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Wet Ferret
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.28 18:11:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Karad Forsky
Edited by: Karad Forsky on 28/03/2008 17:39:05
Ranting is pointless. We can outline a similar list of points on how gatecamping lowsec is actually a people problem. That does not make it true.
Nanoing HACs, as it stands, is the most efficient way of taking advantage of the uniqueness of the HAC platform. If you do not want a fast HAC, you can fly a Battlecruiser.
As for people harassing your lowsec gatecamps with nanoships, they do it because it's fun. Rather then look around for a non-existant fight, they break the monotony by toying with a camp that is unable to catch them. Nothing wrong with that.
People use to "harrass" with interceptors before all the speed rigs were introduced. But I guess if they had to go back to them it wouldn't be fun anymore?
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Diomidis
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.28 18:21:00 -
[32]
Come on ppl:
Nano ships are not the problem...Interdictors where too fast = 1 could pwn several ceptors and out-run anything but a Vaga or sth, now that's fixed.
Speed mods where fixed, so no-more nano-BSs etc.
Nano is the incarnation of Guerrilla fighting...asking for nerfing it hard for it to be "fair" is like forcing outnumbered troopers confront battle tanks or sth 1vs1. with a rifle. They won't! Cause its suicide. The Tank commander would love it tho...
As soon as that happens, blobbers will be unbeatable, and then you will be asking to nerf blobs somehow etc...get over it...
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems
The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.03.28 19:33:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Diomidis
Come on ppl:
Nano ships are not the problem...Interdictors where too fast = 1 could pwn several ceptors and out-run anything but a Vaga or sth, now that's fixed.
Speed mods where fixed, so no-more nano-BSs etc.
Nano is the incarnation of Guerrilla fighting...asking for nerfing it hard for it to be "fair" is like forcing outnumbered troopers confront battle tanks or sth 1vs1. with a rifle. They won't! Cause its suicide. The Tank commander would love it tho...
As soon as that happens, blobbers will be unbeatable, and then you will be asking to nerf blobs somehow etc...get over it...
Let's be straight man though.
Blobbing is something that everyone is yelling that needs fixing for ages. The changes in the fleet system and not only were aimed towards that (limiting the people one can have in his gang).
Other solutions are being discussed by Devs also i guess, trying to force a more spread out and tactical environment that would make the use of blobs not a good strategy.
Nanos on the other hand have gone a little bit out of control. When you see ships that were not meant to use this type of defense (exclusively at least) to come out fitted only for speed, something is clearly wrong.
Either in the mentality of people or in the mechanics that rule this game.
This particular problem has to do mainly with one thing. Survivability.
No matter what everyone is saying speed setups has this thing in their favor, the odds look bad in an engagement? They can leave without any loss of the ship.
Which in a place where losses are losses (and not just a death with no gear loss), this counts the most. Everyone says i want to pvp, but in reality everyone wants to win in an engagement, or at least not lose.
You are partly right that speed setups have and should have their part within EVE. The problem is that they are being overused for the reasons i said above.
So the solutions is either to change the peoples mentality (i really doubt that can happen), or change the mechanics, or change the game entirely and wipe out the real losses (as real as they can be in a virtual world).
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Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
Karl Luckner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.28 19:58:00 -
[34]
Nerfing things was never a good idea. I think it would be easier to introduce a more common counter to larger nanoships.
Give precision missiles more speed and better explosion velocity, and thw whole problem is solved. Ceptors and HAC's have their small signature radius, and would be less effected by those changes.
Would at least give missile boats a role in PvP.
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems
The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.03.28 20:18:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Karl Luckner
Nerfing things was never a good idea. I think it would be easier to introduce a more common counter to larger nanoships.
Give precision missiles more speed and better explosion velocity, and thw whole problem is solved. Ceptors and HAC's have their small signature radius, and would be less effected by those changes.
Would at least give missile boats a role in PvP.
Your solution is flawed. Because it creates problems in other areas, and doesn't solve the problem.
Not to mention that not everyone flies Caldari ships in EVE.
Nerfing as well as buffing are not good things if they are used without big consideration.
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Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
Semkhet
Spartan Industries
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.28 20:21:00 -
[36]
Originally by: L70Rogue
can't wait to see how triumvirate can deal with an inevitable nano-nerf, probably will probably start getting pwnd by far superior non-lame alliances.
