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large artillery, why train it?

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Goumindong	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:12:00 - [151] Edited by: Goumindong on 31/03/2008 22:13:40 Edited by: Goumindong on 31/03/2008 22:13:31 No, it just seems like the tempest has fewer hit points than the example Apoc. ed: try this tempest 317 DPS, 3287 volley, 66,934 EHP [Tempest, New Setup 1 copy 3] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url]
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:15:00 - [152] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 31/03/2008 22:13:40 Edited by: Goumindong on 31/03/2008 22:13:31 No, it just seems like the tempest has fewer hit points than the example Apoc. ed: try this tempest 317 DPS, 3287 volley, 66,934 EHP [Tempest, New Setup 1 copy 3] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] What's the optimal on that? I'm regretting my lack of EFT up here, this is much more amusing than the project I'm working on. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:16:00 - [153] Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 31/03/2008 22:18:56 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 31/03/2008 21:55:26 Edited by: Goumindong on 31/03/2008 21:51:14 O.K. that is reasonable if you are using the maelstrom[the apoc will still be more, but you are likely to get your pod out. 357 dps, 61.5k ehp, 2613 volley. vs 380 dps, 3700 volley, 60.5k EHP. Should be fairly clear the Maelstroms will clean up providing they are in range. edit 2: Which looks half decently balanced until you consider the Apoc can run the high EHP, or high range, et all. It doesn't seem like any of these victories are being decided by the alpha of artillery. The fitting concessions made by the Apoc pilot with less than perfect skills seem to be the contention point here, not alpha. Sure, the Mael pilot can be effective with less SP (gasp!... seems so un-matari), but its not like Minmatar pilot has any window to increase combat effectiveness by putting skill points elsewhere. What really is at question is can the arty alpha make a difference (not always, not in all configs, etc) If you take 20 vs 20 MAX DPS setup (edit: where both have roughly the same EHP, as per Liang's initial run) for apoc vs mael, the apoc has a ~6% DPS advantage. Which is about the ship advantage the Maels will have after they sink 1 apoc. At 20 vs 19, DPS is almost equal, but then an Apoc goes down, and they have the advantage again. This continues until the Maelstroms can no longer actual nullify the Apoc advantage for a short period of time. On average, the Apoc's have the edge, with short periods of little to no edge in favor of the Maels. End result: The Maelstroms superior Alpha can not overcome a 6% DPS advantage. This was pretty evident to me from the graph posted a few pages back. Artillery ships have a VERY small window to compensate for a DPS disadvantage. Essentially you have 2-3 shots to make a difference. If you can't do enough in that time, the benefits of alpha are just not enough to make a difference. This is not to say that high alpha isnt a good thing; It is useful even as it stands. I think most people would care to see this window opened up however, to allow a 3-4 shot window. If this can be done without WTF BBQ'ing smaller craft (i.e. it doesn't reverse the reason HP's were buffed) then it would give arty a better role.
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:19:00 - [154] Originally by: Liang Nuren What's the optimal on that? I'm regretting my lack of EFT up here, this is much more amusing than the project I'm working on. -Liang \ 154+44 or something, same as the mael and tempest. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url]
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:33:00 - [155] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis It doesn't seem like any of these victories are being decided by the alpha of artillery. As the author of the simulation, I was actually astounded at how much hitpoints was the deciding factor rather than alpha or small amounts of DPS. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Darth Vaders Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:00:00 - [156] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Usaria Hi Xia Xiou, Welcome to EVE! Choose Difficulty Level -Easy -Moderate -Hard -Minmatar (Minmatar is for skilled pilots, you want point click go caldari.) -Ria wrong order -Minmatar -Easy -Moderate -Hard -Caldari I am a MINER . I fly the HULK. I am a CAREBEAR. Most of my skillpoints are non combat ones. I run lvl 4s in a Drake being semi afk. With your standards i must be an Eve-God!! ...or maybe you are just plain wrong...
