Say an insurance contract costs 5% of the value of the ship, and if you have one, then when you die the cost of the ship is deducted from your wallet, and the system automatically purchases a new ship for you from the nearest available trade hub, paying for it and for the modules you had with YOUR money (deducted from the wallet), and insta-delivers it to wherever your clone is, so that when you wake up from being podded, you're ready to go. Sort of like an automated "buy me a new ship and the gear I had, and deliver it to me" service that costs 5% service tax. That might be cute in hi-sec, but it would utterly change warfare in 0.0. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Vested Interest I dunno about you guys but about 5/6 of my insurance policies expire unneeded. Logically you are spending way too much on insurance. Once you have more than 4-5 PvP ships it really only makes sense to insure them in very high risk situations (eg: you know you're going into a fleet battle). CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Gamesguy D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.27 22:02:00 - [28] The eve insurance is more like a salvage contract more than anything else. Course that doesn't explain how they manage to get more minerals out of your wreck than it cost to built it, but still...
Seti Luban Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.03.27 22:04:00 - [29] the insurance is beyond my compresion it like physic and my brain doesnt go that deep
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.27 23:59:00 - [30] I'm pretty sure the insurance 'company' in Eve isn't a business at all. At least, not in the free market sense. I believe insurance is subsidized by CONCORD and/or the empires, to encourage people to leave their planets and travel through outer space as pod-pilots. A long term investment that costs a ton of isk, and makes planet-side taxpayers cry. --- Join BH-DL Skills
Kia Rash The Phalanx Expeditionary Conglomerate Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.03.28 03:25:00 - [31] from an rp point of view it would make sense to me for it to be working like this: you should not forget that the 300 thousand orso pod pilots are just 0.000001% of the eve universe population(probably even less). so they are making huge profits anyway. the insurance companies could be sponsored or even subsidised by the empires or pirate factions to insure theire pod pilots in eve. as theyre effectiveness would increase if they didn't have "down time" when losing a ship. from an game mechanic point of view, its a way to make eve somewhat more accesible to the younger pod pilots, as losing a ship can be quite a setback if it was the last cruiser or bc you could afford and that setting you back to running lvl 1's to recoup the loss, till you can afford another cruiser or bc.
Argus Greymoore Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.28 03:41:00 - [32] Originally by: Antarus Lars ...mining randomly placed large belts of valuable ore (which magically re-appears every 24 hours... Actually, only on Mondays and Fridays, not every 24 hours.
Ava Santiago AAC	Posted - 2008.03.28 03:57:00 - [33] Originally by: Kia Rash from an game mechanic point of view, its a way to make eve somewhat more accesible to the younger pod pilots, as losing a ship can be quite a setback if it was the last cruiser or bc you could afford and that setting you back to running lvl 1's to recoup the loss, till you can afford another cruiser or bc. The guy who blows up a billion in an industrialists' cargo just cost that player an average month of work. Basically, unless CCP transfers some of that risk back on the piratical player the system may break. If/when it does expect the game to die or change dramatically. Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts.
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.28 04:02:00 - [34] Originally by: Ava Santiago Originally by: Kia Rash from an game mechanic point of view, its a way to make eve somewhat more accesible to the younger pod pilots, as losing a ship can be quite a setback if it was the last cruiser or bc you could afford and that setting you back to running lvl 1's to recoup the loss, till you can afford another cruiser or bc. The guy who blows up a billion in an industrialists' cargo just cost that player an average month of work. Basically, unless CCP transfers some of that risk back on the piratical player the system may break. If/when it does expect the game to die or change dramatically. according to the mission forums the hourly rate made from missions (lvl4's in highsec) is 20mill an hour (30mill at the highest) 23hrs a day * 20mill = 460 mill a day at the high end of the extreme at 5 hours a day it would take 10 days
Inconstant Moon Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:47:00 - [35] Edited by: Inconstant Moon on 28/03/2008 13:50:10 I believe much of the problem stems from the insurance scheme being misnamed. It's not really insurance, as it's rather more analogous to the criminal injuries compensation schemes that operate in most civilised countries - for example, in the UK you get ú25K if someone plucks out your eye. These schemes do not compensate for injuries sustained during the perpetration of a crime, generally the criminals receive a fine instead. These compensation schemes operate to reduce the impact of crime and help maintain the fabric of society, and are funded by the governments. In Eve you could consider this to be funded* either by Concord or the Factions. If Concord funds it, then it shouldn't compensate criminals for criminal acts in Concord jurisdiction. If the Factions fund it, then they might be quite happy to compensate their own citizens for all losses incurred in foreign territory. (*Pend got nationalised due to a lack of funds resulting from a poor business model. They would pay out even when no contract was purchased, for example.) -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:54:00 - [36] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Ava Santiago Originally by: Kia Rash from an game mechanic point of view, its a way to make eve somewhat more accesible to the younger pod pilots, as losing a ship can be quite a setback if it was the last cruiser or bc you could afford and that setting you back to running lvl 1's to recoup the loss, till you can afford another cruiser or bc. The guy who blows up a billion in an industrialists' cargo just cost that player an average month of work. Basically, unless CCP transfers some of that risk back on the piratical player the system may break. If/when it does expect the game to die or change dramatically. according to the mission forums the hourly rate made from missions (lvl4's in highsec) is 20mill an hour (30mill at the highest) 23hrs a day * 20mill = 460 mill a day at the high end of the extreme at 5 hours a day it would take 10 days I once made ~300M, not counting the ~125k LP and not counting all of the salvage either in one marathon 16-hour mission session in a single day. Call it about 450M value. (Well I wanted that CNR, you understand...) Mind you it was nearly 2 months before I could face doing another. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Brun Thorvald Red. Red Republic	Posted - 2008.03.29 07:33:00 - [37] Insurance exists because if it did not, the gankbears who say 'Never fly a ship you can't afford to lose' would go broke when they themselves get ganked. And then they would whine. Just like they do now when their prey reacts by cloaking, freeing or loggoffski. If insurance was removed the effect would be ... players without cash flow would routinely fly smaller ships. Look, players have figured out the economy. Player banks are offering 7% per month interest. My main, a month old can in three hours missioning and salvaging afford four frigates, two destroyers or a (poorly equipped) cruiser ... which is faster than I can lose frigates hooning around 0.0 because it's fun. My small corp (less than fifty active players) has between five and ten capships, and is increasing this number monthly (remember, BS are the new Cruisers, and Dreads are the new BS. Titans, of course, are the new Dreads). Face it, insurance might have been neccessary in the old days, but now ... EvE should be a cold and harsh universe. Dont fly what you cant afford to lose. But if we enforced this, pirates and PvPers would cry.
Frozen Fallout Mecha Enterprises Group PURGE.	Posted - 2008.03.29 10:25:00 - [38] Originally by: Quelque Chose In the future they use quantum accounting, it's awesome. And when it fails to be awesome they reverse the polarity. Perfect! ++++++++++++++++++++++
Ashlee Darksky	Posted - 2008.03.29 12:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Antarus Lars How the h3ll does the friendly insurance company stay in business.. I mean i can swallow down the fact that we have 4 off split human sub races from another galaxy fighting wars with many pew pew pewing lasers, mining randomly placed large belts of valuable ore (which magically re-appears every 24 hours, along with tonnes of pirates who do nothing but roam asteroids and gates in certain areas, but never go on vaccaion, go for a meal with a friend, dont ever test setups.. or whine about nano pod players..... But the idea of a insurance company that takes a 45mil payment then pays off 110mil every time you blow up a ship and doesnt even blink an eyelid when you self destruct your ship of 40,0000 ppl into oblivion for sh1ts n giggles baffels me beyond human ability.... Im currently trying to get my car insured by eve-bank. But with no luck Since when did the insurance payout ever exceed the value of the ship that much? Take a drake for example... Cost about 32-32mil.. insurance will pay about 28-30mil if i remember correctly. So it only just covers the cost of the ship, let alone riggings and fittings. If, as you say it cost 45mil to insure and I got paid 110mil I would be constantly blowing my own ship up, sipping wine and going on a lot of holidays. If you want a more "realistic" insurance quote, try insuring a T2 ship. Your friendly insurance company will pay you about 2 bucks for it
Barbelo Valentinian	Posted - 2008.03.29 13:15:00 - [40] Meh, all sorts of things are pretty hokey from a rp or realism point of view. I mean, I accept of course that in-game things have to be "shrunk" or truncated or miniaturised from their (hypothetical) real-world equivalents, to make the game playable as a game at all (e.g. "repackaging" a ship takes a second - in reality it might take at least a few hours, even with sophisticated technology). And stuff like asteroid respawning and rats just has to be in there because, again, it's a game, and you can suspend disbelief by forgetting, for the moment, about the notion of spawning altogether. But insurance is a real immersion breaker - and I mean not just for suicide ganking (of course that's ludicrous) but absolutely, in terms of the very concept of paying insurance out to pilots who lose their ships at such a ridiculously high rate. And the other big buzz-breaker for me is thinking about all the crew on my ship. I mean, the concept of having a ship full of crew in these massive ships is great, but the illusion just doesn't stand up to the way ships are handled in this game, which is cheaply and lightly, disposably, in pursuit of pew-pew fun. At no time is it ever really possible to imagine that you're the captain of a crew. Nobody would sign up for these bloody ships, when the chances of being killed are so high. If they were crewed at all they would have to be crewed by slaves, so only Amarr would have crews, and they'd be useless. "Quantum accounting" ***** "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.03.29 13:41:00 - [41] They should change explosion graphics to show a great many number of escape pods (untargettable, and different from the capsuleer pod) flying away after a ship blows up. Lag central, of course, but for teh realism!!

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