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Tatsue Niko	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:29:00 - [1] I was thinking about some 425mm + armor tanking,i dont know if its good...any tips on fittings? Tatsue..
ZelRox	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:43:00 - [2] I think you will have serious problems fitting those rails, even with top engi, elec, weapon upgrade skills. ---------------------- I wanna tuc tuc ..
Xavier Perez	Posted - 2004.04.15 15:47:00 - [3] try some 1400 mm howies or 8 heavy beam lasers.
Bella Verde	Posted - 2004.04.15 18:12:00 - [4] 8 Large Energy Neutralizers is always very effective. Or 6 + 2 Siege Launchers
Hellek	Posted - 2004.04.15 18:48:00 - [5] Edited by: Hellek on 15/04/2004 18:49:45 I recommend to get a Raven or a Tempest for PvP, that's what I did. If you want to know why, there is a lot for you to read (well, without all the flames it would be 2 pages only) http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=72182 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=71848 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=72609 Otherwise, if you have no other possibilities, you have to use hybrids or projectiles (blasters, 425rails or 1400), where you of course lack a 20% damage bonus which tempest/megathron have on those guns, and a 20% tracking or a 20% ROF bonus. Neutralizers or Nosferatus are a good option, you won't deal much damage though and killing a hardened target with only 2 launchers can take a while, even if it is unable to repair or shieldboost. If you (i.e. for RP reasons) want to use Lasers, I think a close or med range setup with Dual Heavy Beam or Pulse is the only option, with Megabeams you will run out of cap soon and Tachs are even worse.
Kyroki Tirpellan	Posted - 2004.04.15 19:28:00 - [6] Try using up to 8x Dual Heavy Pulse/Beam Lasers (don't mix though) in the highs, the usual stuff in mids (Shield Booster, maybe a tracking comp, sensor booster, cap rechargers or injectors - whatever) and for the lows: 2-4 Heat Sinks and rest cap relays. I have not personally tried this setup (can't even fly an Apoc) so I advise you to test it out on Chaos. I have heard of similar setups taking down battleships in almost no time flat. The Apoc is underestimated today... Peace through love, understanding and superior firepower. Real men structure tank!
Hellek	Posted - 2004.04.15 19:46:00 - [7] putting in a lot of CPRs will make the shield-booster almost useless (not yet but soon(tm), when the CPR nerf comes in effect on TQ. Testing on chaos is a good idea, especially cause it's already in effect there)
Squirrel	Posted - 2004.04.15 20:30:00 - [8] dont listen to hellek.. he is an uber noob that always whines about an apoc.... put on 4 tachs 1 heavy beam 2 launchers 1 L shield boost 2 hardeners 1 warp disruptor 4 heat sink II's 3 cpr's = pwnage machine _______________________________________________ Carfax > guys, please dont pvp here, it messes up the avoid pd kill zones autopilot option
Hellek	Posted - 2004.04.15 21:11:00 - [9] Edited by: Hellek on 15/04/2004 22:04:18 I am neither a noob, nor do I whine. And at least I know how to behave. Squirrel, its really childish how you do. Furthermore that setup sucks, if you don't believe me, just try it out. PS: The setup was what I used on TQ until they nerfed the Lasers (not with T2 heatsinks obviously, but those don't turn a sucking setup into something good, they just give a nice bonus, not more) so I know what I am talking about (in contrast to you, you obviously got not the slightest idea how Amarr ships and Lasers work and don't work). Your CEO should be ashamed of having members like you. You are pretty much the opposite of what the name m0o stands for.