Naomi Knight Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:04:00 - [157] Goumindong vs Liang round 2 :P Topic name should be changed to OMG. Well your stupid calculations doesn't prove anything, real battle summaries says there is nothing wrong with arty/tempest go check it yourself.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:07:00 - [158] Originally by: Naomi Knight Goumindong vs Liang round 2 :P Topic name should be changed to OMG. Well your stupid calculations doesn't prove anything, real battle summaries says there is nothing wrong with arty/tempest go check it yourself. I'm lazy, and you have them handy: links plx. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:13:00 - [159] See: TCF. Also, HP, while important, is kinda a non-optimal option. This is because there is the all important "getting out" factor, and the homogeneity problem. In that, EHP builds are only great if you get primaried. If they primary your low EHP ships first then your DPS goes down faster, so you would want all your builds to have the same optimal EHP/DPS ratio. This is very hard to do, and when you don't if they hit your high DPS ships first, you would be better off in a high DPS ship instead of a high EHP ship. E.G. you have two ships x = optimal DPS/EHP y = high dps/low EHP If you bring two ships, x and x, Enemy primaries x, and you deal 2 med dps, for 1 med EHP/enemy dps time, and 1 med dps for 1 med EHP/ enemy dps time But if you bring two ships, x and y. If the enemey primaries x you have 1 med+1 heavy dps for 1 med EHP/Enemy dps time, and 1 heavy DPS for 1 light ehp/enemy dps time. If the enemy primaries y, then you have 1 med+ 1 heavy dps for 1 light ehp/enemy dps time and 1 med for 1 med ehp/dps time. So for each individual player, the optimal choice is to do more DPS unless everyone fits for the optimal ratio. Because if they primary the high EHP ships they take more DPS for that time, and if they primary the low EHP ships you would be doing less DPS for that amount of time. [oh hey, its kinda like the prisoners dilemma] This is also why armor tanking is a good deal for most ships[1600>invuln except in the case of the Rokh] in fleets and why the tier 3 snipers are typically better than the rest[except in the case of the Apoc, since you can actually fit it and fire it without an injector and t2 RCUs, an abaddon with EGU 4 and AWU 4 needs 2 RCUs to fit megabeams which puts its 154km optimal DPS at 330 and its EHP only a few percent above the apoc, but you've got an injector to feed and the Apoc has 171km opt.] Vote Goumindong for CSM
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:18:00 - [160] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 31/03/2008 23:19:39 Originally by: Goumindong ... call the high DPS low tank ships primary first So essentially you're better off having your fleet commanders flying covops and having typically high DPS ships tanked out the yang, while everone else fits pure gank. -Liang Ed: Though you are, of course, right that HP itself is not the optimal solution, you should forego some DPS in favor of EHP. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Ruciza	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:21:00 - [161] The calculations seem fishy. Too much damage is lost in space.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:27:00 - [162] Originally by: Ruciza The calculations seem fishy. Too much damage is lost in space. Yeah, I'm working on that, actually. I'm going to go ahead and include warp outs when primaried (if you can), squad target calling, and per-turret damage instead of amalgamated damage. It's an amusing project. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:36:00 - [163] Edited by: Goumindong on 31/03/2008 23:41:35 Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 31/03/2008 23:19:39 Originally by: Goumindong ... call the high DPS low tank ships primary first So essentially you're better off having your fleet commanders flying covops and having typically high DPS ships tanked out the yang, while everone else fits pure gank. -Liang Ed: Though you are, of course, right that HP itself is not the optimal solution, you should forego some DPS in favor of EHP. -Liang Not typically high dps ships, typically low EHP, high dps ships. Geddons[lol fleet Geddon], Apocs, Pests, Hyperions[not a great fleet ship]. Rokhs make great fleet ships[screw range, add invulns] Actually, can you run two apocs against each other in the current sim? the awu 4/EGU 4 with 370 dps/61k EHP and the 4/5/3% implant one with 350 dps and 61k EHP. That will really let you know how valuable the volley damage is, since you are running essentially the same ships one in a volley damage setup and one in a dps setup. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:46:00 - [164] Originally by: Goumindong Actually, can you run two apocs against each other in the current sim? the awu 4/EGU 4 with 370 dps/61k EHP and the 4/5/3% implant one with 350 dps and 61k EHP. That will really let you know how valuable the volley damage is, since you are running essentially the same ships one in a volley damage setup and one in a dps setup. Sure, let me go hunt up the setups... there's a few of them. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:06:00 - [165] I need you to post the setup (more specifically: alpha, (rof\|dps), ehp to tremor and aurora, and align time). Also, give me your preference for "clip size" and "recharge time" of an Apoc. ;-) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:08:00 - [166] Edited by: Goumindong on 01/04/2008 00:09:01 vs aurora for all, no setups, just the DPS/EHP on each DPS/Volley EHP 357/2613 65,138 [Tach + plate + 4/5 + implant, 188+25km] 372/1842 65,138 [Mega + Plate + 4/4 + clean, 171+20km] Should make it easier ed: One second on clip/recharge as well as allign. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url]