I guess you'll burst a vein if it doesn't happen. Oh wait... What do I see on TRI KB ? That we have almost the same amount of kills using Megathrons than Ishtars ? LMAO 
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Karl Luckner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.28 20:48:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Your solution is flawed. Because it creates problems in other areas, and doesn't solve the problem.
Not to mention that not everyone flies Caldari ships in EVE.
Nerfing as well as buffing are not good things if they are used without big consideration.
Khanid and Minmatar ships use missiles as well. Could you eleborate more on the problems it would cause ?
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Chomapuraku
Templar Republic
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.03.28 21:27:00 -
[38]
people don't like nano-ships because when you do bring a proper counter to them, there's no way to keep them from running away. no other ship class allows the pilot to disengage from a fight he picks. thus, lack of balance.
TRI roams into RK space in nano-gangs all the time, but everyone always ends up just waiting for them to pass (while they gank idiots that don't watch intel) because they we can't make them commit to a fight (and we can't assemble 20 huginns and rapiers at a moments' notice) and, tbqfh, it's not fun to fight against a roaming nano-gang. there's only one gang setup that lets you kill them (lots of huginns and rapiers) and it only works if they don't run away (which any smart nano-gang will do if they see five huginns and dps support)
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.28 21:56:00 -
[39]
Originally by: L70Rogue
can't wait to see how triumvirate can deal with an inevitable nano-nerf, probably will probably start getting pwnd by far superior non-lame alliances.
As im bored ill take troll-bait
We'll prolly *****your face in 100 other ways.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.28 21:57:00 -
[40]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 28/03/2008 21:58:58
It isn't anywhere near as complicated as you're making it out to be. The people who play this game don't want to lose their ships, face or isk so they go for the lowest risk form of pvp they can.
Fitting speed mods to your ship increases your ships life expectancy by many times especially if you're good at it. 'Nano'ing' is low-risk pvp for high reward and its that ratio that is upset and this is why it annoys the victims. I nano the hell out of pretty much all my ships but I don't particuarly enjoy it. Theres less satisfaction for me when I win because the opponent is unable to counter me due to a game mechanic.
PvP was better 2 years ago when we all flew tanking BS with 3 damage mods at close range but Eve isn't that game anymore and you've gotta roll with the times or you lose.
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you all smell! |
Perfect Diamond
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.28 22:23:00 -
[41]
Here's a random idea.
How about making another penalty for mwds
The use of a mwd does not allow the user to warp for 30 secs after use. Could possibly restrict this to sub battle ship class ships. Just a thought.
Amarr is the tank OR gank race.
Not the tank and gank race. |
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.28 22:28:00 -
[42]
Also, Deva you suck donkey balls wanna fight about it!? :P
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you all smell! |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.28 22:38:00 -
[43]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Also, Deva you suck donkey balls wanna fight about it!? :P
Visit me in VFK :p
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Firane
Teneritas
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Posted - 2008.03.28 23:47:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Firane on 28/03/2008 23:49:19
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 28/03/2008 21:58:58
It isn't anywhere near as complicated as you're making it out to be. The people who play this game don't want to lose their ships, face or isk so they go for the lowest risk form of pvp they can.
Fitting speed mods to your ship increases your ships life expectancy by many times especially if you're good at it. 'Nano'ing' is low-risk pvp for high reward and its that ratio that is upset and this is why it annoys the victims. I nano the hell out of pretty much all my ships but I don't particuarly enjoy it. Theres less satisfaction for me when I win because the opponent is unable to counter me due to a game mechanic.
PvP was better 2 years ago when we all flew tanking BS with 3 damage mods at close range but Eve isn't that game anymore and you've gotta roll with the times or you lose.
Listen to welsh really. I'd even go so far as to say its low-risk for low-reward, at least in ISK made value.
It's less about not having skill and more about extending the life of your assets, protecting your assets, if you will. Its too easy to get ganked if you're slow and in a smaller gang even if you're a good pilot, because no matter how 'good' you are you can't make your ship align faster, can't stop your warps midwarp, can't lock to shoot a tackler when you're being permajammed, etc. With a nanogang/ship you can survive as a small entity in PvP and its pretty much the last way to do so.