Mr Popov	Posted - 2004.04.15 23:01:00 - [10] Quote: I am neither a noob, nor do I whine. And at least I know how to behave. Squirrel, its really childish how you do... ...so I know what I am talking about (in contrast to you, you obviously got not the slightest idea how Amarr ships and Lasers work and don't work). Your CEO should be ashamed of having members like you. You are pretty much the opposite of what the name m0o stands for. I am neither Amarr nor do I use an Apoc, but that statement above seems hypocritical to me. However I'm sure Hellek... nevermind
Hellek	Posted - 2004.04.16 00:25:00 - [11] Edited by: Hellek on 16/04/2004 00:26:44 well, I must admit that my posts are sometimes not as mature as I'd like them to be, I am so sick of all those newbies who flame everybody and post so much nonsense that it from time to time happens that I express myself in a pretty direct way. I think its better to resume doing what I have been doing for months: Ignoring the flames and focus on the facts. Unfortunately some people post so dumb stuff that I really can't resist All ph3ar Squirrel teh ebil pirate and his 4 Tachs (okay, again a hypocritical post, its just so hard to resist)
Silverlancer	Posted - 2004.04.16 01:02:00 - [12] Quote: dont listen to hellek.. he is an uber noob that always whines about an apoc.... put on 4 tachs 1 heavy beam 2 launchers 1 L shield boost 2 hardeners 1 warp disruptor 4 heat sink II's 3 cpr's = pwnage machine The last heat sink II will do only 25% of its normal amount. Ditch it, get another CPR.
Ringlord	Posted - 2004.04.16 01:07:00 - [13] Quote: dont listen to hellek.. he is an uber noob that always whines about an apoc.... put on 4 tachs 1 heavy beam 2 launchers 1 L shield boost 2 hardeners 1 warp disruptor 4 heat sink II's 3 cpr's = pwnage machine NO! No that is stupid u cant keep that running long enought to kill a bs and u cant lock fast enought to kill a cruiser or a frig! U NEWB
Squirrel	Posted - 2004.04.16 01:31:00 - [14] Edited by: Squirrel on 16/04/2004 01:33:52 Quote: Furthermore that setup sucks, if you don't believe me, just try it out. actually this is what i use...among many other skilled apoc users... unlike yourself.. Quote: NO! No that is stupid u cant keep that running long enought to kill a bs and u cant lock fast enought to kill a cruiser or a frig! U NEWB quite on the contrary my wanna be pirate friend... u can tell that to the tens of tanked ravens i have pwned in this as well... please take note im not a noob and have maxed cap skills.. so i can run this unlike you for quite some feckin time.... Edit::: btw i can lock cruisers fine if they don;t mwd into warp cuz maybe i have sig analysis 5 unlike you and btw.. why would i be concerned about catching frigs if im in a bs.... er actually i'll ask another question... why do u show yourself in public? Quote: The last heat sink II will do only 25% of its normal amount. Ditch it, get another CPR. i would, however considering that i have no cap problems with this i dont see the need to... but thx anyways... Quote: All ph3ar Squirrel teh ebil pirate and his 4 Tachs oh and dont forget that heavy mod beam...and please please i will take any apoc setup from your ****ty warehouse of "great ideas" and plz stop talking on the forums, u make the apoc look horrible.. _______________________________________________ Carfax > guys, please dont pvp here, it messes up the avoid pd kill zones autopilot option
Hellek	Posted - 2004.04.16 11:45:00 - [15] Quote: quite on the contrary my wanna be pirate friend... u can tell that to the tens of tanked ravens i have pwned in this as well... please take note im not a noob and have maxed cap skills.. so i can run this unlike you for quite some feckin time.... Having cap skills on lvl5 is a must for Apoc pilots anyway, and therefore most have them, and they don't have the cap to fire those things for long enough. You really make yourself so ridiciolous. Quote: Quote: All ph3ar Squirrel teh ebil pirate and his 4 Tachs oh and dont forget that heavy mod beam...and please please i will take any apoc setup from your ****ty warehouse of "great ideas" and plz stop talking on the forums, u make the apoc look horrible.. Erm, "warehouse of great ideas"??? I never said they were great setup, Apoc sucks and so do setups that are fitted on that ship. Still they would beat your "pwnage machine" as you call it in no time. By the way, your ingame-info says you are flying a Megathron anyway (unless you entered stuff which is not true in the bio), so please, please, stop spamming us with your stupidity. You just cause confusion to those who really don't know how to make setups, I am glad that Silverlancer and Ringlord also posted how bad your setup really is. And as I said, if you don't believe me, try it out. If you ever were in a fight with equal numbers with that setup, you would be so dead ... so my guess is that you never were. Learn making setups, learn fighting, and until then STOP ENLIGHTENING US WITH YOUR GREAT IDEAS. PS: About the heavy mod beam: Yeah, a cruiser weapon on a BS, great idea. What do you want to do with it? Take out frigates at close range (probably even this does not work well)? You need a radio-crystal just to make range equal to your Tachs (if they use MF, otherwise they will have more range in any case), and if you check how much damage a medium radio crystals deals, even somebody like you should not need much time until finding out that it is pretty useless. (and if you don't care about range and use another crystal it won't change much either)
Shirei	Posted - 2004.04.16 12:23:00 - [16] Quote: PS: About the heavy mod beam: Yeah, a cruiser weapon on a BS, great idea. What do you want to do with it? Take out frigates at close range (probably even this does not work well)? You need a radio-crystal just to make range equal to your Tachs (if they use MF, otherwise they will have more range in any case), and if you check how much damage a medium radio crystals deals, even somebody like you should not need much time until finding out that it is pretty useless. (and if you don't care about range and use another crystal it won't change much either) In case you are interested, a Heavy Modulated Beam does an incredible 10% less damage over time than a Megabeam (although at half the range). Considering they use less than a tenth of the powergrid, that's not all that bad of a deal, if you want to fit as many high-powergrid guns (tachs/megabeams) as possible.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.04.16 12:32:00 - [17] Well, his setup hits way way harder over range than a 'pest with 5 howies. I think he should be able to sustain his lasers in group or fleet battles - but I doubt that it would make a good pvp setup for small, short range encounters like 2 vs 2. But, that's not what the Apoc was build for anyway.
Jarjar	Posted - 2004.04.16 12:48:00 - [18] Quote: The last heat sink II will do only 25% of its normal amount. Ditch it, get another CPR. Lets do some math. Say 4 tachs do 1000 damage every 10 secs (true or not (it's not btw), just to make the maths easy!). With 3 Heat Sink II's we get 1242.66 dmg every 7.765 secs or 160 dmg/sec from 100. With 4 Heat sink II's we get 1309.41 dmg every 7.306 secs or 179.2 dmg/sec from 100. Difference = 12% damage over time (between the 3rd and 4th) while the first heat sink gives about 22.9%. So it's a lot more than 25%, more like "only half".
Shirei	Posted - 2004.04.16 12:49:00 - [19] Strangely enough, smaller short-range engagements seem to be what the Apoc is best at because it has to give up little of its defensive potential to fit shorter range weapons.
Hellek	Posted - 2004.04.16 12:56:00 - [20] Edited by: Hellek on 16/04/2004 13:00:43 Anyway, instead of 4 Tachs, I would rather fit a lot of Megabeams. And the setup will have cap problems and for that and the other reasons me and others pointed out I still think it sucks/is a noob setup. I was wrong about the damage the Mod. Heavy Beam deals but range still is an important problem it has so my opinion about cruiser weapons on Battleships remains unchanged.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.04.16 12:56:00 - [21] Don't think so Shirei. Well, of course, it depends on how you fit the ship - but you'll never reach the close range potential of a Raven or Megathron. The Apoc's much better for fleet battles at long range - where defense isn't ultimatively needed, because you warp out when being hit too hard. And remember, these 4 Tachs have high base values compared to the other lasers - so they benifit much more than megabeams or else from heat sinks. In another setup I wouldn't bother to fit them though - they'd be too inefficient.