Zaran Darkstar	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:14:00 - [167] All i know is that so far i was doing PvE with a Tempest and all seemed fine. But due to this thread i decided to go try the Apocalypse for PvE and i am amazed at the damage output. The great optimal helps a lot too since no shots go "wasted" and they hit for full damage! Against Em weak foes like Blood and Sanshas the difference is incredible. They go down at about half the time compaired to the Tempest. (imagine i got lvl 5 at artilleries but not specialisation while i got only 3 in the lasers) But lasers do well also against mercenaries. Against guristas its the thing they are worst at but still the armageddon is able to break the tank of Raven BSes by guns alone whereareas i couldn't do the same in Tempest without the help of medium drones II . So as reply to the original poster i d say that it's not bad idea to train projectiles. They are neeeded for ships like Vagabonds etc So the projectiles are great med and small size versions. For some reason they don't shine that much on PvE compaired to other platforms , they are still sufficient though and don't forget that the Maelstorm has the best offence/defence efficiency being able to tank huge dps with acceptable firepower. All in all i ll train both projectiles and lasers. Also because i want to explore every aspect of the game (i got a caldari/gallente alt too) even if that means slower overall progression for me. That way i ll have a good idea of every race and its traits. Now that i tasted the firepower of the Apocalypse i admit that for me is more fun ship cause is very pleasing to see the enemy ships drop in a few volleys but for missions where you get more aggroed the Maelstorm is clearly better. So i think both styles are usefull and it is good to see that in PvE at least the races are balanced enough. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:25:00 - [168] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar For some reason they don't shine that much on PvE compaired to other platforms , they are still sufficient though and don't forget that the Maelstorm has the best offence/defence efficiency being able to tank huge dps with acceptable firepower. For PvE, due to resist types, projectiles will usually be outclassed at a given range for DPS except against Angels. PP and EMP ammos come pre nerfed, such that rails will beat them out vs bloods/sansha/gurisas/serp/mercs. Titanium sabot is better than hybrid ammo vs Mordus, unless the hybrid use can use plutonium or anti matter. Compared to laser crystals, obviously the lasers pwn agaisnt blood raiders and sansha (and mercs oddly), but its about even for a given range mod vs guristas and serp. If you like projectiles and want to run missions, use a minmatar agent.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:26:00 - [169] 1v1: Tach Apoc was destroyed at 174 Mega Apoc remaining: 1 Tach Apocs remaining: 0 5v5: Mega Apoc was destroyed at 29 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 35 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 79 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 81 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 134 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 140 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 219 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 251 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 365 Mega Apoc remaining: 1 Tach Apocs remaining: 0 20v20: Mega Apoc remaining: 3 Tach Apocs remaining: 0 200v200: Mega Apoc remaining: 32 Tach Apocs remaining: 0 -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:28:00 - [170] Edited by: Goumindong on 01/04/2008 00:28:52 What about if they can warp out? http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url]
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:33:00 - [171] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 01/04/2008 00:28:52 What about if they can warp out? I'm still writing that part... mostly because I got stuck on the squad calling problem (which IMO will be interesting in its own right). -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:44:00 - [172] 1v1: Mega Apoc was destroyed at 1090 Mega Apoc remaining: 0 Tach Apocs remaining: 1 5v5: Tach Apoc was destroyed at 40 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 155 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 319 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 467 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 490 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 615 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 865 Mega Apoc remaining: 0 Tach Apocs remaining: 3 10v10:Mega Apoc was destroyed at 14 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 14 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 40 