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large artillery, why train it?

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Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:20:00 - [241] Originally by: Gamesguy Uhh why would you perma mwd? The mwd is only for getting out of bubbles, you dont need more than one or two cycles. And why is the apoc not firing its guns? Because they're burning out of a bubble. I think it's to show the absolutely ludicrous amount of cap that comes from being in an Apoc, and that even at 45% cap, it does better than the Maelstrom. I think. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:02:00 - [242] Originally by: Goumindong Ahh, assuming you use the apoc fitting that has a bunch of cap mods on it and so its 20% behind in hit points and behind in DPS, and only slightly higher optimal with lower falloff. Yes assuming you use that fitting that ends with slightly MORE dps than the Maelstrom if you consider reloading time (maelstrom has actually 345 DPS with 3 Gyros if you compute reloading intervals), twice the tracking which means WAY MORE dps against cruiser size targets, and which has 13.5% lower EHP and is about 20% cheaper. A fleet of Apocalypses will still win against a fleet of maelstrom of the same size though. And if you TAKE the MWD from your fitting the apocalypses will annihilate the Maelstroms, no matter what you take or put on the later (faction and Officer mods excluded, obviouslly). ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:06:00 - [243] Originally by: Etho Demerzel if you TAKE the MWD from your fitting The "M" in "MWD" stands for "Mandatory". -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:38:00 - [244] Just found a "cute" Megabeam fitting for Gulmo: Highs: 8x Megabeams II Med: Quad Lift, 2x SBII (Optimal), Cap Recharger II Low: 2x 1600mm RT Plating, 2x HS II, Adaptative Nano Plating II, DCII, Cap Power Relay II Rigs: ACR, CCC, Trimark Cap Stable, targets 205 km, hits 149 km optimal (More than the maelstrom...), 331 dps (slightly less than the 345 from the Maelstrom), has 83K EHP and will SLAUGHTER Maelstroms in fleet fights... Liang, could you put this against the maelstrom in your simulation? Apo: EHP: 82225 dps: 331 Maelstrom: EHP: 72112 dps: 380 while the clip lasts, 345 in the long run Maelstrom fitting (probably the one Gulmo used): Highs: 8x 1400mm Med: Quad Lift, Inv Field II, 2x SB II, 2x TC II Lows: 3x Gyros II, 1 PDU II, 1 DC II Rigs: 3x CD Field Extenders II ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:47:00 - [245] Another fitting: High and mediums: same as last post Lows: 2x 1600mm RT, 3x HS II, CPR II, DC II Rigs: ACR, 2x CCC EHP: 67563 DPS: 372 Although the combination of EHP and DPS from the previous fitting is slightly better as a general rule, this one has more damage and is better for smaller engagements. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Clone 231B School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:04:00 - [246] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Holy crap, maelstrom does double the Alpha strike and double the fall-off. Not bad.
Lrd Byron Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.03 07:42:00 - [247] High alpha strike is generally useless except in situations where you are killing off large percentages of your enemies fleet per volley, which is to say almost none, and certainly none where large numbers of battleships are involved. Other than that, whatever slight gain you get from being able to kill more of you enemies per volley (not per second) is likely wasted in the form of overkill.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.04.03 08:10:00 - [248] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 03/04/2008 08:11:57 Originally by: Etho Demerzel 100v100 Goum's Mael remaining: 0 Etho's Apoc remaining: 55 10v10: Maelstrom was destroyed at 15 Apocalypse was destroyed at 19 Maelstrom was destroyed at 31 Apocalypse was destroyed at 39 Maelstrom was destroyed at 53 Apocalypse was destroyed at 68 Maelstrom was destroyed at 74 Maelstrom was destroyed at 95 Apocalypse was destroyed at 117 Maelstrom was destroyed at 121 Maelstrom was destroyed at 148 Apocalypse was destroyed at 176 Maelstrom was destroyed at 180 Maelstrom was destroyed at 212 Maelstrom was destroyed at 243 Goum's Mael remaining: 0 Etho's Apoc remaining: 5 Looks roughly like its "twice" as good as a Maelstrom for application. It better be for the price though. -Liang Ed: Also, be sure to engage at no more than 150km, because you'll be ****ed otherwise. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Saietor Blackgreen	Posted - 2008.04.03 09:48:00 - [249] Well, despite the fact that I fought hard against your alliance in Branch war, and with hope that forum humor is well understood on these pages, i say this: "Liang, can we have babies, like, right now?"