Another big contributing factor-and this goes hand in hand with protecting your assets-is that invention pretty much ruined PvP for profit. Now PvPers nano because the less ships they lose, the less time they have to spend doing something they hate; PvE, invention, whatever else to make ISK so they can continue their hobby.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.29 00:31:00 -
[45]
You are missing one point with nanos. its not only "combat fit". Its also "travel fit". Try making 100-150 jumps in one roaming gang, you will know why lots of TRI guys favour nano ships which can cover 5 regions quickly.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.29 00:33:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
You are missing one point with nanos. its not only "combat fit". Its also "travel fit". Try making 100-150 jumps in one roaming gang, you will know why lots of TRI guys favour nano ships which can cover 5 regions quickly.
Maybe that needs fixing. Powerful fleet = slower fleet, atleast should be. Weaker inty gang = fast. Nanos should be somewhere in middle and not as fast as inties.
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Crellion
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.03.29 01:30:00 -
[47]
To the extent that it allows the little guy to fight the big guy and the outnumbered to triumph over the blobbers I say boost nano 10x.
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.29 01:32:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Crellion
To the extent that it allows the little guy to fight the big guy and the outnumbered to triumph over the blobbers I say boost nano 10x.
But nanos are blobbing their targets...I think a majority of nano gang kills are pretty much ganks.
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.29 02:13:00 -
[49]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 29/03/2008 02:12:52
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Crellion
To the extent that it allows the little guy to fight the big guy and the outnumbered to triumph over the blobbers I say boost nano 10x.
But nanos are blobbing their targets...I think a majority of nano gang kills are pretty much ganks.
Aye, this is the impression I get. Tbh the little guy tends to be the one struggling in his BS these days.
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you all smell! |
gr7hug
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.29 04:37:00 -
[50]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 28/03/2008 21:58:58
PvP was better 2 years ago when we all flew tanking BS with 3 damage mods at close range but Eve isn't that game anymore and you've gotta roll with the times or you lose.
Could be my "not liking to loose stuff" side talking, or the fact that I have never nanoed or been nanoed, but I totally disagree with this.
I just came back to eve after 1.5 years off. Before I rolled with the FA and BIG. Back in those days PVP was BOARING BLOB WARFARE. It SUCKED.
I remember sitting at gates for hours watching a blob of m00 to see if they were going to jump over or not.
To me, fast paced action (MOVING AROUND! how novel of an idea) seems like a much desirable alternative to this.
I have seen video of nano fighting, looks like fun. I wish all ships in eve moved faster (and tracking / whatnot was adjusted to compensate) as going fast = more interesting.
My perspective may be one that lacks experience, but it seems to me that hit and run tactics are nothing new in real combat, so they should not be foreign to eve.
if speed tanking "is not how ships are supposed to avoid damage" then why does tracking exist at all?
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Pur3Bl00D
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.03.29 17:06:00 -
[51]
I am fairly new to this game, even months of playing eve do not turn you into a veteran imo, but i just want to point that that whatever the DEV's do about nano-ships, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE:
DO NOT DESTROY THE WHOLE ASPECT OF SPEED TANKING
It's one of most interesting and complicating mechanic of this game, and nano's are far off than what a true speed tanking aspect should be imo.
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ChalSto
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Posted - 2008.03.29 20:46:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Tatsue Niko
Edited by: Tatsue Niko on 28/03/2008 01:50:43
Originally by: NoNah
Why would 40 people show up to fight 10 people?
Come to Syndicate and find out, and I'll give you a hint, its not because the webifiers/neuts required have too high skill requirements.
Its a common 0.0 thing, if you've got 40 players bored, online and wanting to PVP.
What, theres a gang 5 jumps of?
Oshi- there's only 10 of them, OKAY GUYS LETS BRING 10 to match!
That's the general theme, then there's some alliances *cough* Huzzah *cough* who just don't feel like losing any ships.
wow.....do you realize that this isnt CAOD? And why smack anyways?
Ok....so lets "smack" back then:
If we are bored, doesnt that mean, that DNA arent good entertainers?
j/k
Evil will allways triumph, becouse Good is dumb
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Enduros
The Fallen Gingerbread Men
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.03.31 02:22:00 -
[53]
Train alt into rapier, problem solved... a week left for me
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If you find the post above offensive feel free to feel offended. |
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