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 65 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 103 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 109 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 199 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 268 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 310 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 380 Mega Apoc was destroyed at 388 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 390 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 405 Tach Apoc was destroyed at 420 Mega Apoc remaining: 6 Tach Apocs remaining: 0 20v20: Mega Apoc remaining: 0 Tach Apocs remaining: 10 100v100: Mega Apoc remaining: 15 Tach Apocs remaining: 0 250v250: Mega Apoc remaining: 40 Tach Apocs remaining: 0 The 20v20 anomaly is because of a peculiarity of the test system (specifically, how it favors high alpha ships). Overall, though, it looks like a safer bet to go with mega beam apocs... if it weren't for the range. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:46:00 - [173] Do you have the code/cals for this, would be interesting to run through to find optimal setups. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.01 00:48:00 - [174] Originally by: Goumindong Do you have the code/cals for this, would be interesting to run through to find optimal setups. I do. Send me an evemail and we'll work something out. We have brought a whole new age of EFT'ery. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
AstroPhobic STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.04.01 03:29:00 - [175] Originally by: Goumindong No, tachs are roughly 35% short of a 1400 II, its lower than 1200 IIs. Its only when you have a damage bonus do they get close Tachs run nearly half the rate of fire too. The fact is, both minmatar "snipers" (Mael, Pest) need ROF, and in the pest's case damage bonuses just to compete in terms of DPS, while the Apoc gets it's lovely new built in capacitor, capacitor BONUS, and optimal bonus.
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.04.01 07:53:00 - [176] Originally by: Derek Sigres Okay, i'm almost convinced. In this case it still isn't modeling an infinite number of ships it's modeling any number of ships. Seems to me that there is a disctinct difference. Please stop talking nonsense and go take math lessons. You are making me sick. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:14:00 - [177] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 31/03/2008 16:56:36 Originally by: Kagura Nikon No, Alpha is NOT a myth: Alpha proof Um, wait. So if I'm reading this graph correctly (bear in mind that I'm color blind), the Tempest had the second largest alpha, and was always behind that first striker. Additionally, the Tempest was "catching up" to all the rest after only one volley. One volley where it has worse tracking and optimal - and is likely operating in falloff to reach the same range as the other snipers. Got it. Minnie Alpha is totally not an urban legend. -Liang I woudl dare to say No. Youa re not reading coorret. Maelstrom starts with clear advantage on other ships. TAchyon boats surpass him every few shots but maesltrom re gains lead when it shoots again. MAesltorm only loosses definetely the lead after the 4th shot. That is almost 40 secodns of fight. A VERY long time where almost any enemy would be dead. Bear in mind those amarr ships are using tachyons, I wil put a mega beam evrsion so you can compare also. More alpha Even with haigher DPS, the armageddon and APOC are supplanted byt the maelstrom every few shots. Only really taking the lead at the 48th second. An eternity. That also shows that tachyons are so mcuh better than mega beams, mostly because they have good alpha. Yes alpha is way less important than in past, but is still important. If you are in a maesltrom and your fleet kill an enemy on time you dealt 2 shot, you may be dure you are among the ones that dealt more damage to him. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:19:00 - [178] BTW what i think we need is some changes to enhance alpha. Like Change Tempest and mael rof into damage. so temeps thas 10% damage per level and maesl 5% damage perlevel. THEN the alpha strike will be very superior and enough to be the difference. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Naomi Knight Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:41:00 - [179] Originally by: Kagura Nikon BTW what i think we need is some changes to enhance alpha. Like Change Tempest and mael rof into damage. so temeps thas 10% damage per level and maesl 5% damage perlevel. THEN the alpha strike will be very superior and enough to be the difference. First good post in this thread.
Saietor Blackgreen	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:20:00 - [180] Originally by: Kagura Nikon BTW what i think we need is some changes to enhance alpha. Like Change Tempest and mael rof into damage. so temeps thas 10% damage per level and maesl 5% damage perlevel. THEN the alpha strike will be very superior and enough to be the difference. This will reduce DPS. -5% ROF > +5% damage (33% vs 25% increase in DPS at level 5). But I can see where you're going. Ships are fine though, its artillery that has problems. Why not just change artillery? +33% damage mod, +33% shot duration?

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