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:41:00 - [250] I would say suicide ganking in empire but they use t1 arty for that ... meh . Uber idea solves all !!
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:42:00 - [251] Originally by: Liang Nuren Ed: Also, be sure to engage at no more than 150km, because you'll be ****ed otherwise. Also, sadly, I wasn't able to quickly come up with a rigged Mael that could consistently beat this setup at 150km. But, the setup is limited to 150km (for what it's worth). Actually the damages we used are for optimum in both battleships. That means 140 km for the maelstrom. Maelstrom has 140+44, Apo has 149+22. At 150 Maelstrom should have about 10%-15% less damage and the Apocalypse would have full damage. At 160 Both should have 85% of this damage. At 170 Maelstrom has about 75% of its damage yet and Apocalypse damage is 50%. At 180 Maelstrom has 50% of its damage and Apocalypse is near 6%. At 200 Maelstrom has 15%, Apocalypse is near 0%. At 220 Maelstrom is at 6%. More than this and both are near 0. So Maelstrom beats the setup from about 170-220. This Apocalypse setup beats the maelstrom for sure, from 0 to 165. From 165-170 the setups must catch on it other. If you are going to engage at more than 165, you can use my Tachyon Setup though: EHP: 64469 Hits at: 163+25 Damage: 357 up to 163 ~300 at 175 170 at 190 90 at 200 Against Maelstrom: EHP: 72112 Damage: 345 DPS Hits at: 140+44 345 up to 140 293 at 160 220 at 175 125 at 190 85 at 200 Prices are: Apocalypse: 85M ACR: 40M CCC: 20M Tri-Mark(Megabeam) or CCC(Tackyon): 20M Fittings(Megabeam or Tackyon): 30M Total: 195M Maelstrom: 125M 3x CDFE: 60M Fittings: 30M Total: 215M The Apocalypse price is roughly the same for the Tachyon model. So I don't understand "It better be for the price"... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Naomi Knight	Posted - 2008.04.03 11:45:00 - [252] What kind of game are you playing? Im sure it is not Eve online, so why are you using this forum? Pls leave EFT warriors.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.04.03 11:53:00 - [253] Edited by: Ath Amon on 03/04/2008 11:53:40 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Maelstrom: 125M 3x CDFE: 60M Fittings: 30M Total: 215M The Apocalypse price is roughly the same for the Tachyon model. So I don't understand "It better be for the price"... you need to fit an anc here so is more like 1 anc: 40m 2 cdfe: 40m ------------ total 80m and you have 15% less shields so i suppose something like 65k hps to get more tank you have to go plated Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 12:06:00 - [254] Your maelstrom fitting sucks. First off since, we are spending lots of money on the apoc, we can spend the same on the maelstrom. [Maelstrom, New Setup 1] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ancillary Current Router I 380 DPS, 73k EHP, 87k EHP vs aurora OR [Maelstrom, New Setup 1] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ancillary Current Router I 338 DPS, 85.7k EHP, 105k EHP vs aurora And its got much more range than your apoc Vote Goumindong for CSM
chrisss0r 13 BLOODRAIN SYNDICATE	Posted - 2008.04.03 12:41:00 - [255] so again u complain that a tier 3 bs is a bit more effective than your t2 one?