Jarjar	Posted - 2004.04.16 12:59:00 - [22] Also FYI... 4 tachyons = 17000MW powergrid, 240 cpu, 40 cap/sec, 1.36x damage/sec 5 megabeam = 16250MW powergrid, 275 cpu, 38.8 cap/sec, 1.527x damage/sec Tracking, optimal range and falloff range are all identical- Now, lets see some arguments why 4 tachs is better than 5 mega beams, there's only ONE downside and that's a few CPU units (with skills the diff is 26.25 units). I just don't see why tachs are better.
Hellek	Posted - 2004.04.16 13:22:00 - [23] Quote: Don't think so Shirei. Well, of course, it depends on how you fit the ship - but you'll never reach the close range potential of a Raven or Megathron. The Apoc's much better for fleet battles at long range - where defense isn't ultimatively needed, because you warp out when being hit too hard. And remember, these 4 Tachs have high base values compared to the other lasers - so they benifit much more than megabeams or else from heat sinks. In another setup I wouldn't bother to fit them though - they'd be too inefficient. I agree about that Apoc can't compete with Raven or Megathron on close range. What I disagree with is that fleet battles don't need defense. When several people fire on you, your shield/armor goes down very quickly and it can happen that, even if you are not scrambled, you won't make it into warp in time. Especially lag makes it important to be able to take a lot of damage as the shield/armor status you see can be delayed up to a minute and more (and entering warp as well). So I still think for PvP you should get a Tempest or a Raven. Raven owns Apoc on close range and Tempest owns it on long range ...
qrac	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:09:00 - [24] Edited by: qrac on 16/04/2004 14:13:23 the config squirrel posted is VERY similar to this setup: hi: 6 megabeams + launchers mid: same as squirrel's low: 2 power diags, 2 cap relays, 3 heat sinks the cap usage is about the same (the megabeam setup is slightly better). the damageoutput is about the same (the megabeam setup is slightly better). the cap recharge is about the same (the megabeam setup is slightly better). it's not a crap setup but a megabeam setup is much better imo when u add up all bits and pieces. EDIT: the megabeam setup is not possible without named modules. dunno if squirrel's setup is.. too tried to check. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
Shirei	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:26:00 - [25] Edited by: Shirei on 16/04/2004 14:28:12 A Blaster Apoc can certainly beat a Blasterthron at close range - at least that is what most people flying them tend to agree on. It has pretty much the same damage output (because you can fit more blasters to counteract the Mega damage bonus) and better defense because it has more armor. For mid range (10-15k), you could go with pulse lasers: So for example: 4 Megapulse 4 Dual Heavy Pulse 4 cap recharger II in mid 2 L armor repairers, 2 hardeners, 2 heat sinks, 1 cap relay in low That gives you very nice firepower and should give you enough cap to run all guns and one armor repairer indefinitely (or all guns and both repairers for a few minutes), which seems a decent compromise between offense and defense. If you want to go for even better defense, swap one or both heat sinks for a third hardener and/or a cap relay (which should allow it to run all guns and repairers virtually forever). That would give you still decent firepower, but with a defense that is very hard to get through for anything less than a Blasterthron.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:27:00 - [26] Never ever said they'd be better than megabeams. I by myself prefer megabeams too. Quote: I wouldn't bother to fit them though - they'd be too inefficient. All I was saying is that they'd profit more from damage mods than other lasers. Please people - first: read second: think third: write This way you don't make yourself a fool.
Shirei	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:34:00 - [27] Quote: All I was saying is that they'd profit more from damage mods than other lasers. How exactly are Tachs supposed to profit more from damage mods than other lasers? All damage mods are percentage based and give about 23% bonus to damage over time to any gun of the corresponding type. The only case where Tachs would profit more would be when you can kill your target in a single volley, but that is rather rare, unless you are just shooting frigs.
snotty	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:44:00 - [28] and with equal amount of guns the tach profits the most, eg 4 beams 4x nosferatu
Shirei	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:48:00 - [29] Well yeah, although they don't really profit more, but do more damage to start with. ;)
SKiNNiEH	Posted - 2004.04.16 15:45:00 - [30] Lots of people go with tachyons.. i personally prefer Mega Pulse lasers. -------

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