Ath Amon Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.03 12:43:00 - [256] Originally by: Goumindong [Maelstrom, New Setup 1] Ancillary Current Router I oh i see that mael popped an anc rig... you said mael no rigs, can you do that with 1400mm and mwd? problem is that you cant fit a mael whit mwd, 1400mm and plate whitout anc rig so your statement mael unrigged vs apoc rigged is bit flawed you can also pretty much do a t1 "noob" apoc that can compete with a mael using t1 tachs and faction ammos funny thing is that you get mostly same tankability as the mael, just less dps for bit more range, pretty solid ship for laser users that cant use t2 guns yet... now where is the proj ship that can do that? Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.03 12:59:00 - [257] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 03/04/2008 12:59:50 The lag factor is important too. Don't forget the lag. Maelstorm needs no cap which is good. Makes you feel more comfortable. I d say that till the reloading time the Maelstorm is a bit better. But when you reload you lose all advantage and more. Remember the huge lag in fleet battles. The reloading that will occur equals as if the Malestorm would be jammed for 5 minutes.In the meantime the Apoc will keep on shooting. Guess who wins. If there was no lag during reload Maelstorm would have infact the dps the EFT claims to have. But we all know how lag factor works. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Kelbesque Crystalis Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:04:00 - [258] Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 03/04/2008 17:11:54 We can compare setups with a microscope till we are blue in the face. Tier this, cap/reload that. The real question most of us have is "Does alpha matter?". And so far we haven't seen any situation where the alpha has made any difference in the outcome, which brings the next question: "Does artillery need more Alpha and how much?". The biggest complaints with artillery are: a) clip size, both for loss of DPS and for getting screwed the worst by lag b) alpha doesn't count for anything. You can easily give artillery more alpha and a bigger effective clip (more pew pew time, less reload on the same # of rounds) by tweaking the damage mod and ROF while keeping DPS the same. As an experiment, if we were to give artillery more alpha, how much more does it need to make a difference? We've already seen how in a face off vs a ship with 1/2 the volley damage of artillery how the alpha didn't make a difference in the fight. How much is too much such that they would be OP in terms of BBQ'ing small craft? The HP buff was obviously done for a reason, but since then, other changes (script nerf) have made it harder for sniper ships to fillet small craft at range. If we gave Artillery 50% more alpha (and pre-reload DPS the same) would it make a difference?
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:27:00 - [259] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis If we gave Artillery 50% more alpha (and keep pre-reload DPS the same) would it make a difference? in my opinion not, you will get bigger numbers but ships have 2x maybe even more hps than before hps buff and rigs eve have very tigh numbers between weapons, there are games when alpha weapons have refire timers 20-30x superior to fast dps ones, the difference there is clear and alpha is a real balancing factor but in eve is not doable alpha or even better focused dmg can be extremely good when you can damage the opponent in a single volley whitout destroying him, but in eve such difference in alpha will mean to instapop or 2volley someone and this is kinda a bad design as no one likes to be killed before being able to do anything :P this is imo main reason because alpha is (and prob will ever be) kinda useless in eve, is a "problem" of game mechanic, of how ships and combat are handled Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Kelbesque Crystalis Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:03:00 - [260] Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 03/04/2008 20:03:40 Originally by: Ath Amon alpha or even better focused dmg can be extremely good when you can damage the opponent in a single volley whitout destroying him, but in eve such difference in alpha will mean to instapop or 2volley someone and this is kinda a bad design as no one likes to be killed before being able to do anything :P But realistically, with the setups we have now, the window of ships that can be 2-3 volleyed in a Projectile sniper that CAN'T be DPS'd down in the same time window in a Beam/Rail sniper is very small. We are talking ~3k hp for a 1-4s window before the lower alpha guns would achieve roughly the same effect. Anything that would die to that small of a difference would be prohibitively hard to track (script nerf), at which point its a crap shoot as to which sniper could take them down. After 3-4 Projectile volleys, the artillery has little to no advantage that isnt afforded to it via raw DPS.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:24:00 - [261] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 03/04/2008 20:03:40 Originally by: Ath Amon alpha or even better focused dmg can be extremely good when you can damage the opponent in a single volley whitout destroying him, but in eve such difference in alpha will mean to instapop or 2volley someone and this is kinda a bad design as no one likes to be killed before being able to do anything :P But realistically, with the setups we have now, the window of ships that can be 2-3 volleyed in a Projectile sniper that CAN'T be DPS'd down in the same time window in a Beam/Rail sniper is very small. We are talking ~3k hp for a 1-4s window before the lower alpha guns would achieve roughly the same effect. Anything that would die to that small of a difference would be prohibitively hard to track (script nerf), at which point its a crap shoot as to which sniper could take them down. After 3-4 Projectile volleys, the artillery has little to no advantage that isnt afforded to it via raw DPS. in fact is why a boost of 50% to alpha and rof rebalance to keep same dps will be pretty useless, you are not going to kill anything with 4.5k hp difference in 1-4s over 3k... alpha in eve just dont work or to work will be OP and not fun (for the one that get hit :P) as instapop/2 volley is not that great and a thing that devs dont want at all Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:31:00 - [262] Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 03/04/2008 20:31:36 Originally by: Ath Amon in fact is why a boost of 50% to alpha and rof rebalance to keep same dps will be pretty useless, you are not going to kill anything with 4.5k hp difference in 1-4s over 3k... alpha in eve just dont work or to work will be OP and not fun (for the one that get hit :P) as instapop/2 volley is not that great and a thing that devs dont want at all If a 50% boost in alpha isnt OP, then why can't artillery have it to a) reduce the clip size problems and b) not lose so much DPS to reload compared to other races? I bet 50% more alpha could make some of the 50 vs 50 stand off sniper fights go a little differently. Or at least give the Artillery a 4-5 shot advantage instead of 2-3.
Ath Amon Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:53:00 - [263] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 03/04/2008 20:31:36 Originally by: Ath Amon in fact is why a boost of 50% to alpha and rof rebalance to keep same dps will be pretty useless, you are not going to kill anything with 4.5k hp difference in 1-4s over 3k... alpha in eve just dont work or to work will be OP and not fun (for the one that get hit :P) as instapop/2 volley is not that great and a thing that devs dont want at all If a 50% boost in alpha isnt OP, then why can't artillery have it to a) reduce the clip size problems and b) not lose so much DPS to reload compared to other races? I bet 50% more alpha could make some of the 50 vs 50 stand off sniper fights go a little differently. Or at least give the Artillery a 4-5 shot advantage instead of 2-3. will not change anything if dps stays the same for that time, you will not get upper hand for 4-5 volleys but just for the first one as it is now, maybe you can gain few secs but not much. artyes have also not just a problem of low dps/useless alpha but they are lowest range lowest tracking too, imo they need a big rework with a real niche to make them competitive. as said even in some posts ago i'll like them turned as burst weapon but that is just my taste Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Saietor Blackgreen	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:23:00 - [264] Originally by: Ath Amon will not change anything if dps stays the same for that time, you will not get upper hand for 4-5 volleys but just for the first one as it is now, maybe you can gain few secs but not much. Give them bursts! More ROF, but much longer reload time. This initial burst can be made long enough to avoid problems of instaBBQing cruisers, but hardhitiing enough to have claar advantage in damage untill reload actually hits.
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:23:00 - [265] How can you make it a burst weapon without huge alpha?
Hellraiza666 Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:45:00 - [266] ♥ 1400mm II
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:46:00 - [267] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis How can you make it a burst weapon without huge alpha? By speeding up RoF, while cutting clip size. And/or increasing the reload timer. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:50:00 - [268] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 03/04/2008 21:55:33 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2008 12:16:31 Your maelstrom fitting sucks. Both your fittings still lose from the Megabeam Apocalypse, up to around 160 km. And from the Tachyon Apocalypse at 175 km or more. And I made a omni tank because I intended to actually USE it in fleets. But if you insist I can make a fitting with much higher resistances against explosive and kin. One more thing. The correct dps for your fittings are 345 and 306, btw. You love to "forget" reload time. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Naomi Knight Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.04 07:15:00 - [269] Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen Originally by: Ath Amon will not change anything if dps stays the same for that time, you will not get upper hand for 4-5 volleys but just for the first one as it is now, maybe you can gain few secs but not much. Give them bursts! More ROF, but much longer reload time. This initial burst can be made long enough to avoid problems of instaBBQing cruisers, but hardhitiing enough to have claar advantage in damage untill reload actually hits. Yes yes make them only station reloadable and ammo for like 2-3 mins but increased alpha and dmg :P
Mutabae	Posted - 2008.04.04 12:21:00 - [270] Originally by: Lrd Byron High alpha strike is generally useless except in situations where you are killing off large percentages of your enemies fleet per volley, which is to say almost none, and certainly none where large numbers of battleships are involved. Other than that, whatever slight gain you get from being able to kill more of you enemies per volley (not per second) is likely wasted in the form of overkill. stupid much? They're called fleet fights and you've obviously never been in one 25 battleships vs one battleship= 1 or 2 volley death. Alpha is king in fleet fights since your ship WON'T shoot at one target for long at all. Most of your time is spent switching targets, not killing targets. You are ignorant. STFU. Stick to pve so you don't annoy the rest of us.

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